SID: Sid Roth here with Sandra Kennedy. And she had a creative miracle, and out of that creative miracle she learned how to prove God. What do you mean by proving God?
SANDRA: I mean taking Him at His word, Sid. So many people know about God and do not know God, and have not settled in their mind that God is not a man, that He should lie. And if He said it, He will do it. Now it took me a process. We know a lot about God, but it takes us a little while to grab hold that He really is God. And I’ve always said, if God is God then God is God. If He’s God, He’s God, you know. And so that, even as a child that process stayed in my mind, even going to seminary where they were teaching that signs and wonders had passed away, and all that kind of stuff, because I was really taught that. And so but the reality that God had to be everything He says He is, and if His word is who He is, one and the same, then I could take His word, and if He said it and I would believe it, it had to come to pass the way He said it. I call that proving God. It talks about it in Isaiah. It talks about it when he says, “Come let us reason together.” And then when he talks about, you know, “Come and prove your case.” Come talk to me, is the way I like to put it. Come talk to me. Tell me why I should do for you what you say I should do. Take healing for a perfect example. He said that by the stripes of Jesus I’m healed. He says that he’s already done it. He said in His word, heal me. And so if I can believe, grab hold of that, and believe that word, then I can bring that word back. In Isaiah he also says that “His word will not return to him void”. That means that He spoke His word. He spoke it down on the earth. Then somebody has got to pick that word up and return it to him. And so I call proving God picking His very word back up and returning that word back to Him. This is what you said. You said that by the stripes of Jesus I’m healed. You said you said in your word, heal me. You’re the one who said that he’s done all this for me. So I’m holding you to your word. And that’s proving Him. That’s coming in and saying, this is what you said. I’m going to trust you. I’m going to take you at your word and I’m going to learn. First of all, you got to know what the Bible says. You got to understand the Word of God. You got to get in that Bible. You’ve got to understand it. But this doesn’t only work for healing. Now I have seen hundreds, actually thousands of people healed over all these years that God has used me in healing ministry. But most importantly, I see people taking the Word of God and letting that word become a reality to them, and then taking that word and saying, this is what you said. You can’t lie. God is not a man that he should lie, and holding that word back up to God, and I’m expecting you to do what you said you would do.
SID: You know, I have to ask you a question. When you had that tragedy, it’s what it was, with a chunk of your upper lip that won’t grow back, gone, you put scriptures all over. You know the scriptures. Why did you do that?
SANDRA: Because I’m a firm believer through all the years of dealing in healing, I’m a firm believer that we have to start over each time, almost, because we don’t keep the scriptures in front of our eyes all the time. Now Proverbs 4 says to do that. It says to keep the Word of God right in front of your eyes and that it will produce healing. But most of the time we do that based on where we are if you need a healing, physically. Then you will have those scriptures in front of you looking at them. If not, you can be written up in Armageddon.
SID: Now when you put them around, I mean, really describe this. Did you get, was it this size of paper?
SANDRA: Yeah. All sizes.
SID: And where did you put it?
SANDRA: I put it everywhere. First of all, on my mirror. I put it on the mirror in the bathroom and then I put it on the wall, in the kitchen, on the counters, everywhere. Some of them, most of them I would write, just handwritten. I’d make these big notes and I’d put them everywhere I go that I would see them along with a picture, with a picture of me smiling.
SID: Okay. I’m convinced you walk in miracles. But can anyone that is born again, that does what you did, walk in miracles?
SID: Tell me, in your congregation you have a healing center. You have a congregation. Tell me what’s going on with the people there?
SANDRA: You could not name anything that we have not seen God heal. You couldn’t. There’s no a disease you could name, Sid. I don’t care what it is.
SID: What about cancer?
SANDRA: Oh my goodness. It’s the top of the list.
SID: What do you mean the top?
SANDRA: I mean percentage-wise.
SID: Let’s get her out to Duke University or clinic quick.
SANDRA: Percentage-wise, we see more cancer and healings than anything else, percentage-wise. And we’ve seen, I mean, people come off, people with diabetes, people on kidney machines, heart, people waiting for heart transplants.
