Sid: Haven’t you felt that there’s something missing? Well I believe there’s a spiritual DNA in Jewish people and a spiritual DNA in Gentile Christians. And it’s just like there’s a different calling for males and for females, but you need both to have a good marriage. Well, you need the Jewish anointing and the Gentile Christian anoint to come together to have the full body of Messiah. Why, because we’re about ready to experience the greatest outpouring of God’s Spirit in planet Earth. Now we don’t know the day or hour that the Lord’s going to return, but I believe there’s going to be so many people come into the Lord that’s why this week we’re featuring our One New Man Kit which I’ll speak of in a little while. My guest Deborah Shambora, I’m speaking to her at her home in a city right outside of Phoenix, Arizona. And Deborah tell me what happened to you when this horse went slightly mischugah that’s a Hebrew word crazy and started trampling you?
Deborah: Oh, I like that word mischugah I’m going to have to use that, I haven’t heard that one before.
Sid: Well, I mean the King of the Jews came up with that one. So what happened to you, I mean we’re making light of it but this was a very serious moment.
Deborah: Yes, yes it was it was a moment that really totally changed my life in so many different ways. I was out with my horses and one of the horses that was not mine decided that for some reason she would go crazy. She ran to me at full speed and knocked me to the ground and stomped on me. And the interesting thing was when she did it was something in me just knew that the Lord was going to do some great thing out of this. And I got this peace I felt like I was laying in the hand of the Lord, just laying in His hand. I knew I was hurt, I knew I was hurt badly but I also knew that the Lord was just totally surrounding me and keeping me in His hand.
Sid: But weren’t you feeling pain?
Deborah: Oh yes, (laughing) yes I was…
Sid: But you also at the same time you were feeling the presence of God.
Deborah: Right and so then the pain actually, as the presence of the Lord took over, the pain actually got less and less, which it shouldn’t have based on the injuries that I had. But the pain actually got less and less, it was still painful, but the peace of God was so overwhelming that the pain was secondary, I don’t know how else to describe.
Sid: Well, you daughter was there what did you say to her?
Deborah: She came over to me and I said “I’m really hurt and I need an ambulance.” So she went running out of the pasture and to get a phone and to get an ambulance. And by the time she got back I was really quite still, I felt this stillness in the Lord, and so I just laid still on the ground. And I kept singing praise and worship songs that was in my head the Lord kept just bringing them back to me, just praising Him, just thanking Him, worshiping Him. My eyes were totally on Him and I know that was a gift because it was nothing I could do myself.
Sid: It had to be when the horse’s trampled and you and you’ve got broken bones and who knows what, and you’re singing. That reminds me of Paul and Silas in prison and they had just been beaten and they were worshiping God at midnight and everyone was watching them.
Deborah: It was an incredible feeling and even now I can kind of go back and just touch that feeling of being right there in the hand of the Lord and it’s an incredible thing. So then I, they took me to the hospital, they didn’t really think I was hurt that badly because I was so peaceful, blood pressure was great, everything seemed fine but…
Sid: How could you not have been stressed out?
Deborah: (laughing) You know I was laughing and making jokes and singing to the Lord, saying okay Lord I don’t know, it was only the grace of God. It is something that you can’t really explain the grace of God. It’s that grace that is that aspect of the Lord that lifts us into a higher plain.
Sid: So of course the ambulance people thought you were fine because you were singing and at such peace, you get to the emergency room. What happened there?
Deborah: Well, they actually did again pretty much left me alone they did a few tests, left me alone, I was in the emergency room for about six hours. Based on one of the tests they decided to do a CAT scan and they did the CAT scan; they were going to release me. They said, “Were going to send you home, everything is fine, they waited for the results of the CAT scan and it came back that all of my internal organs on my left side were crushed and all of my ribs on that side were broken and I had a fractured elbow, and they didn’t know any of that.
Sid: They were going to release you, oy vei! That’s another Hebrew expression, but go ahead.
Deborah: (laughing) So they said that they would have to transport me to another hospital because they didn’t do trauma of that magnitude. Then doctors determined that it would not be wise to transport me, that I might not make it to the transport to the new hospital; so they put me in intensive care in that hospital.
Sid: So you were literally in their opinion on the verge of death.
Deborah: Yes, yes that’s what was told to me that it was a very life threatening thing and I needed immediate attention because I had lost so much internal blood. I was bleeding internally to such an extent from all kinds of organs that it was really critical at that moment. I went to intensive care and I remember getting kind of settled in intensive care and my daughter leaving and it was in the night. Because by the time I got to my room it was probably close to midnight. Sometime during that time and early morning hours when I was taken to surgery I became aware, just aware of the doctors and nurses in my room a lot of them, it just seemed like there were a lot of them, but I wasn’t looking up at them as if I were looking from the bed I just became aware that they were there almost like I was looking from outside of myself. And they were saying things to each other, “I need more blood, the blood is too cold” it had just came up from the blood bank and “I don’t care put it in her anyway, get me extra blankets,” it was a rushing around of all kinds of things. And all of a sudden it kind of hit me I think I might be close to dying, I think I might be going to die. I looked and I saw the Lord, I saw God the Father and we were in the kind of narrow place together. I looked at him and I said, “I’m going to die now.” And He didn’t answer me, and then I said, “Well,” because I thought it would be good to bargain with God I said, “Well Lord, I really would like to stay longer because my daughters only 17, and I think that there’s more that I need to teach her and I don’t know anyone else who could do it. I don’t know anyone else she could live with until she was old enough to live by herself.” And the Lord patiently listened and when I was finished, He said this to me He said, “She was mine before she was yours and I gave her to you do you think I’m not capable of taking care of her after your gone?” Well, when God tells you that it’s you really don’t have anything to say back. He’s totally right, I’m not the one that took care of my daughter all of these years, He is so I said, “Oh, okay I’m ready to go then, I’ll go with You.” The next thing I knew I was being wheeled into surgery early in the morning that morning and I wasn’t dead, I didn’t die.
Sid: But medically speaking what did the doctors say, did they say you died?
Deborah: Medically speaking there was yes, I was a code blue, there was a period of time, and I don’t know exactly how long, that I was not breathing, my heart was not pumping. I was clinically dead.
Sid: This is quite an experience that you get trampled almost dead and then you eventually die, you see God, you experience peace even though your bones are all crushed and your vital organs on one side are all crushed, you’re still experiencing the peace of God. What affect did this have on you? I mean how did you even process this thing?
Deborah: Well, the whole time that I was in intensive care which was about a month after that, I really felt that similar peace of the Lord just washing over me, it was consistent and constant. I would just read the scriptures all the time. And anyone that walked into my room they would say what can I do for you, I would say, “Just read the scriptures.” That was the bread, that was what I was eating and drinking, was these scriptures. A nurse came in and she said, “I noticed that people are always reading the scriptures to you, do you want me to do that now?” And I said, “Yes,” she said “Where?” I said just open them and start reading whatever you read is food for me, and that just really sustained me during that time. Yes I felt pain, yes there was recovery, all kinds of things of course happened afterward, I got acute pancreatitis; I actually got gangrene from and open fracture that I had on my arm.
Sid: Someone really didn’t want you to prosper after having that encounter with God. You eventually get home, you healed of most the things that are going on, and then all of sudden because everything else was going on they didn’t even realize that your cornea had been what would you say ruptured?
Deborah: Yes, they were both damaged in the accident from the force of horse, she was a 1,200 pound horse running at full speed when she hit me and I’m only a 130 pounds so you can probably if you’re a physicist you can do the math and the force was so great that when I hit the ground they would assume it ruptured both of my corneas.
Sid: What was wrong with your vision, could you see anything?
Deborah: I could see multiple images as they began to heal, as my eyes began to heal they healed scar tissue all over the corneas and so I couldn’t see one image it was almost like I was seeing out of a kaleidoscope.
Sid: Hold that thought we’ll pick up here on tomorrow’s broadcast; you are going to love what God did for her, gave her a new type of sight, supernatural vision. But for those of you that feel there’s something more, there must be something more and they’re many of you that are listening. I want you to consider starting a house congregation or if your part of an established church consider shifting to the way the first church was. We have our One New Man Kit. I really believe someone could take this one new man kit and be parachuted anywhere in the world and start house congregations. Listen there’s going to be such an explosion of God’s Spirit, I believe this is the set time to form the foundations for the greatest move of God’s Spirit in history, and I want you to consider starting a One New Man House Celebration. Because I believe that God wants you to stop being a spectator.
Sid: My guest Michelle Perry is red hot for the Messiah, Michelle Perry from Sudan; she’s been called by God to go to Sudan but that’s kind of an overwhelming thing for anyone. You have a woman alone and oh she would refuse to say she was alone, she said she travels with four Father, Son and Holy Spirit and herself. But literally no money, just a call of God to go to Sudan; paint me a picture for someone like myself that’s never been to the Sudan tell me what I might see if I went to the Sudan.
Michelle: Well, you would see lot and lots of children most of which are dressed in rags.
Sid: Now, why are there so many children dressed in rags?
Michelle: Well, because clothing is expensive there, and everything is expensive there. If you have got something covering your body you’re okay.
Sid: Are there many orphans in Sudan?
Michelle: The last statistics that I heard was in the entire nation of Sudan both south and north there were around 3 million orphans.
Sid: Three million, how do these orphans survive?
Michelle: Various ways, in the south they have a fairly strong extended family structure where they’ll go live with an auntie or uncle. If sometimes that’s not a possibility and then they’ll wind up on the streets in many cases.
Sid: But how do they survive on the streets?
Michelle: They’ll beg, they’ll steal, the girls will get involved in prostitution, drugs, I mean just about how any street child survives.
Sid: But there’s such an ordinate number, what else might I see in Sudan?