SANDRA: Nine people already that were brain dead. Plus, we’ve seen fingers grow, feet grow, new body parts. New body parts.
SID: You told me something that’s important. When you walk into someone that’s brain dead or in a coma, you speak to their spirit. Explain that.
SANDRA: Yeah. Well the Bible says that God is the Father of spirits. So you don’t let the flesh throw you. That’s just the house that you’re living in. So you don’t let the flesh call the shots. I mean, at your house that you live on whatever street you live on here, your house doesn’t tell you when it needs painting and what it needs doing. You are in charge of that house. I hope you’re listening. So spirit man, my spirit man lives inside of this body. This is my house. So if you were in a coma I would come in and talk to you as if you were not in a coma. I’d speak directly to the spirit man. I mean, no bars held. I mean, come right straight. I’d say, “Hello, Sid. How are you? And I want you to know I’ve come to tell you that Jesus is here to heal you. I will quote the Word to you. This is what he has already done.”
SID: What makes you think that I’m hearing this if I’m in a coma?
SANDRA: Because I know the spirit man. The Bible says that you and I are made in the image of God, and God is the Father of spirits, and we’re three parts: spirit, soul and body.
SID: What happens when weather comes to your church, hurricanes?
SANDRA: We speak to it. We speak to the elements. We take the same, everything I’m saying to you will work with the weather. It will work with your job. It will work with your marriage. It will work with your children. It will work in an economy that everything is falling apart. It will work if you take the Word. Again, process that Word until it becomes a reality to you. You got to get it out of your head. Get to your heart. You got to drop it out of hope. Get it down into faith. People come to God and hope. You got to move it to faith and you do that by meditating on the Word of God. Getting that word, thinking about it. What does this really mean. I would break the scriptures down. I would look at, He sent His word and heal me. What does that mean? And I would process it. By his stripes I AM healed.
SID: You have two minutes to pray for miracles like popcorn.
SID: For people that are watching right now.
SANDRA: Yes. In the name of Jesus, I tell you right now, all you have to do is remember you’re not trying to get Jesus to heal you. He has already done it. All I want you to do is to accept what he has done with your mouth. That’s how you release your faith. With your mouth, begin to say, thank you, Lord, that you have healed me. Forget about your body. Your body will catch up with your spirit. Let your spirit man rule the body. Don’t let the body rule the spirit. Begin to tell your body what your God has done for it and begin to speak to it in the name of Jesus. Thank you Lord that I’m healed in Jesus’ name. Thank you, Lord, for what are reestablishing in my body. Thank you that power of the blood is flowing through me. Thank you that by your stripes I am healed. I command in the name of Jesus like I did my lip to move, I command my knees to move, my arms to move, any part of my body in the name of Jesus. And then I begin to praise him, Sid. I praise him that he is not a man that he should lie, that he has done everything he said he would do. He did it more. He’ll do it for you. It will work for anybody for anything that you will take it and make God master and Lord over the situation.
SID: Well while you were speaking, the anointing is so strong on you, people with arthritis in your fingers where it hurts to bend your fingers, I command in Jesus’ name those fingers to operate the way God intended.
SID: You do that action now.
SID: And if your back aches, just bend over.
SID: Twenty seconds, pray for cancer, tumors.
SANDRA: Yes. I curse you in the name of Jesus. I mean, every tumor, I command you to shrink. I command you to die. I command you to fall off. I have seen them fall off. You fall off in the name of Jesus, and I life your body from the top of your head to the soles of your feet with word of the Lord that says that by his stripes you are healed.
SANDRA: And God says you are.
Sid: I got reacquainted with someone I knew a number of years ago Renny McLean. Just at the right time I believe it was a moment that God had ordained because I have in my hands his new book “Eternity Invading Time.” And if you really want to understand from Heaven’s perspective how to operate in Bible faith not rules and regulations but an understanding of this realm that God is in called eternity. Renny you’ve had heavenly visitations and I have to believe a lot of this is written in your book from a heavenly viewpoint.
Renny: Oh oh, totally totally is I mean you know when you have an encounter with the Lord your whole view of God changes you know. Anybody who’s had an encounter with God I can tell you you’re not judgmental. Because when you had an encounter with the Lord what you seen in His eyes is compassion. I mean He looks at you and knows everything about you and he’s not condemning you.
Sid: You know I’ve shared some personal things with Renny and actually I did it on the air this week but they’re personal prayers that I pray almost if not every single day of my life. And one is to walk in the compassion of the Messiah; I believe as you believe Renny before the Messiah returns there will be men and woman raised up that will walk in that type of compassion.
Renny: Oh, I believe that because the manifestation to the power of God’s glory is really and truly revealed through the love of God. And you know when it comes to the place where He’s loved becomes us you know my goodness nothing is impossible we’re walking in the realm with no limits.
Sid: Now when you say “Nothing is impossible” it’s one thing to someone for someone to parrot that expression but it’s another when what I see on what goes on in your various meetings even at a young age you saw dead people come to life. You’ve seen a number of dead people come to life, but tell me just kind of whet the appetite of some creative miracles. For instance, I read here in a meeting you had in Dallas there was a lady in a wheelchair who had a 5 inch pin in her leg.
Sid: And she had a great miracle; tell me about that.
Renny: Oh, what happened was we had been in the meetings for 3 nights while we were in 3 nights of meetings I clearly remember that was the night where wheelchairs were emptied. You know people were walking and deaf people were hearing; blind people and cancer were being healed. So faith was already high and you know when it’s already high I mean people can believe anything. And it was the night where people could literally believe anything; I just looked at this dear sister who had been coming to the meeting every night and she had a foot brace on and I said “Take it off.” And you know she obeyed me; she obeyed the Word of the Lord and she took it off and I clearly remember when she took it off she walked. We didn’t realize though the magnitude of the miracle we were just attracted because she could walk again and she was totally healed. Well the following week when she went to the doctor and came back to the church testify she said “Well I had one of the most interesting testimonies you’ve ever heard.” And she said “The doctors cannot find the pin that was in my leg;” it was 5 inches of tin or steel, or whatever they call it. When she went into the hospital and they had it examined all they saw was five inches of brand new bone.
Sid: And that should not be so strange when I read the Bible especially in light of the book that you’ve just written “Eternity Invading Time.” As you state in your book “Eternity God’s realm is drawing closer to our realm called time.”
Sid: I have to ask you a question through Renny “How do you personally view God, How should we view God?”
Renny: Okay I’ll tell you I love that question you asked me because this is where I think the church has to redefine what it talks about. Number 1 there’s a word I want to introduce to our believers and the it’s the word to conceptualize and it means nothing more than to teach us something in its original form. Now if we see God in natural terms God is out of context; if you see God in the supernatural than God is in context. The problem is we’re trying to make somebody supernatural; we’re trying to make Him natural and He’s not natural. And unfortunately in the west we really have done that down to a science. Isn’t it funny God probably saying “Don’t you find it funny the very definition of the word God means a supernatural being we want supernatural ability and He demands to be worshiped.”
Sid: And you know what in our Spirit filled charismatic churches…
Renny: Oh my goodness.
Sid: We’re not seeing the supernatural we’re hearing the talk about it.
Sid: But we’re not seeing the goods and people they go there long enough they learn literally unintentionally we’ve been discipled in unbelief.