Michelle: Well, you’re going to see lots of soldiers toting AK-47’s, and lots of people who are drunk, not in the Holy Spirit not yet at least. Lots of suffering, there’s a real weight and oppression over the nation of just a heaviness, and there’s a lot of fear that goes on because they’ve just come out of war. I mean it’s only been a few years since the peace is signed and the things are tumultuous at that, we don’t know if the peace is even going to last. You’re going to see mud huts, you’re going to see no paved roads, you’ll see lack of sanitation. You know our hospital doesn’t even have a doctor very often at it, at least, we went several months without one. (Laughing) There’s no running water and very sporadic electricity, only a few compounds that actually have electricity. And so our building where we stay in we’re renting, we’re very blessed, it actually got walls and it’s brick and it’s also crumbling down around the ears, and it’s been bombed out it looks like. I don’t know if it was or not but it looks like it was a couple of holes in all of the doors and windows, so it’s quite an adventure.
Sid: So you have seventy-seven children.
Michelle: I do.
Sid: And you have the land, and you’re about ready to build the community center. But let’s take you back a little bit when you received that sovereign call from God you were on your way to India and God said not India, Africa, Sudan, one of the worst places on the planet. You went to South Africa and you prayed, for how long?
Michelle: For three weeks. Actually I went to Mozambique first and got to know Iris ministries and went through their Ministry Mission Training School there for two and one half months.
Sid: What is the most memorable experience about Mozambique and the Bakers?
Michelle: Gosh, there’s so many of them. Honestly I believe it would be the children, it would be being able to be with the children and look in their eyes and see these kids that absolutely know that they’re loved. And pour love out and they will chase you down to pray for you, I mean it’s just great.
Sid: So you had an encounter though with the Lord when you were praying in South Africa, tell me about that.
Michelle: I did, I went from Mozambique to South Africa. The one place that I was able to stay was in the center of Johannesburg which isn’t known for being the safest place in the world. I was on Commissioner Street which was in like the Harlem of Showberg.
Sid: And you were traveling with a party of four Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
Michelle: Right, exactly and I was there and this building didn’t have heat and it was a ministry center and they let me stay in an upper room, there kind of fitting. (Laughing) I was praying for three weeks because that’s what Jesus said to do and on eve of the twenty first day Jesus came into the room and I saw Him and He had the lightning of heaven coming out of His being and it was…
Sid: What, I’ve read about this, but what does that look like?
Michelle: It looks like blue white lightning and it was like electricity and it was so intense I just hit the deck, and laid on my face on the floor because what else are you going to do? And I’d been praying about where in south Sudan I should go. I had looked on the map so I had some city names in mind and during this whole encounter it was about four hours long and the first thing He said was, call a generation to converge and My heart to come to My heart. And so when I thrust them out into the harvest they’ll carry My heart beat.
Sid: So you’re not after just getting them saved, you’re after making them disciples.
Michelle: Absolutely! Absolutely! We’re after a movement, we’re after revival first sweeping from the south all the way into the Islamic world. We’re not after just you know building a village, we’re after a movement of love and of God’s heartbeat.
Sid: What else did He tell you?
Michelle: well he put an Arab baby in one arm and a black African baby in the other, and there’s one of two nations in Africa and Sudan one of them that has both ethnicities there present. And I knew that He had given me the nation of Sudan, I just knew it and I’m not the only one that He’s given it to but I’m one of them and so we’re just I’m just so excited and He told me to go the Yei, and He said it’s where you will enter into my promise Yei and it’s where the young will enter into my promise of revival. And so that’s where I went, I said, “Okay God how do I get there?” And one step, one revelation, one connection at a time before I knew it I was on a road with five people I really didn’t know. On a road that was washed out across rebel territory, and in a car I had rented with a driver for a couple of days to drop me off at this new city. And I mean the adventure really began,
Sid: Well, it’s an adventure but between you and me aren’t there times when you say “Yikes, what am I doing here, I must be crazy?”
Michelle: Well, I’ve had lots of people tell me, “You crazy white woman what do you think you’re doing?” No plan, no strategy, you don’t have any money, you didn’t have a team, you didn’t know where you were going, you don’t have a feasibility study.
Michelle: And I told them well, Jesus all ready did the feasibility study and He thinks that it’s quite feasible, and without Him it would be an impossibility study. And you know there are times that I look around especially when they shoot their AK-47’s off at night outside my window, you know I think, “Wow God what have we got me into? (Laughing) Then I look at my little ones eyes and I look into their faces and I see the affect of transformational love first hand. How could I not be there, how could I not want to run into the place where God is dreaming about, He is dreaming about His Sudanese bride. And I see that reflect in His eyes so how could I not run there? How could I not go?
Sid: I’ve seen video footage of Heidi Baker, and whenever I see her in Mozambique she’s got children and she’s got her arms around them, is that you?
Michelle: Pretty much, I mean it’ll be really nice when my other leg arrives because then I’ll have two legs to have kids sit on. Right now they have to fight over the one. But I’m surrounded with them and even my friends in Sudan they laugh at me because I’ll stop and say hi to everybody and I’ll have an entourage of kids that follow me even when I’m just going down to do internet. (Laughing)
Sid: Have you had points where you didn’t have any money?
Michelle: Just about, I don’t think we’ve had points where there’s zero dollars but there was definitely not enough to get our next meal.
Sid: Tell me one time when you didn’t have enough for your next meal and what happened.
Michelle: Well, we had a gal that was staying with us for a few months when we first started out, and our money at the base had run out so I was traveling to Uganda to get a withdrawal from our account because there’s no banks where I live. And so you have to go to another country to get your money. So I left them with what we had hoped would be enough to last just until I got back, but we had hit some road problems and I got delayed and so I was really really concerned I had no way to communicate with them and just praying going “God, please provide and take care of them” and when I got back they had a story of this truck pulled up to the compound unsolicited and first they were like no we don’t want it because we don’t have money to pay for it. And they’re like “No, no your names are on this list and we don’t even know how we got on the list, and they came out with these big basins of rice and beans which are staples and so they got food. And our kids had been praying for three weeks for soccer balls, and we didn’t have funds for it at the time. And so we said, “Let’s ask Jesus” and of course we hadn’t told anybody about this and it’s after they get the food out and every ones like oh, oh, oh, everyone’s all excited and everything. And they pull out this huge gunny sack filled soccer balls; and we heard you had kids here and you might like these. Well you kind of heard our kids shout all the way to Cartoom I think, and then they pulled out another bag filled with jerseys, soccer jerseys so our kids not only got food they got soccer balls and jerseys, and we still to this day do not know how we got on this organizations list.
Sid: What’s it like when something like that happens?
Michelle: It makes this Momma’s heart rest at ease knowing God’s got it, God’s got it He’s in control; it’s not up to me it’s up to Him and it’s just overjoyed, I mean overjoyed, overwhelmed with joy and gratefulness that Jesus, He’s not just concerned about barely enough or just enough. He’s concerned with the details and with the things that are important to our kids.
Sid: How do you feel when you see all the waste in America?
Sid: And you see what your kids in your country needs?
Michelle: You know I use to be really angry by it, but I realize when I look and most people I know don’t have a clue here, they don’t have eyes to see, they’ve never been exposed, they don’t know any different, so God really corrected me a couple of years ago and said, “They’re just as orphaned as the little kids that you pick up on the street corner.” You need to see that it’s not just about whether you’re a physical orphan, it’s about whether you’re a spiritual orphan, you’re an emotional orphan, and we have lots of orphans in this land, that they don’t understand they belong. And yes we’ve been blessed with provisions and we are wasteful with it, but even in our abundance many people here are poorer than my children will ever be.
Sid: My guest is red hot for the Messiah, and I have to say Michelle Perry that is an understatement. To the best of your ability you live for Him 24-7. I asked your mom I said, “Were you a loving person most of your life?” And she said, “Yes!” Where do you suppose that, I know it came from God, but most people are bitter that are born without, missing one hip, missing one kidney, having a rod in their spine and in pain constantly how do you get all this joy with you have enough to feel. I give you permission to feel sorry for yourself.
Michelle: (Laughing) Well you know I never had another leg so it’s not like I lost one, you know mine just hasn’t arrived yet, it’s on its way.
Sid: You have to tell me again about the parts room, you see Jesus took her to heaven and she saw, and I’ve had a lot of guests that have told me about…I haven’t been to heaven yet I will one day, but I haven’t been to heaven yet but many people have told me about this parts room with the body parts. Tell me what does it look like?
Michelle: It looks kind of like a warehouse and it just has got, it’s got shelves with different like eyeballs on it, and different hearts beating, and lungs breathing, and it’s really kind of Sci-fi-ish it’s a little bit freaky.
Sid: We’ve seen more people get their body parts here on earth that’s there for that purpose.
Michelle: I think that were walking into a day where we’re going to; I mean the past revivals have seen a lot of creative miracles and I believe we’re walking into another wave of God’s Spirit that we’re going to begin to seen a lot of creative miracles and I believe we’re walking into another wave of God’s Spirit that we’re going to see that become the norm.
Sid: It’s my belief that Heaven’s drawing closer to earth and what we read in the Bible will be the norm and our experience especially hear in North America will be the exception.
Michelle: Hmm absolutely.
Sid: Now did Jesus actually tell you you would be getting new body parts.
Michelle: All I knew is that He sent it to shipping, which must mean it’s on it’s way.
Sid: How long ago was that?
Michelle: That was in 2003.
Sid: So it’s kind of …maybe you should send him the postage… nah I’m just teasing. (Laughing)
Michelle: I had a friend that was praying one day and she also got taken up into this room, and she did not know my experience and she was asking about different things and she said “Hey do you have any parts for Michelle Perry, just asked. And the angel that she talked to said, “Nope sorry they have already been sent to shipping so she asked where it was going and his reply was Africa.