Renny: Oh, you are preaching, you are preaching to the choir because I’m telling you Brother Sid I believe today I honestly believe today that when most of us preachers preach from the pulpit we honestly are ministering to educated unbelief. Because it’s unfortunate to say this but it the naked truth. If the truth be told this is what we’re dealing with; we have educated the unbelief of the believer to the degree that the unbelief of the unbeliever is now stronger than the actual faith in God. And so we have relegated God to a natural form to something that He isn’t; so God really and truly is out of context. That’s why it takes a revelation for you to operate in the miraculous; you can’t operate in the miraculous with common sense. See I’ve often said this Bother Sid see unbelief is the product of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; your unbelief reveals what tree you’re eating from because when you’re eating from the tree of life you’ve got nothing but faith; nothing but faith. And you got more sense to believe God than you have to doubt God. And you see I often say this “When reason is absent faith is present; when reason is absent God is now.” And even as I say now right now when reason, oh my God I just feel His… when I say reason is absent faith is present that means the miraculous is possible here and now. Everybody listening to this broadcast or this radio interview; everybody right now I’m saying to you right now “All things are possible to you right now as you stop trying to reason how God’s going to do a thing if you just let Him do it.” Oh my goodness gracious me you’ll find He’ll do it in more ways than one. I’m telling you the miraculous power of God is present right about now; because when you’re heads out of the way God will start to move. The most brilliant mind of our time was a man call Einstein. It was said that he used 12% of his brain 12%. And they say that we today use 8%, don’t you find it strange brother Sid that all of modern discovery that we know of today; the greatest inventions that have come about in the last 100 years. And don’t you find it strange that it’s come about with 8% knowledge. Can you imagine if we have 8% use of our minds today can you then imagine what Adam had before he sinned? We are practically retarded in comparison to what Adam was; so today Adam’s legacy to us today is unbelief, fear and doubt. But Jesus Christ Yeshua died on the cross and really and truly opened back that realm to us; the realm where there is no time.
Sid: You know one of the hottest things in secular radio are talk shows. Can you imagine if a man or a woman of God moves in this realm proclaiming the true gospel no mixture but the true gospel it’ll be the hottest talk show in America; in the world.
Renny: Oh, I believe it, I believe it but you see Sid it’s what you said to me earlier we have a seeker friendly church. And what’s happened today is this if you look on television today and you listen to a lot of radio broadcast right now do you not notice how the world wants the supernatural that’s why the psychic phenomena in America is so big. The reason why it’s so big is because the church rejected the ministry of the prophet and that’s why the counterfeit took off so big and made a huge killing off of it. So if the false prophet can generate that kind of income and keep his kingdom going my goodness what would the ministry of the prophet do in the church today?
Sid: Answer this question, why is it that the biggest Spirit Filled churches in the land most of the pastors have tight control and do not want change?
Renny: The reason being because I would say their scared of God showing up; because we don’t have a problem that we’re defining God in what God means we have a problem when He shows up. Because when God shows up He shows out; and I’m telling you that when God shows up He exposes everything. So the secret of it is that we got to just let go and let God. And that’s such an easy catch phrase to use. That is so real to let go and let God because until we let go; until we let go God doesn’t manifest Himself. And if the truth be told we really and truly is I’d say you know it’s a hard statement to say like this but I just got to say the truth. It really boils down to a control issue; that’s really what… you know Sid that’s really what it boils down to. It boils down to a control issue so the question is “Is Jesus Lord of the Church or is the Pastor?” That’s really what it boils down to.
Sid: You know that your speaking truth right now Renny but the presence of God is so strong now right I believe that and we’re just about out of time, but I believe anything could happen. I see ears popping; if your ears are popping and you hear better guess what’s just happened, you’ve just been healed. But you know on tomorrow’s broadcast by faith we’re going to get Marina on that’s Renny’s wife and her ministry is worship. And Renny what happens when someone is truly worshiping God?
Renny: Oh, when somebody’s truly worshiping God you become in harmony with God and when you become one with God through your worship cancer dissolves.
Sid: Okay mishpochah consider yourself challenged. I want you to understand this thing called life in this temporary period called time from eternity’s viewpoint God’s realm. Don’t miss the next move of God’s Spirit there is such truth in this book that so few Christians understand.
Sid: We want everyone everywhere to be so mentored in the Word of God that no matter what happens in the United States or the rest of the world it’s not going to affect you; it’s not going to happen to you because you are walking through faith and the integrity of God’s Word, not with a mental knowledge but in your heart. And I asked Don Gossett I want you to do a couple of things. Let’s start out Don today I would like you to just tell me by memory healing scriptures; just read about 10 or 12 of them, or perhaps you can even read it from one of the scrolls but just speak the word of healing for a couple of minutes; would you do that?