Sid: Now on yesterday’s broadcast we were talking about that you were in Toronto, you thought he Toronto Airport was an airport, and you found out it was a church. You had quite an encounter with Jesus there. He showed you His heart for the orphans and the hurting people around the world, but why were you crying so much there?
Michelle: I think because I was encountering more of His heart and He was enlarging my heart, and sometimes visitation isn’t always a warm fuzzy experience, sometimes it’s heart rending, and it hurts because He enlarging you to be able to carry more of Him, and that’s not always comfortable. And I was just overwhelmed with His presence and I don’t even know I just was. (Laughing) I really don’t.
Sid: So you’re on the plane trip back, you’re basking in the glory of God in the presence of God and there’s no one seated next to you and all of a sudden someone takes the seat, tell me about that someone and what this person said to you.
Michelle: Well, I saw Jesus walk on to the plane and He sat down next…
Sid: How was He dressed, was He dressed in a business suit or…
Michelle: No, jeans and a t-shirt. Yeah.
Sid: So He was in revival mode.
Michelle: He was in revival mode yeah. (Laughing) I saw Him and I just knew that it was Him. I don’t think that anybody else saw Him but I saw Him, and He was there and in the middle of the plane. When we got up to cruising altitude, it was like I saw the ceiling of the plane disappear which I was kind of looking around to see if anybody else was freaking out because it was a little freaky to be in a plane and have the ceiling disappear, a tad bit odd. Well nobody else seemed to be bothered so I figured it was just me and when I looked up I was immediately with Jesus in heaven and then he was dressed more like the robe and the things you normally see. (Laughing)
Sid: But let me get this, initially though He came on and He just sat next to you?
Michelle: Hmm Hmm.
Sid: Did He say anything?
Michelle: No, he just smiled.
Sid: Did you know that it was Him?
Michelle: Oh yeah.
Sid: Even though He was in revival gear, but okay.
Michelle: It’s His eyes; you can recognize His eyes anywhere.
Sid: Well, tell me about His eyes, I haven’t seen His eyes.
Michelle: Well, they’re filled with love you could just drown in them, and you know He’s not the fair haired blond haired little pansy small guy that we see in most of the paintings He looks very Middle Eastern, He looks Jewish, image that. And I mean He had dark hair and He had dark eyes and when you look into His eyes it’s like the Iris’s around His pupil are like mosaics dark from a distance, but when you get up close they are like mosaics of every color an eye could have all in one and they’re the most beautiful, beautiful thing that you will ever see. And so I mean you can just recognize Him.
Sid: Okay, so the top of the plane has disappeared.
Michelle: I just saw it disappear over where I was sitting and it was like this vacuum tunnel suction thing right up into the throne room.
Sid: Was there anything scary about it?
Michelle: No not really, not really once I figured out that the top of the plane was still there in the natural.
Sid: Okay so you find yourself in heaven with Jesus.
Michelle: Yeah and we started to dance because I love to dance and I always have two legs in heaven so I never have crutches in heaven. So I like to go there quite frequently.
Sid: Do you have any pain?
Michelle: No, none.
Sid: I wouldn’t think so,
Michelle: (Laughing) Not a bit and so it’s a good vacation.
Sid: So do you go there often?
Michelle: As often as I can. (Laughing)
Sid: Can you during prayer will yourself to go to heaven or are you taken or?
Michelle: I believe you can position yourself to be able to experience more of God’s presence and you can positionally put yourself there by faith, but you can’t make anything happen. I mean it’s Holy Spirit that shows you things.
Sid: Okay, you have your two legs.
Michelle: I have my two legs and Jesus and I were dancing, and all of a sudden the scene changed and we were dancing on the trash heaps of the world, on the leper colonies, and the refugee camps, and the red light districts, and wherever people were broken and forgotten and hurting. And we were dancing, and wherever we danced it was like everything was in monochrome like grey scale. As we danced the river of life began to flow and color happened and barren wilderness began to burst forth into life and beauty. And Jesus looked into my eyes and He said, “Beloved I know that you’d love to stay here, but and I’d love to have you here with Me but I can’t have a wedding without a bride and there’s whole pieces of My bride that are missing in nations. And will you go with Me to be My face to them, will you go with Me to find my lost bride? He’s longing for His bride, He’s longing for His bride in the nations.
Sid: Did He tell you what people groups are lost in His bride?
Michelle: No, not specifically not specifically by name, but they’re everywhere they are pieces of His lost bride right here in America that we don’t have eyes to see.
Sid: Give me examples of part of His lost bride.
Michelle: I believe the new age movement, the people that so often times we in church are afraid of and run from or we don’t want to look.
Sid: How about the person with tattoos up and down their arms in so many ear rings there isn’t room to put any more.
Michelle: Absolutely, absolutely (Laughing), you got it. The homeless man on the street corner, the Vietnam vet that…
Sid: Out of curiosity there’s a homeless man that walks by my office I see him maybe a couple times a month, and he’s deranged, I mean that’s why, I mean there’s different reasons people are homeless that’s why he’s homeless. I bought him a meal once, I gave him a couple of dollars, but I could see there wasn’t much I could do for him. What would you do for him?
Michelle: Well, I think I would look to see what Jesus was doing in the situation that I encountered him, but I would stop and see him, I’d stop and talk to him and I would ask Jesus how could I be the face of your love in the moment that I’m in, because I think oftentimes people ask me this all the time, don’t you get overwhelmed by the need and by the overwhelming I mean…
Sid: Sure, just the nation you’re in Sudan, I mean it’s unlimited need!
Michelle: Absolutely, but we have a God with limitless love and my love is limited. His isn’t and He hasn’t called me to love the whole nation at one time. He’s called me to love the nation one person at a time.
Sid: Now I’ve always thought when I’ve read the gospels that the key if you will and I’m one of these logical people, one of my greatest advantages and one of my greatest disadvantages, the key if you will for the release for the miraculous is compassion. How can someone get this compassion more than they have? How can I have the compassion you have, I already told you before we went on the air I want you to pray that I have that compassion.
Michelle: All I really know is I spent the last ten years asking for it and saying “God I want to love with Your love and I want to see with Your eyes.” And every time I step into a situation that stretches my compassion threshold where I want to run from it and I don’t want to see I pray that prayer again, I say “God I need more love, my love is too small I need more of Your love.
Sid: Are there times that you want to run because things are so overwhelming?
Michelle: Of course!
Sid: Welcome to the human race.
Michelle: Well, yeah! (Laughing)
Sid: I mean it’s got to be, I know you’re called but that’s got to be a hard call to Sudan.
Michelle: On one hand it is, but on the other hand there’s so much joy in it. You know Jesus endured the cross for the joy set before Him. So I believe that when God give us a call even when it leads to a hard road, or it appears to be there’s so much joy in seeing God show up and life transformed that it’s for the joy set before us, and I’m absolutely not a miserable missionary. I’m a happy missionary.
Sid: What’s it like dancing with Jesus?
Michelle: Freedom, it’s like flying, it’s like flying, it’s like its total and complete freedom, it really is and dancing with Him I don’t think a plan is going to win the world and see Him come back but I do believe a dance will. As we dance with Him through the harvest fields of His dreams.
Sid: My guest I guess red hot is an understatement for you Michelle, her name is Michelle Perry; she’s the head of Iris Ministries Sudan. And she does not have an orphanage, they were orphans at one time but she has 77 members of her family. She picks some up off the street, others in various ways and she’s in process of building a village for them to live in. She was born with something that would cause most people to be pretty bitter. She was born with one kidney missing, one leg missing, and curvature of the spine where she’s got what you say, a couple of rods, steel rods inside. But you told me, but you’re the most joyful person, I agree with Joyce my guest coordinator. You are the most joyful person I have ever met!
Sid: And I may have difficulty doing this interview if you keep that up. (laughing) But Sudan is your home.
Michelle: It is, it is it’s ahah I prayed for the last decade that God would give me the worst place that He could trust me with. And so when I was moving in Sudan…
Sid: Is that one of the worst places on the face of this earth?
Michelle: Well, actually when I moved there in 2006 it was according to one of the think tank associate of the UN it was the number one most failed state on the planet, so I said, “Yeah God I got a promotion.” (laughing)
Sid: (laughing) Aids pretty ramped there?
Michelle: Um because the borders have been closed up until recently due to the war not as much as in some parts of Africa but it’s skyrocketing now.
Sid: What’s your ultimate, the ultimate that God has for you in Sudan?
Michelle: I believe it’s to see a movement of love that literally will sweep from southern Sudan into the north and into the Arabic speaking Islamic world to carry the glory of God and to carry the love of Jesus into the darkness.
Sid: Now, I understand your kids fight to see who can go into the hospital to pray for the sick, tell me about that.
Michelle: Well, we divide them up into teams and regularly we like to take them into to pray for the sick in the sick in the hospitals because that’s what Jesus did and he prayed for the sick and they got healed. And so we take them into the hospitals and we’ve had a couple instances where more wanted to come than we had space for. (laughing) So we’ve had to say no you need to wait and be patient and I’m sorry you really can’t go today you just kind of pushed him down and so you can’t go and get your heart right with Jesus and you can go tomorrow. (laughing)
Sid: Now Michelle, you had a heart’s desire when revival was going real strong at the Toronto Airport Church you wanted to go there; why did you want to go there so bad?
Michelle: (laughing) In 2000 I read a little blurb in a little article about the Baker’s in Mozambique and I didn’t know who they were, I thought Heidi got her visitation on the floor of the Toronto Airport, I didn’t know that it was a church. So I started praying for…
Sid: So you wanted to go to the airport?
Michelle: I started praying for visitations in airports (laughing). I figure that God’s not a respecter of airports so he could meet me in Heathrow. I found out about it about a year and a half later that it was a church, and it was a move of God’s Spirit that was very precious that had been going on there and I wanted very desperately to go. But it was a timing issue and as in most things in my life I say “God if You want me to do that and it’s a desire in my heart then I put it in your hands and You make it happen at the right time.”
Sid: So the day arrived you got there, what happened?
Michelle: I found out that I got there and it was amazing because when I found out that God answered my prayer because I pray God I want everything they have, and when I got there it was like coming home, it as like normal to me because just being in God’s presence is what I’ve done for five years since I read the article and I had no clue. I didn’t know and so I got there and it was amazing to be in a corporate setting that understood about pressing in and pursuing the presence of God, and just waiting on Him and waiting.
Sid: The presence of God is very important to you.
Michelle: Oh, He’s everything, He’s everything…
Sid: So you were corporately pressing into the presence of God and what happened to you?
Michelle: Well, I just kind of got undone, I mean I was just praying and God took me up and showed me this huge table in heaven and seated around it were thousands of children, and poorest of the poor, and the blind, and the prostitutes, and the beggars, and the gang bangers, and the worst of the worst, the cast off of society. And they were all very hungry and they were all looking at me. And I thought okay, help God, and Jesus walked in and he had this huge platter of food and he put it…, and I am thinking “Whew He’s here and He’ll feed everybody.” Well, no he put the food right down in front of me and He said, “Beloved eat”, and I said, “No I can’t eat, do you see all these hungry people let’s give them the food and then you can feed me and that I’ll be okay.” And He said, “You don’t understand eat and so he was pretty stern and so I did I took a piece of bread and I ate and the minute that I ate the minute that I took a bit of this bread everybody around the table had it.” And He really used that to begin speaking to me that we can’t give away what we don’t have and we can’t impart what’s not a part of us. And so it’s so important to eat of Him and drink of Him. Now I went from eating and drinking for me to eating and drinking for a nation so it’s a lot of eating and drinking going on.
Sid: I was told that you had your own personal box of Kleenex you were crying so much.
Michelle: Yeah that happens to me sometimes when I get in God’s presence. You know, there was a Soaking in the Glory Conference, and I just had to laugh thinking this is a whole different definition of soaking, soaking through a box of Kleenex, (laughing) but God I don’t even know fully what God did except I do know He enlarged my heart, and I got a chance to experience His presence and He started to change things on the inside of me that were pivotal for the journey to come.
Sid: So you decided at that point that you were going to be involved with children and with people that had problems, and from what I understand you thought that was going to be India.
Michelle: Well, I had lived in India previously to that, I had been in India two years already and then God moved me back to the United States basically kicking and screaming, I’d worked with at risked kids for years at that point, but I was kind of tired of it and thought maybe I would get to graduate to adults. (laughing) And no I didn’t get to; in fact I’m working with more children now than I ever had and I wouldn’t trade it for the world because they’re my greatest teachers.
Sid: How did you know that it wasn’t India but Sudan?
Michelle: (laughing) Well God said, “Back overseas and so I figured I love India, I got the clothes, I know the language where I was living and it just made sense, so I was making preparations to move. In the middle of me buying a plane ticket online it’s really good to listen to God all the time He kind of interrupted me and said, “I’m so glad you love India, so do I, but can I send you to Sudan instead?
Sid: That simple?
Michelle: And I said, “God, Sudan’s in Africa that’s the wrong continent. He said, “Yes, I know where Sudan is, (laughing) and I thought well that’s very happy He knows His geography because I live there now. But I gave Him my life when I was seven years old so where I live is not respective of where He wants me to live.
Sid: Out of curiosity you went to Sudan after being told to go there did you go with someone or by yourself?
Michelle: No, well I’m really on a team of four Father, Son and Holy Spirit and me.
Michelle: But I was the only I mean most people would say I went alone and I rented a car, hired a car.
Sid: But you use a crutch, your there by yourself, what about the finances?
Michelle: That’s a really good question, we trust God. That’s been one of my biggest areas of having opportunity and grow in faith in the last sixteen/eighteen months since we started because we live in the second most expensive place in the world.
Sid: I want to take you back to Toronto again this experience sounds wonderful, but tell me what were you praying when you were on the floor there, what were you asking God for?
Michelle: Well, more of Him.
Sid: You know that reminds me of a song by Grace Williams and the CD that we’re offering this week, “Fire Fall.” Let’s hear “Consume Me”, and I’m believing that as you listen to it the love of God will begin to consume you.
Grace William Excerpt “Consume me”
Sid: I have a guest in the studio, her name is Michelle Perry she is from Sudan, and this is a nation we’ve been hearing a lot in the news about. Michelle why is Sudan considered such a rough hot spot in the world today? Just give me a brief description of what Sudan is like.
Michelle: Well they’ve been in civil war Africa’s the longest running civil war for about twenty years; and even though the peace agreement was signed in 2005 there’s still not a whole lot of peace. There’s armed groups that are roaming in the south that are causing disturbances, and there’s the whole population infrastructure has been decimated. So there is a lack of schooling; there’s a lack of medical care; there’s no really paved roads and it’s a pretty desolate place.
Sid: So give me a break you’re an American, what are you doing there?
Michelle: Following the heart of Jesus. (laughing)
Sid: I mean you work with orphans, you have an orphanage, except you don’t call them orphans ounce they’re with you they’re family; so you have a family center of 77 formerly orphans. How many orphans are you going to have there?
Michelle: As many as God provides a way for me take, for us to take in.
Sid: Now, are you connected with Heidi Baker and that’s the type of answer that she would give me about Mozambique; in fact you even laugh a lot like her. Did anyone ever tell you that?
Michelle: I get that a lot. (laughing)
Sid: My Guest Coordinator said, “That in all of the people that they have interviewed and they interview a lot of people you are the most loving person that she ever spoke with, the most joyful person that she ever spoke with.” But let’s take you back at your beginning; you were born with one kidney missing; one leg missing; the other kidney not really working; and I mean that’s some start. How does someone go from starting out life that way to ending up like you are today running around your home the Sudan; you have a crutch you’re still missing one leg; you’re still missing one kidney; you have a few other challenges going on with your back. Explain what happened with your back.
Michelle: Severe Scoliosis and so I had a number of surgeries on my back where they put two Herrington rods in my spine is complete fused except for two vertebrae.
Sid: And at age seven you had a visitation, now were your family believers in Jesus as you grew up at age seven.
Michelle: Well, my Mom loved God, but she didn’t really understand that it was necessary to have a personal walk with Jesus; it was good to go to church and she talked to Him.
Sid: They were church goers but they weren’t really born again Christians.
Michelle: Yes, exactly.
Sid: So what happened to you at seven?
Michelle: (laughing) Well growing up my family decided it would be really good if I knew about God because of my situation so they would read me these cute little bed time Bible story books and some of them were about this guy named Jesus. When I was seven I overheard my mom and my grandma who also lived with us at the time and they were talking about what would happen if the doctors made a mistake, and how I could be paralyzed from my neck down; the surgery was on my spine or I could die and wasn’t happy options at any age and I was really scared by that, but I didn’t want to let them know that I accidently overheard. Ha-ha-ha so I didn’t tell them I was scared and when I went to bed that night and it was like this elephant of fear was sitting on my chest, I mean it was so heavy. In the midst of that, in the midst of that fear these stories that I had been read about this guy named Jesus, I mean really Holy Spirit’s so gracious came just came, and I just cried out. I mean I didn’t have a theology, I didn’t know the Romans’ Road, I didn’t know the Four Spiritual Laws I didn’t know anything that you’re suppose to know. All I knew was if this man Jesus was really real I needed to know who He was and I needed him; and so I cried out to Jesus! If you’re really real I want to know you and He’s really real. (laughing) He showed up instantaneously.
Sid: I mean you actually saw Him or you just heard Him?
Michelle: No, I saw Him just like I see you.
Sid: And did He speak to you?
Michelle: He sure did.
Sid: What did He say?
Michelle: He came over and He sat on the edge of my bed and I don’t remember everything I remember He talked to me like I was seven, like you’d talk to a seven year old that was scared, but the minute His presence came into the room all fear left, just dissipated, disappeared, wasn’t there. And what I remember is Him looking into my eyes and telling me if I followed him I’d see whole groups of people in other countries and places come to know who He was. And I thought that was the greatest promises ever I was like “When do we leave? (laughing)
Sid: I think it’s phenomenal that He choice you especially in a non-born again home, just a religious home. Now let’s just whet the appetite of the some of the people that are listening right now. When you’re at home in Sudan give me some specific miracles that you’ve actually seen happen there.
Michelle: Well, we’ve been translated across enemy lines, there were some road blocks and God literally moved park cars out of the way so we could drive through in a drive that should have taken us minimum of six and ½ hours took us two. And we were very confused when we got back to the city and went “What is everyone still doing up and why are the kids still up; and then we looked at our clocks and went “Oh my gosh we’re been translated!” And we’ve seen lollypops’ multiply, we’ve seen the blind see, the deaf hear.
Sid: You told me just the other night an atrophied arm grew out; tell me about that.
Michelle: Just last night I was doing a meeting in the Mid-West and I just felt like there was this God really wanted to pour out healing in the house and so we had made time for that at the end and basically had anybody that needed healing standup and just prayed for an open heaven, prayed for God’s presence to come. And this man who had polio in his arm and had been atrophied, and he had barely any range of motion in it; we had people around we had people that were standing prayed for them and the people around him started to pray. And then they came and got me because as we were praying and waiting on the Load and they were lying on of hands his arm started to grow and it started to grow muscle on and sinew on it and where it wasn’t there before. And probably by the time I left he’d gotten back about 65 to 70% of his range of motion.
Sid: I have to ask you this question, you’re as human as I am as anyone else is the only difference is that you’re willing to pay the price in addition to living in Sudan; where did you work in a leper colony?
Michelle: I was in India off and on for two years, I was based there and I fell in love with the leper colonies, I love them, I’d go back in a heartbeat. And the teams that I were with…
Sid: Isn’t leprosy contagious?