Don: It’s better healing has been such a faith builder and share in a broken down way the letter of the alphabet and in the scripture “Attend to My words incline thine ear to My sayings let them not depart from thine eyes; keep them in the midst of thine heart for they are life to those who find them and health to all their flesh.” And letter B “Beloved I wish that above all things that you may prosper and be in health even as your soul prospers.” And on and on the whole 26 letters of the alphabet have an accompanied scripture and that’s where the faith building process comes in is speaking the word. The Word of God itself; Jesus said in Matthew 8 “That the greatest demonstration of faith that He’d experienced was the Centurion servant to whom Jesus simply said “When a man says speak the word only and my servant will be healed; “He had not found such great faith in all Israel.” And speaking the word is a key to the release of faith for faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. And I’d like to accompany this with the fact that I urge people every day on my broadcast heard internationally to join me. I’d say “People let’s take a praise break, it’s time to pray for your anxieties, your oppressions and focus on Jesus.” And the Word says that “God inhabits our praises, He lives and dwells and manifests Himself.” I’d say people let’s begin right now to praise Him, join me as we say “Praise the Lord, 10 times.” And the results have been so astounding; I mean it’s been almost overwhelming to hear testimonies I’ve received from people everywhere.
Sid: Well, let’s do it right now, let’s do it 10 times Don. “Praise the Lord,
Don: “Praise the Lord, “Praise the Lord,
Sid: “Praise the Lord,
Don: “Praise the Lord.
Sid: “Praise the Lord.
Don: “Praise the Lord.
Sid: “Praise the Lord.
Don: “Praise the Lord.
Sid: “Praise the Lord.
Don: “Praise the Lord.
Sid: “Praise the Lord.
Don: “Praise the Lord.
Sid: “Praise the Lord.
Don: “Praise the Lord.
Sid: “Praise the Lord we praise you Lord, we worship you oh God.
Don: “Praise the Lord.
Sid: “Praise the Lord Jesus.
Don: “Praise the Lord Hallelujah!
Sid: Don I believe there’s a… I can feel a stream of the Spirit of God an if you will pray the prayer of faith and you believe right now you ask God to heal you of a specific condition whatever it is. Don I’d like you to pray a prayer of faith for those that are standing right now for that miracle.
Don: Lord Jesus, You said that where two of you shall agree on earth as touching anything they ask it shall be done for them from My Father in Heaven. And I agree with every person who is afflicted with infirmity of any kind cancer, diabetes, heart trouble, high blood pressure, people who are deaf or blind; people who are oppressed by paralysis in the Name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth I take authority over every spirit of infirmity. My brother, my sister receive God’s gift of healing; it’s yours to receive and be made whole in the Name of Jesus. Amen.
Sid: I’ll tell you I don’t see how any sickness could stand against that, but what God has done in Don Gossett all the thousands of miracles he’s witnessed in his life he wants to do in you but he doesn’t want to take 60 plus years he wants to do it quickly. Don tell me about what the devil meant to be a tragedy of your daughter when she was on a missions trip with you; tell me what happened to her.
Don: Yes we were coming from Nairobi, Kenya where we had had weeks of meetings and attended thousands of people. We were on our way back to America and during on the flight my daughter she sat in a different location that I did and I went back to see her and she said “Dad I’ve been vomiting repeatedly.” Then I just laid my hand on her sort of casually and prayed a father’s caring prayer but it wasn’t real depth at the moment. But then when before the flight arrived about a half an hour out of London the flight attendant came and said “Mr. Gossett your daughter has become very ill, she’s hemorrhaging virtually in every opening of her body and we have notified the London Airport, Heathrow Airport to meet the flight with a wheelchair to take her away. Well we got into the Heathrow Airport, they took her into medical examining room after about an hour a doctor came out and said “I’m sorry, we’ll have to take your daughter across the city to a hospital that specializes in tropical and infection diseases we think that maybe what her problem is.” So I asked if I could accompany her and they said yes. So we went in this ambulance across London when we arrived at this hospital a medical team came, they were all ready for her and they took her to an isolation room. I was not permitted to go in at the moment but after maybe another hour or so a Dr. Clark came out and said “Mr, Gossett I will do our best for your daughter but the prospect isn’t very likely, we don’t know exactly how to treat her because it’s not our ability to understand.” He said “You’ll have to leave but we’re going to give you 20 minutes alone with your daughter in the isolation room.” So I walked in that room and I said “Judy we haven’t got time for deep intercessions and I’m just going to speak the 26 letters of the alphabet of healing over you.” I then began to break them down step by step and apply to her condition in the Name of Jesus. I left after I was convinced that the Word of God was being confirmed and I went back to the hotel where I called several times to see how she was and the next morning and finally they said “Well, there’s 12 doctors around your daughters bed we don’t have a diagnosis of what the problem is.” So then this call came from this Dr. Clark and said “This is amazing, it’s like we had two different women in that bed, but now yesterday she was so afflicted every part of her body was just oppressed” and said “We gave her no medication because we didn’t know how to medicate her but said now “her blood pressure is normal; everything about her is free of pain; we are just now dismissing your daughter we’ll be putting her in a taxi and taking her to Heathrow Airport to meet you for your flight back to America.” And to me it was one of the nicest of nice has become a small word of gratitude that God touched my daughter and it was a mighty transformation. I mean it’s to me one of the most pronounced miracles I’ve ever witnessed is how my daughter being so critically afflicted; was given virtually no hope and then suddenly the power of God came upon her and she was instantaneously healed. But it was the action upon God’s word that alphabet of healing; anybody who needs healing for your body just as it was for me when the aneurism struck my body we spoke that every day for 6 weeks virtually and the healing power came and the aneurism dissolved from my body. And I praise God that it’s a real wonderful miracle and so these are truths that I know God will honor.
Sid: Now my understanding of scripture is, the closer we get the return of the Messiah, and if you haven’t looked up lately we are getting close. The closer we get to the return of the Messiah the more false Messiahs, false religions, false cults and if there’s any expert around on this subject I have him on the phone right now. His name is Bob Larson; you’re probably familiar with him through his television show or his books. I’m speaking to him at his office in Phoenix his International Headquarters is in Denver, Colorado. Bob from the time that you started investigating false religions and cults and New Age groups, you say there’s been literally an explosion of the numbers explain.
Bob: Well, I’ve been looking at this phenomenon for 30 years. When I started investigating it even 20 – 25 years ago there were a few hundred groups to which people could turn for alternative religion explanations, but the smorgasbord of spirituality is exponentially increased over the last couple of decades and in the last decade. So that there are 1000′s upon 1000′s of variance of belief out there. The point that I try to make Sid is that today everybody wants to be spiritual; nobody wants to be a nothing. They all want to believe in something but they want to make it up on their own; they want a little bit of this a little bit of that and that’s what is so dangerous about the religious marketplace today.
Sid: You know I had a phone call, this was actually a number of years ago, and a friend of mine that I lead to the Lord and I have to tell you that most of the time when I lead someone to the Lord I don’t have an experience. I had an experience when I lead him to the Lord and was almost like God was so pleased there was such a high call of God on his life. And then I get a phone call from him and he said “Sid I’ve got the answer and because you helped me I’m going to help you. I have just got involved in the course on miracles and it’s so wonderful.”
Sid: Well, I knew enough to know that it was a New Age ugly dark course no matter what they say.
Bob: Oh yes.
Sid: But I didn’t know the details. So I am so grateful that you came out with your book of “World Religions” a book of spirituality all the facts about 100′s of cults. I’m looking through the index of your book right now and I see a course on miracles. Now I have other books I must say that do what you did however none of the books are as thorough as yours and none of the books are as simple as yours. Did you do that on purpose making it so simple so that anyone could understand it?
Bob: Well, I really appreciate your kind comments; when we approach this said we wanted a USA Today style and grammatical form of communication. And the USA Today, which is the nation’s most popular and best read newspaper, aims at a certain reading level and it aims at a certain style that allows you to quickly digest it. So that’s what we try to do with this book so that anybody at any time could pick it up and in a few minutes have a fast answer to be able to respond to friends and love ones who get messed up in this stuff.