Michelle: Well not nearly as contagious as Holy Spirit that lives inside of me. (laughing)
Sid: I got you. So the question I have for you, I know you just recently got back from the crusade by Todd Bentley and they’re having all sorts of miracles. You went there believing you would have a miracle I would assume and you didn’t. Doesn’t that bother you?
Michelle: Well, at times a bit but I also…
Sid: But right now you’re sitting and we’re talking to each other and you’re in pain.
Michelle: I am, I am but I also know God’s God and I’m Michelle, and He’s got a timing and I believe what He has promised me. I’ve got a package coming from heaven and when it arrives…
Sid: How do you know that you have a package coming from heaven?
Michelle: Because Jesus showed it to me.
Sid: Oh, come on you got to tell me.
Michelle: (laughing) Well in 2003 I was just sitting in my study in Colorado at the time and was praying and all of a sudden I was standing with Jesus in this, it looks like this huge warehouse room in heaven that’s a little bit freaky because it’s filled with different kinds of body parts, there’s like eyeballs blinking on the shelf. (laughing)
Sid: Well, medical students would have a field day.
Michelle: They could definitely study anatomy there. Jesus took me to this one section that had vacuumed sealed kind of body parts packages and one had everything I was missing, hip, leg, kidney, spine you know everything that was not functioning properly was there. And He called some angels over and said take it to shipping, so I know it’s coming, it’s in shipping.
Sid: In this life are you going to be able to walk with two legs?
Michelle: I believe that I am Sid.
Sid: Are you going to be able to dance with Jesus?
Michelle: Well, I dance with Him now, but I’m going to be able to do a whole lot more moves when the other leg gets here.
Sid: I am sure. Tell me about your former orphans.
Michelle: Oh, my kids, they’re so glorious and some of my greatest heroes and my greatest teachers, and they’ve come from all different kinds of traumatic situations. Some have lost parents due to the war. Many have lost parents due to illness or the lack of medical care, our babies often come when they’re a few days old because one in eight women die in child birth in south Sudan where I live. And so they come in all different ways, sometimes we find them in the hospitals, sometimes we find them on the street and God just brings them to us.
Sid: Have you actually seen a baby on the street and brought the baby home?
Michelle: No, not a baby but we’ve had some street children that we found.
Sid: Street children, I mean just like some people in America find a stray dog, you find a stray child.
Michelle: Well, it’s a dynamic that’s actually more prevalent in the cities and areas that are north of where we are but it’s Abyei, the town where I live in is growing. We’re having people come in with shipping and trucking and things it’s becoming more common to find kids that are on the street.
Sid: Now you’re in the midst of a building project right now.
Michelle: We are, we have forty acres that God has allowed us to acquire and we’re very grateful for but they’re forty acres of bush with nothing on it.
Sid: Okay, so you need a building.
Michelle: Well actually we’re building a village, we need we’re not building a big building that feels like and orphanage because we don’t have any orphans once they come to live with us. We’re building small houses for ten to twelve children and a mom, so that they have a family dynamic and they grow up being part of a village in a community.
Sid: Mishpochah we’re out of time we’ll pick up right here on tomorrow’s broadcast.
Sid: I’ve got good news to tell you this is God’s moment He is pouring out His Spirit in fact my guest Ryan Wyatt and I were talking before we went on the air. Ryan you had a vision in which Jesus came to you, tell me about that.
Ryan: Jesus came to me and said three words He said, “Know My Holy Spirit,” and then He turned around and walked away. When He did that Sid the Holy Spirit came to me not only in the vision but in the natural as well and overshadowed me like He did Mary. And He spoke to me and He said, “Ask what you will and it will be given to you.” And it opened up much of the revelation that’s in that four CD series of “How to Bring Heaven to Earth in Your Life.” And I’m telling you in this hour God is coming to a remnant within the organizational church that really love Him, that are really after Him. And He’s going to overshadow them with His Holy Spirit and He’s going to use them to bring heaven to earth. You know when He came to Mary in the book of Luke the angel Gabriel came to Mary and said, “You’re going to bring forth the Christ Child, you’re going to bring forth the son of God.” And she said, “How can this be I’ve never been with a man?” And the answer that the angel gave was don’t worry for the Holy Spirit is going to overshadow, come upon you and the power of the Highest is going to overshadow you.” And in the same way, right now the glory of God is beginning to come in manifestation and He’s overshadowing an army of people on the earth and they’re coming to a place of supernatural intimacy, supernatural encounter. And you know in Mary’s situation she had nothing to offer but herself, but when that cloud of God’s glory came over her conception took place. And you know one of the messages in that series is “Birthing Manifestations of Heaven on Earth.” Mary was literally used to birth the glory of God the biggest manifestation of the glory of God on the earth and she was used to birth it. She said, “God let it be, let it be unto me as you say.” And when there’s a generation that begins to step into the glory and live under that glory presence there’s a transaction that takes place, and heaven begins to soak into their life, intimacy with God, encounters of God, the voice of God. And Jesus lived out of that place, He said, “People when I speak to you the words that I speak to You are Spirit, and they are life.” And I’m convinced those, some that are listening that may not be born again and those that are born again the world says they’re not hungry for Jesus, but they are hungry for the living Jesus. This army is going to be so overcome with the glory of God that when they speak they will birth heaven on the earth.
Sid: Ryan it is normal and I’m speaking with Ryan Wyatt; it is normal for you to have visions, for you to have encounters with the Lord, encounters with angels. And even to the point where a lot of people say, “Well, that can’t be God.” But when I read the Bible that was normal, and what most people are encountering is abnormal. What would you say to a person that is Spirit filled, believes in miracles with every fiber of their being, doesn’t see a whole lot, has never really had what they could say an encounter with the Lord came to them, or anything of great intimacy with God; they felt and anointing of God’s presence, they’ve spoken in tongues but nothing like what you’re telling me Ryan. Where does that person start?
Ryan: My prayer is Sid if people like that are listening right now it starts with an absolute raw hunger. My prayer is as you’re listening that you are being overcome with a hunger for God. When you know the disciples came to Jesus and they said to Jesus, “How should we pray?” And Jesus the first words out of his mouth and everybody knows the prayer but He said, “Our Father in heaven hallow it be Thy Name, Thy kingdom come Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.” And so many people have been taught that that’s for after they die, but Sid He turned around to them and said, “The kingdom of heaven is at hand.” And for those of you that are listening the kingdom of heaven is Gods realm, it’s as it is in heaven there’s no depression in heaven, there’s no oppression in heaven, there’s no sickness in heaven. I just want to encourage you to stir up a hunger in you that God has designed for you to live your life on the earth as it is in heaven. There is intimate encounters for you waiting for you every single day, there’s a fresh encounter of the glory of God. Just like in the Old Testament when the manna would show up fresh in the morning the manna the dew would be on the ground; every morning you wake up there is the due of heaven, the manna of heaven, the glory of God that is available for you to step into, and it all starts with hunger. You’ve got to hunger for the living Jesus and press in like never before and He will meet you with supernatural encounters.
Sid: Well, when people listen to you especially when they listen to your four CD teaching set called “How to Bring Heaven to Earth,” the hunger is going to be stirred up. Once the hunger is stirred up what do they do? I’m a pretty practical, logical person and tell me what, alright talk to me, I am very hungry for God, I have been all my life, but I’m hungrier now than I’ve ever been in my life; what’s the next step?
Ryan: Yeah, it’s a loaded question Sid in fact a lot of the teachings that I’ve done talk about how to position yourself before the Lord and you know when they go before the Lord in prayer their mind is going crazy and all over the map. I begin to teach people there’s a way to position yourself before the Lord in quietness and stillness and in soaking, just resting before the Lord, not in a place where you’re giving your petitions all over, but in the place and the presence of the Lord. That’s when the angels begin to come, you know the realm of heaven is around us all the time. I like the tell people this, “You know there’s hundreds of movies playing right where you are, there’s hundreds of radio stations right where you are and if we had the right receiver we could just tap right in and listen to the radio; tap right in and watch movies.” In the same way Jesus said, “The kingdom of heaven is at hand” it’s right here it’s tangible. And so in my life I’ve learned myself and go around the world training people in schools of the supernatural and how to position yourself in the presence of God. And when God comes and He wants to move on you what is the language of the spirit world? How does He communicate when the angels come and there’s so much about pressing into that realm of intimacy with God. It’s learning to be quiet, learning to be still, learning to position yourself for heaven to move in on your life.
Sid: Now is there some cooperation on our part when the angels show up, and perhaps maybe they don’t show up that you see with your eyes but you can maybe something touches you so you know that there’s an angel present, but you don’t see anything and you don’t hear anything, what do you do?
Ryan: Oh absolutely and in fact I call it the seer anointing. You know there’s the prophesying where it bubbles up from within you but then there’s this realm where God will activate your five natural senses and your five spiritual senses and sometimes when angels come to me I don’t always see them I might smell the presence of the Lord coming, I know that it’s an angel. I might see a flash of light in my mind’s eye. You know we need to understand that the visible the physical real that we are participating in right now is actually a lesser reality than the heavenly realm. And so sometimes when we see things in a vision form in our minds eye we discount those and we think those are less than what we experience in the natural realm. But really the physical chair that we’re sitting in, the car that you might be driving in right now it’s a lower reality than the spiritual realm. You know there’s two kinds of Christians, and I like to use the story of Elijah, this is why the supernatural is so important to us as believers. You know the Syrian army was coming against Elijah and this is a huge deal. His servant walks out in the morning he’s surrounded by hundreds and thousands of chariots of horses and everything and you know what? He’s a believer he knows how Elijah moves in the power of God and he heard about it, let’s just say, “He’s a Spirit Filled believer, he speaks in tongues.” But he doesn’t have that supernatural reality in his life and he’s overcome by fear. He says, “There’s no hope, we’re done for the Syrian army is going to take us down.” But Elijah was a different kind of believer, Elijah lived in the supernatural and he walked out and he said, “Oh Gehazi, fear not for there are more that are with us than that are with them.” And he prayed for Gehazi like I believe we’ll pray today and he said “Father, I ask you open up his eyes.” And he was speaking about that seer realm, that realm of sensing and feeling in the realm of the spirit and Gehazi eyes were opened and between them and the Syrian army he saw a vast army of horses of fire, chariots of fire, God’s army. And [Elijah] was the kind of believer that lived in a place of victory because he saw things from God’s supernatural perspective.