Sid: Well, let me ask you a question if I had had your book which I did not and my friend called and I could have grabbed your book off the shelf while I was talking to him and looked up course on miracles what would I have known about that just off the top of your head.
Bob: Well the first thing you would have known about it is that this book was given by demonic inspiration through spirit medium ship and automatic handwriting. So you would have known that there was a demonic source through this it’s not just somebody idea of religion that they wanted to invent. The second thing you would have known is that it’s very subtle in that it encompasses a lot of Christian belief’s practices, doctrines and ideas, but it twists them so it’s very deceptive it seems extremely warm and fuzzy but underneath it it’s deadly.
Sid: Let me ask you something even more important because if we don’t understand this will miss a lot of what the devil is up to. There is a catch phrase that you can’t turn on TV without seeing this catch phrase or seeing something illustrating it. It’s called “The New Age Movement.” Now many years ago over 30 years ago when I was Jewish and unsaved I was involved in what was called the occult, what is the difference, if there is, between the occult and the New Age Movement?
Bob: Nothing really except that the New Age Movement is sort of a public relations arm of the occult and it’s much more eclectic approach to it. It borrows from a lot of different traditions particularly eastern and mystical traditions. It is the same end result, it the same appeal to the ego for internal enlightenment and person spiritual development to find the god inside of all of us; but it’s much more deceptive. It’s not just out there it comes at you in the guise of religions development and the betterment of your spirituality and that’s what’s dangerous.
Sid: Well you know in Christian circles I have a great number of Christian friends that are involved in, people they call it Therapeutic Touch, what is that exactly?
Bob: Therapeutic Touch is a form of spiritual healing and massage therapy and there are variations.
Sid: But people get massages and say “Oh that person must be praying for me” but they’re not it’s not the same as a Christian prayer.
Bob: Oh no not at all and of course some of the most dangerous forms such as Reiki are outright demonic and they involve the calling upon the infusion of and the distribution of energy. This energy is not defined but it supernatural and they claim all sorts of emotional and physical healings as a result of it. In fact you can’t get a nursing degree in America most institutions today unless you practice Therapeutic Touch. Now what people need to know is that Therapeutic Touch they don’t actually touch the body, and so some of the more advanced forms of massage therapy they’ll touch you some but the real energy work as they call it it’s not touching the body it’s moving the hands over the body to redistribute the energy and bring spiritual balance.
Sid: What about my friends that say “I don’t do the occult areas of yoga I just do it for the exercise and it’s been proven it’s good exercise;” what would you say to them?
Bob: It’s hard to give a short answer in that but let me point out a couple of things. With yoga specifically you’re dealing with a millennial old religious tradition that is steeped in the belief of spiritual enlightenment. It’s interesting just this morning I took my bicycle in for repair and I’m standing there waiting for him to put a new inner tube in my bike and here’s a shelf with all the biking trips you can make in this area. And right in the middle of this is this yoga brochure. So I picked it up, and now this is typical, the first several stages that they invite you to participate in are essentially physical in nature but right at the end they talk about spiritual development, enlightenment, and get in touch with your inner self. If a person just innocently walking in a bike shop doesn’t expect to get a message from the devil about spiritual enlightenment that we know opens people up to demonic forces.
Sid: And that’s basically my question “What if someone’s intent is honorable and they get involved in yoga because they want the exercise and they actually feel better with the way they breath and the way they bend their body excreta what is the consequence?
Bob: The devil does not care why you do what you do and your intent is absolutely irrelevant to the spiritual legal right that Satan is looking to claim over your life. So when you align yourself with a religious tradition and a system that is…
Sid: But the person will say “I have nothing to do with the religious tradition.”
Bob: Ah, but you do have something to do with it. Implied consent is enough for the devil to begin to attack and harass your life spiritually. And you give implied consent by affiliating with this system even though that’s not your intent it’s part of the system and you can’t make it extent from the system you can’t divorce it from the system. You want to divorce it from the system but it can’t be divorced from the system.
Sid: Let me ask you from a another perspective it is know, because a great deal of your ministry is setting captives free, or the deliverance ministry; have you ever prayed for people that have picked up demons from being involved in some of things we are talking about?