Sid: My guest Dr. Jim Richards is going to help you, he’s going to help you manifest every promise in God’s Word, and this is what you want for your life and for your loved ones lives and for the people God’s going to have cross your path. Now Jim on yesterday’s broadcast and all this week you’ve been talking about these trapped emotions and how they literally as James says “A double minded man is unstable in all of his ways.” And they make us double minded they get in the way of the manifestation of the answer of God’s promises. When you dealt with these emotions as God taught you and as you teach on your eight CD series called “Change Your Heart, Change Your World” tell me the changes that occurred in your life.
Jim: You know so many times the changes that occur in my life of course are physical changes where I experience physical healing. And what’s really interesting, many of the physical healings, it merged not because I prayed for healing, but because I dealt with these trapped emotions and sent them away and maybe a few days later or a week later I will suddenly realize I’m not struggling with arthritis in my elbow anymore. Or I’m not struggling with that lower back pain anymore. I’ve actually experienced more serendipitous healings through sending away trapped emotions than I have…and I’ve experienced incredible healings you know getting prayed for and I’m believing that and I’m for that, but I have found that in daily life if all I’ll just deal with these things when they immerge I’ll just get well because suddenly I’m not filled with these things that are creating death. You know we want to be happy, and praise God for physical healing, I am so thankful for physical healings, but the real truth is I talk to people every day that are hurting every day that hurting emotional and they say “I can deal with my physical pain but I can’t deal with my emotional pain.” And I have found that things that use to just set me off, things that would just put me into a tailspin emotionally, maybe frustrations, matter of fact in my life I had a lot of struggles with abandonment issues and not feeling like people received love, which is a form of rejection. You know the honest truth is I don’t struggle with that anymore because when those things would come up I would, I would pray and send those things away and I would find that my wife would do some things that she use to do that in years gone by would make me kind of feel unloved, I found that it didn’t affect me that way anymore. I might have the same thoughts, you know a thought might cross my mind, but that thought has no power, it has no feeling, has no ability to drag me back down. And there’s nothing magic about this prayer and you know you and I talked and know that I’m not much of a formula person, but you have this prayer of transformation I call it.
Sid: It’s going to be on a bookmark that goes with the eight CD series, and it is such, I find myself saying this often during the day as these emotions reveal themselves. And I think, it’s I feel as though layer after layer is coming off of me.
Jim: And that’s exactly how I feel so people call it peeling the onion you know, you just deal with it as it comes up.
Sid: But let me ask you this question, you mentioned a lot of physical healings that occur and it’d be good if it was just that but how much in the financial arena does it help there?
Jim: You know in the recent years I faced one of the most challenging financial situations ever. I had someone, an accountant, embezzle every penny that I had. I came home from a mission trip one day to find that that very day my house was going to be foreclosed on, our ministry property was going to be foreclosed on. I was $600,000 in the rears on bills, and 2 million dollars in the red. You can just imagine what kind of pressure that of pressure that immediately created for a ministry.
Sid: If you didn’t have a heart problem you would have gotten one over that.
Jim: You know here’s the thing about prayer of transformation you know it was a day by day thing where I would come into the office everyday and my staff would meet me, and it would be like “If we don’t have a $100,000 by 3:00 today we’re losing everything and what are we going to do?” And I would say is “What we are going do is we are going to go to the place of peace, we are going to go to a place where God can speak to us but we’ve got to put this stuff off first.” And we would pray and we’d bring ourselves back down to the place of peace, committing ourselves to the Lord and you know God will always lead us through solutions and day by day we walked through that. And God led us in great, in fact Holy Ghost solutions, and we walked that out to where a year and half, or two years later without ever taking up a special offering we had all of our bills caught up and everything was in the black just like it was suppose to. So that was one incredible situation. There was actually another situation where I needed to add a particular skill or skill set to some of our ministry efforts and I’d been looking for this person and looking for this person and looking for this person. And so I began to do some heart exercises and every time this would come in and discouragement would come and say “You tried to find this person, you hired two or three people to do this, you spent money you can’t find anybody to do this.” And I just you know every time that would come I would pray that prayer, I would bring myself back to the place of peace, and as I’d come back to the place of peace you know God would just speak to my heart and say “Be still, be still.” And what was incredibly interesting somebody called me within just a few weeks that I didn’t even remember that I had ministered to years ago, and they said “You helped me so much and I’m starting a new company and when he described to me what his company was doing it was the exact skill set that we needed.” And he said, “What I would like to do is I would like to donate this work to your ministry.” And they did, and our income increased 58%, I think it was, over the next 30 days.
Sid: In other words, when you can get rid of the junk you can have God’s prayers activated whether it’s finances, health or marriage or anything.
Jim: That’s right when you got all these emotions and feelings weighing you down, it’s like falling off a ship trying to swim to shore holding onto your suitcase, but when you let go of that suitcase it’s easy to pop it to the top and swim to shore.
Sid: How about marital difficulties?
Jim: Oh man, dealing with these trapped emotions and these things from my past has done more to transform my marriage. You know Brenda and I deeply love each other and really I didn’t think it could get any better but it keeps getting better. We’ve been married thirty-one years and it keeps getting better and better and better primarily because I don’t bring so many of my past issues into it anymore.
Sid: I would like you to briefly summarize the prayer of transformation, give us an idea of what’s it’s like.
Jim: You know when a feeling comes up a feeling or an emotion comes up for example let’s say my wife goes to the grocery store, this is frivolous, but this is the kind of stuff we deal with. My wife goes to the grocery store and there’s something I wanted her to get for me, she comes back, she didn’t get it, she didn’t remember to get it. And so this feeling pops up that says you know if she cared about you she would have gotten this; immediately right there I’m going to stop. And again it’s not just the fact that you pray this prayer word for word people can do it however you want to. I wrote this out because I found most people won’t stop if they don’t have a tool, but I’ll pray something like this “Father go to the very root of my being and resolve the origin of this feeling in order to bring every aspect to my spirit, soul, and body into harmony with Your truth and my identity in Christ. Search through every generation, every cellular memory, every action, every expression which has manifest, and every aspect of my being and heal me completely according to the finished work of Jesus. Fill me with life, and light, love and righteousness and peace and joy until I completely forgive myself for every inappropriate way that I’ve expressed my distorted perceptions and destructive behavior. And forgive every person, place and circumstance that has contributed to this thought or feeling because I choose to express my love for myself by allowing every mental, emotional and spiritual physical problem, and in appropriate behavior based on this root problem recorded in my DNA to be transformed. I choose being kind, I feel kind and merciful, I am kind and merciful, I am in Christ it is finished, it is done and I thank you Holy Spirit for the grace of God to live in this identity in Christ.”
Sid: I believe that this is the important missing link in your mentoring process.
Sid: We want everyone everywhere to realize the Jewish person that has crossed your path is not an accident. God wants you to demonstrate the kingdom to them and love them to Jesus. This is the time that God’s removing the spiritual scales from the eyes of Jewish people, this is the set time to favor Zion. If not now, when? I’m speaking to Dr. Jim Richards and he is mentoring you on walking in the supernatural. There is blockage stopping many Christians, many good Christian, many Christians that understand the word of God that have been confessing, and promising, and promising, and confessing, but there’s been blockages and they haven’t understood why but they still have been persevering, they have still been putting one foot in front of the other. Some are ready to give up, but on yesterday’s broadcast Dr. Richard’s you were talking about these trapped emotions that are blockages that are in us and this is actually referred to by the Prophet Jeremiah; he calls it footprints if you’ll continue on that.
Jim: Yeah, you know Jeremiah said, “That the heart is deceitful and disparately wicked above all things. “ Well we discover in the original language that really he says that the heart is covered with footprints and that’s why it’s still with chaos. And these footprints, these are imprints upon our heart that are affecting us to this very day.
Sid: Give me an example of some of the imprints that could be on some ones heart, just give me a list.
Jim: Let’s say that you got molested when you were a child, let’s say if you experience deep rejection or anywhere in your life. Any pain or emotion that you have or experience that you did not deliberately send away from you has the capacity to take up a residence in the cells of your body. And it actually creates warfare; you know the Apostle Paul said something that I found very interesting. He said that I found the war in my mind and you get that and he says that there’s a war in my body, but then he says there’s a war in my members. And I’ll tell you for years I didn’t, I just overlooked that I realized when I overlooked that I realized that when he says members that’s literally the parts of his body. He says that there’s something in the parts of my body that’s warring against me. And I believe that something is exactly what Jeremiah was talking about was the footprints that have come from the pain and the suffering of life. You know for example I have dealt with very commonly people who have been molested. And so a person gets molested and it’s a time of deep pain and deep shame and deep suffering. We know that things get written on the heart and the combination of information at times of strong emotion. So let’s say a little girl is getting molested and let’s say that her molester is saying what almost all molesters are saying, “You know you want this,” and he’s saying “I’m doing this because I love you.” And this child has this strong information that says this is happening because of love and this strong emotion get’s written on their heart, and there’s a lot of shame and degradation, but they don’t know what to do with it because they are a child. So later in life, when they desire to be in a loving relationship immediately they find themselves going to some place that’s very immoral even though they’re trying to serve God, they want to walk with God, they don’t even understand where this was coming from. And you know they try everything in the world to get rid of this but what they don’t realize is that they have a cellular memory or a footprint if you will, that is in their members warring against them.
Sid: Well, let me ask you this let’s take another subject. Pornography, physiatrists say you’ll always have that problem, but you have to learn how to control it. That’s not what you’re saying, is it?
Jim: No, that’s not what I’m saying you see remember the word forgive literally means to send away. See we think about forgiveness as when somebody has wronged me, that person does something bad, something that’s painful, something that hurts me, we think of forgiveness as I’m going to tell that person that it’s alright, it doesn’t matter what they did to me. But in fact, forgiveness is not what I do about the person who has wronged me as much as forgiveness is what I do about the offense that I’m experiencing. You know Jesus warned us that whenever our brother offends us we better take heed, but why? Because when our brother offends us it become an offense and an offense is something that has the capacity of make me stumble. And I can stumble toward my brother by justifying all kinds of anger and wrath or murder or anything because of the pain that this person has brought into life.
Sid: Well, you know it’s not just an area of forgiveness, it could be shame, it could be fear, it could be any of these things. What I’ve found fascinating is you talk about people react to circumstance, and they’re really not reacting to circumstances, they are reacting to those memories that are trapped inside of them. And they think that it’s the circumstance that’s causing them to be fearful or to be angry or some other emotion or be ashamed. But it’s got nothing to do with that and so they are going in a circle getting nowhere.
Jim: Exactly that offense that they experienced from that person because they didn’t know that they could send it away. It becomes trapped and so let’s say if it’s…
Sid: Okay, give me an example though before someone sent it away.
Jim: Well, you know to send something away is where it’s so simple that’s it’s discussing.
Sid: And also explain what you mean by send it away.
Jim: Right, well again the words forgive means to send away. Jesus said, “If an offense comes I can forgive, I can send it away or I can hold on to it, and those are the only two options.” Now whether we understand those are the only two options or not that is what happens. So let’s say for example you know when I was a child my step-father, when I was eighteen years old I went back home to visit and my step-father broke into the room I was in and he stabbed me in my sleep and would have killed me if I had not gotten away. So I’ve got all this rage toward my step-father. Now I didn’t know it at the time but I had a choice that I could have sent that rage away, now that had nothing to do with how I felt about my step-father, but see I spent years in rage, I spent years. And I would get in a circumstance that was threatening I would just go crazy with violence and with rage that didn’t even make sense. What I was really doing was tapping into that offense that cellular memory that I held on to all of those years. And so the time came in my life and I discovered that I have the authority to do this as a Child of God and being created in the image of God ,I can take the authority and particularly because I’m a believer, I can take authority over anything that’s affecting me.
Sid: Even though it’s such an old memory that was trapped that you don’t even think about it anymore. I mean how do you deal, I know how you can deal with something the minute it happens if you have the tools and you’re aware of doing it, but how do you take care of the things that happened when the child was in the womb?
Jim: You know I was praying and meditating one day and while I was in that place in my heart where I was connecting with God and I just, see I know that fear is what caused me to have a kidney disease because fear affects your kidneys. And I was just praying and saying “How did I get this kidney disease”, and you know I was at one of those places where instantly I had what was guess like a small mini-vision and I could hear my father’s voice and my father was being cruel to my mother, and then I heard my mother’s voice, “after I deliver this baby he’ll start beating me again.” And I realized that what the Lord was allowing me to see and hear was when I was in the womb my mother lived in fear of what would happen to her. And so in the womb I had this fear literally imprinted in my cells and while my kidneys were being formed it affected my kidneys. So I get down the road, and here I am at this point, I’m in my 30’s or maybe the 40’s when I have this experience. So immediately I just went to that place and I said, “Fear I send you away in the name of Jesus, and in my heart I did everything I could to experience it to see in my heart to see that fear leaving me.” And so one of the things that I’ll do then is I’ll say, “Okay, I want to see if this is really working.” and I might take a scripture for example I might take a scripture about healing because it got down to healing I might quote a scripture and say, “By His bruising I am healed right now, I am completely made whole.” And I’ll just stop and wait a few minutes and see what do I really feel when I say that? And my first feeling was doubt; this isn’t really going to work. Then at that point I’m going to say, “Did Jesus take care of doubt whenever He was raised from the dead, did He conquer doubt?” Yes He did. Am I in Jesus? Yes, I am. Then if I’m in Jesus I don’t have to have this, I’m going to send away doubt, so literally I just say, “Doubt I send you away in the Name of Jesus.” And then I quote that scripture again, I thank you Father by the stripes, and by the bruising of Jesus I am healed right now, healing is mine I am whole and well. And then I Just wait and see what I feel, maybe the next feeling that comes up is embarrassment; you know you are in the ministry you should have already conquered this dealt with this. Now I ask myself the question. “Did Jesus do anything about embarrassment when God raised Him from the dead?” Yes, He did he conquered it. “Am I in Jesus?” Yes I am. “Do I intend to give rid of this embarrassment?” Yes, I do. Embarrassment, I send you away you are not from God, you have no place in me. And I’ll go through every emotion and sometimes you’ll go through layers of emotion because you spend your life having different emotional reactions to the same problem. And when I get to the place where I come down and I say “By His stripes and by His bruising I am healed and by the blood of Jesus I acknowledge I’ve been washed, da da da da I’ll go through this and when I can quote that promise and feel absolute peace…”
Sid: Sorry we’re out of time.
Sid: My guest Dr. Michael Brown, we are plate forming his new book “What do Jewish People think About Jesus? And other questions Christian ask about Jewish belief, practices and history.” You know what Michael I think most Jewish people don’t even know the answers to most of these questions.
Michael: Yeah, I think so I think if you ask your average Jewish person why do Jewish men cover their heads or what’s the tradition of that or why some of the outfits, or why in certain ultra-Orthodox the women shave their heads and wear wigs?
Sid: Everything you have in this book is so fascinating, but I have a few questions; I want you to explain what Kabbalah is and what your position is on Kabbalah.
Michael: Sure, Kabbalah literally means that which is received, it’s the passing on the traditional Jewish mystical teaching. The central book of Kabbalah is called the Zohar, and traditional Jews believe it is written as early as the 2nd century of this era and other scholars date it as a thousand or so later.
Sid: In Hollywood, the reason I ask this, in Hollywood it’s the in thing for people to be studying Kabbalah, is this good or bad?
Michael: Okay, it’s definitely bad; it’s the pop version of Kabbalah. So let’s separate that first.
Sid: It’s the Pop version of Kabbalah?
Michael: Yeah, in other words it’s kind of a bastardized version. It’s to wear the scarlet thread around your wrist. In traditional Judaism you’re not supposed to study Kabbalah unless you’re a married man, well studies in Torah and forty years old. In other words this, Kabbalah in traditional Judaism…
Sid: That leaves out Shirley McLain.
Michael: And Britney Spears and Madonna etcetera. So it’s very esoteric, now Kabbalah itself, in other words not the pop version that everybody’s into today, which some have said is just like a restyled self-help New Ageish kind of thing. But the traditional Jewish Kabbalah is very esoteric, very difficult to understand. It has some major concepts that for example because God fills the entire universe or fills everything that is in order to create the universe He had to constrict Himself to make room for the universe. So He constricts Himself and then puts the universe in place, but then there’s this catastrophe it’s kind of like this universal spiritual fall, and the vessels get shattered and these pieces of light are everywhere in the universe and there’s these lights in every Jewish soul that if Jewish souls will then follow the commandments of Moses it will kind of rekindle the light and the spark. And the ultimate goal is what is called “Tekun ha-olam” , the restoration of the world, you know the repairing of these broken vessels and so on. It’s very esoteric and mystical, and I’m sure some of it, if people really get into it opens them up to some kind of demonic influences and sources because it is to esoteric.
Sid: The older version of Kabbalah is a mixture and since you don’t know the difference, and the devil is so subtle don’t walk from Kabbalah, run from Kabbalah! Do not touch it! That is my spin!
Michael: You know the real stuff to me is much more mystical superstitious, you read the scriptures, it’s definitely not. Paul warns about these kind of seductive things, Revelation talks about satin so cold deep secrets and Sid there’s no question a lot of Christians get taken in with this. The great secret is all the wisdom of God, all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hidden in Yeshua, and hidden in the cross, the place nobody would think of looking, some crucified Jewish carpenter, a guy dying a criminal’s death. That’s where God hides the treasures of His wisdom and knowledge. But these false revelations come and say “We will enlighten you, come our way we will enlighten you.” Even in the church people are looking for the secret revelation, how about the glory of God as revealed in Jesus, what is higher than that?
Sid: Okay, new question, hell. Is that a Christian concept, what do Jewish people believe about hell?
Michael: What do Jewish people believe about hell? Well, most Jews today are fairly secular, and don’t really believe in an afterlife at all, So there is not even a sense of a hope of life beyond the grave for your average Jewish person in any kind of concrete way. For a religious Jew there is a hope for resurrection from the dead although not in the fervent way that Christians would say someone’s left this body, their with the Lord, there is rejoicing. But on the hells side traditional Judaism only hints here and there in an eternal hell otherwise it believes in some form of punishment because basically everybody accept the perfectly righteous has fallen short on some level, and there may be a period of punishment up to one year because basically nobody is that bad, you’re got maybe eleven months of purging, suffering after death.
Sid: So how do they handle Daniel that talks about everlasting life or everlasting condemnation, and everlasting’s pretty long time?
Michael: Oh Daniel 12:2 seems to speak of eternal consequences for not being right with God that would be either read in terms of well the shame forever and ever, not that you are going to feel the shame or be alive to it. But the more simple answer Sid is that Judaism is not primarily based on what’s taught in the Bible alone it’s primarily based on Jewish traditions. And so hell is believed according to what the Talmud teaches and other things, and the Talmud teaches that basically most people go down for a little while and then go up.
Sid: What about heaven, what’s the Jewish belief and I read a commentary once that the early Christian belief wasn’t in heaven as it is today.
Michael: Yeah, the idea that this kind of going to this place and sitting on the clouds where the angels strum their harps is certainly a very very foreign concept. The thing that Jewish people, religious Jews are waiting for more is the Messianic era when the Messiah will establish peace on earth etcetera which is why they can’t see Jesus as being the Messiah. Of course there are solid answers for that. That’s the first thing this time when the Messiah’s going to come establish peace on earth etcetera, that’s what they’re looking forward to, and then the world to come beyond that in traditional Judaism is the place that you get to study Torah forever and ever. It’s a projection of this world for the Rabbinic student, but let’s just say that the hope was a bit more earthly; the hope was not just to go somewhere and some soul-less way and float along, but to have a resurrected body and to have a concrete future hope. And I think that some believers have lost sight of the concrete nature of our future hope; ultimately God’s kingdom was going to come down here on earth forever.
Sid: But what about Christian view the early Christian view of heaven, was it evolved like it is today?
Michael: We don’t have evidence that it was evolved as it was. There was certainly to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
Sid: But the idea of heaven, you know a whole world that is without evil, that whole concept.
Michael: Certainly, that was the hope of the prophets that they do no more war, no more hatred, no more harm on God’s holy mountain. That the wolf would lie down with the lamb, and the lion would eat straw with the oxen, that was absolutely looked forward to in the concrete way. So that Acts 3 they’re talking about what the prophets spoke of; the restoration of all things. That’s what they were looking forward to; Jesus speaks in Matthew 19 about the time of regeneration.
Sid: Alright new question because you deal in detail brilliantly with so many of these questions that many Christians never even thought of. Asking, should Christians unconditionally support the nations of Israel?
Michael: You cannot unconditionally support Israel in every last decision because Israel’s a flawed nation, even though it has many good qualities. So to say unconditionally meaning absolutely every decision Israel makes every Christian should support, “No.” Should Christians say “We have a covenantal commitment to stand with the lost sheep of the house of Israel, we recognize modern Israel as raised up by God and loved by God; we recognize we must show solidarity to that which God has raised up and that there is a future for Israel therefore we must support Israel. Absolutely, we should stand in strong support, we should be known as having great solidarity with the Jewish people because God’s ancient covenant because of the ongoing fulfillment of His covenant today. Paul said in Romans 11 that the Jewish people even though they were enemies on account of the gospel we’re loved by God on account of the Patriarchs, that has never changed.
Sid: We want everyone everywhere to understand the invisible world, to walk in the supernatural where miracles are normal not abnormal. My guest understands that invisible world; he has got what I believe is the best or one of the best documented modern day miracles I’ve ever seen. The evidence is overwhelming. His name is Ben Godwin, I’m speaking to him at his home just outside of Birmingham, Alabama. And Ben I want to tell you a sad story. One of my closest friends in the area I live is a medical doctor. He had the best practice in the city and he loved God, he believed in healing if anyone believed in healing he believed in healing. He developed cancer and with his dying breath he believed God was going to heal him and he didn’t and he died. It was a young man, he had young children, he had everything to live for, and a lot of people’s faith was crippled, they said, “If he could not be healed what chance do I have?” You wrote a book called, “God’s Strategy for Tragedy” it’s for people that survive what he didn’t survive. I’ve just postured so many questions in the example I’ve given you, I wonder if you would talk to that?”
Ben: Certainly, of course Paul told Timothy we have to fight the good fight of the good fight of faith. And I believe everything that we obtain and maintain from God is based on faith and I went through a recent tragedy, I lost my mother who was a rock of faith. I lost her back in May 13th of this year, and she like the person you mentioned, believed God with her dying breath. And I don’t feel betrayed, I don’t feel like God abandoned us; you know she had been healed many times over the course of her lifetime. In my opinion it was just her appointed time that God took her, but I would say to that person that’s struggling with questions. Don’t feel like God has abandoned you, and we’ll get into some of the reasons God allows tragedy, and the truth will set you free from those negative feelings and emotions.
Sid: Let’s go to that question, “Why does God allow tragedy,”
Ben: Yes, he could prevent it, there are several reasons. First of all, we have examples in the Bible where God allowed tragedy simply as an opportunity to manifest His glory. One example is Lazarus; Lazarus died prematurely and Jesus said, “This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God that the works of God maybe manifested in him.” In other words the only reason God allowed him to die was so that Jesus could come and raise him up and glorify Himself through that. So sometimes tragedy is an opportunity for God to supernaturally intervene and glorify His name. Now in other cases sometimes God allows tragedy to change our direction. A good scriptural example is the Apostle Paul before he was Paul he was Saul, and he was going with letters in his hand to Damascus to imprison, persecute and possibly execute Christians. Now when he was interrupted by a blinding light he was blinded for 3 days and then scales fell from his eyes and what happened? His whole direction in life was radically and dramatically changed by the tragedy that he endured. Of course another reason God allows tragedy is to draw us closer to Himself, there’s a quote that I love that’s in the book on page 97. It says “Adversity is God’s University”, and sometimes we don’t understand what we’re going through but God can use situations to soften our heart to draw us closer to Himself. There’s nothing like trouble that forces us to our knees, in fact Abraham Lincoln during the dark days of the civil war said, “I have been driven to my knees many times with the overwhelming realization that I had nowhere else to go.” And so sometimes God can use tragedy to draw us closer to Himself.
Sid: Now I believe that that is what’s going to happen to our country in the next few years.
Sid: I believe that there is going to be a major move of God’s Spirit and it’s going to be because of tragedy, unfortunately.
Ben: Well, unfortunately sometimes it takes drastic measures to get people’s attention. Some people have become so apathetic, and they’ve hardened their hearts so much that it takes something really dramatic. Look at the response of America after 9/11, look at the response of America after the Hurricane Katrina and other natural disasters. It’s like we turn to God for brief a brief time, but then when everything’s back to normal we kind a lose our focus.
Sid: The church is swelled up 30 days later, they emptied again.
Ben: Yes, so it’s going to take something radical, something supernatural to bring America back to its knees, unfortunately.
Sid: God uses this, God allows it but is God doing the tragedy or do you believe that it’s the devil and then why couldn’t God just stop the devil? I mean these are kind of deep questions.
Ben: Oh, they’re very deep and I don’t pretend to have all the answers, but one thing I do stress in the book is that we live in a fallen world system. When Adam fell all of creation fell with him and things do not function like God originally intended for them to function. I don’t believe that God is out you know creating chaos, but I do believe sometimes He will withhold His hand or He will lift the hedge and allow things to happen that will cause people to draw close to Him. I think a classic example of that is Job. You know God said to Satan he said, “Have you considered my servant Job that there is none like him that walketh upright and eschews evil?” And Satan complains because he said, “God you put a hedge around about him and all that he has.” And I believe that’s true that there is a supernatural hedge around God’s covenant people, but sometimes as in the case of Job God will temporarily lift that hedge. Whether it’s a test, whether it’s to prepare us for ministry, whether it’s to draw us closer to Himself God will lift that hedge and the purpose is not to destroy us, the purpose is to workout redemption, the purpose is always to bring glory to His name in the end.
Sid: Now, you have a quote in your book, “You say that our response to tragedy is not the problem, but how we respond.” What do you mean?
Ben: That’s right, I don’t think it’s what we face in life that determines what we are, it’s how we react to what we face in life. See two people can go through very similar circumstances…
Sid: So are we fair weather believers, when things are good, “Praise God, praise God.” When things go bad do we attack the only one that can solve our problem?
Ben: Right. Well see, Jesus said in Matthew 5:45 “He makes the sun to rise on the evil and the good; He sends His rain on the just and the unjust.” And sometimes what were taught in faith circles is a little bit unrealistic. We’re taught that if you walk in faith then you’re a Christian then nothing bad will ever happen to you. Well that’s not Biblical we live in a fallen world. I like Job’s mentality. Job said this in the midst of all of his calamity, ten child were killed, all of his livestock were taken away, his own body erupted with boils and there he sat in ashes. But in the end he said, “Though God slay me yet will I trust in Him.” In other words, I’m not going to serve God because of what He gives me; I’m going to serve God regardless.
Sid: Now what I don’t understand is, I understand what you’re saying, what I don’t understand is that would be my attitude and has been when tragedy hits. But I don’t understand why it isn’t everyone’s, why isn’t it?
Ben: Well, I think it goes back to your relationship with God and your perspective. You know if you become part of the solid rock foundation of the Word of God then you can become unshakable. When my Mom passed away three months ago it was the hardest thing I’ve ever faced in my life but not for a minute was I bitter against God, not for a minute did I blame Him because I believe God is sovereign, I believe He’s in control despite what we face in this life. So it’s not so much why God allows tragedy to me the more important question is how we respond to it.
Sid: How should someone respond to tragedy?
Ben: Well, in my book I outline the three probably most common responses. Some people just become, well they blame God, they just outright shake their fists at God and say “Why me, why did You let me down, where were You when I needed You the most.” And they just out right blame God. Other people aren’t that defiant or that vocal, and they just turn it all inward. They wouldn’t so much verbally blame God but they become bitter in their Spirit. And there is a Biblical example of that. Naomi in the book of Ruth lost her husband, and two sons. When she came back to Jerusalem after ten years in Moab people didn’t recognize her. And they said, “Is this Naomi?” And she said, “Don’t call me Naomi which happens to mean, pleasant,” she said, “Call me Mara which means bitter for the Almighty has dealt bitterly with me.” And so she wasn’t blaming God but she had become bitter in her spirit where she could really thrive in her walk with God. And then the third response that I believe is the Biblical response is to believe, you just keep believing