Bob: How many hours do you have Sid? (Laughing) I could tell all kinds of stories; let me tell you just a couple or maybe one now and maybe one another time. I was in a conference and I was talking about this very thing and a little lady at the back a sweet gal I think was about 20 -21 and she raised her hand… She said “Excuse me Mr. Larson” but she said “I’ve taken massage courses and they’ve had me do some of these things you don’t think the devils in me in anyway do you?” And I said “Well, let’s pray for you.” And so she came to the front and I said “Would you be willing to renounce all of this?” And she started to speak and her lips froze and it just petrified her and she said “I know I need to renounce this but the words will not come out of my mouth.” And the Lord spoke to me and said “Take a Bible and just put it on the back of her spine and touch of each of the seven chakras. Now the chakras are the psychic enlightenment and energy centers that you find in yoga and eastern religions. When I touch the back of her spine and I just began to move the Bible up the back of her spine she began to shake, she began to tremble, she began to cough, she began to have what we would call demonic manifestation; she began to choke. It really shook her because she realized that there was something deeper here. We prayed over her and as we did this she begin to realize what she’d gotten involved in and she got free from it through the renunciation of it. That’s just one story of many I could tell you.
Sid: Bob we’re out of time right now.
Sid: I’ve been so looking forward to my guest I’ve known him for many years his name is Lance Lambert. He has lived in Israel since 1973. When I think of my good friend Doctor Derek Prince, I normally think of Lance Lambert because Derek lived in Israel and Lance lived in Israel, they’re both prophetic into what the scriptures have to say about the last days. Recently as you know, Doctor Derek Prince went home to heaven. Lance, what were… I know you spent time with him just before he was promoted, what were Derek’s thoughts about the nation Israel, the future, and the United States that he articulated to you?
Lance: Well Derek felt very strongly that Israel would face very much more suffering and trouble. I think the withdrawal from Gaza is just one aspect of that since he went. He also felt very very strongly about the United States that although there were so many good things about President Bush’s administration, he felt the United States was on a collision course with God.
Sid: It’s interesting you’re saying that, I have a close friend Lance I don’t know if you’ve ever met him, his name is John McTernan and he’s given me several articles; he’s the one that God originally spoke to and showed a direct correlation between the United States doing something against Israel, and almost within 24 hours there were judgments that had occurred from hurricanes to stock market problems, to even 911. The greatest skeptic who looks over how many times and how it’s so close to an ant-Israel stance would have to say “There’s something very supernatural when United States goes against Israel.” Have you looked at those reports that he has?
Lance: Yeah I don’t know John McTernan personally, but I do know his writings, and I’ve had I believe a might say even a letter from him. At one time when I was thinking what I said in one of my updates was fanciful. He said “Don’t say it’s fanciful” and he sent me all these correlations of events. I must say myself that I believe the United States is in a very very dangerous position. She is in the same position that the United Kingdom, Great Britain, was in 1946.
Sid: For those that aren’t familiar would you paint us a picture of what happened to Great Britain?
Lance: Britain began as a great friend of the Jewish people with the Belfour Declaration they supported the Aliyah in the last part of the 19th century, and the beginning of the 20th. When they got the mandate from the old league of nations, they opened the doors to Jewish immigration. The land was basically depopulated all the nonsense about it being packed with Palestinians was absolute nonsense, it was a pretty well depopulated country. Added eroded swamp land much else, but then they began to become afraid. I think that in the British Foreign Office and Colonial Office there were those who felt that the Belfour Declaration was a terrible mistake. They couldn’t say it officially because it was official policy, but they worked to undo it. I think it’s anti-Semitism, anti-Semitism in my estimation is not something to do with the head, it’s not academic it’s a heart thing, it’s a spirit. I think that gradually they worked with one white paper after another closing the doors to the Jewish people in the 30’and 40’s when they most needed a place of refuge. Of course lost 57 members, 58 members of my family including my father and grandmother in Auschwitz.
Sid: Because of course Lance you come from a Jewish background. Tell us what repercussion occurred, and by the way, it’s so obvious now looking backwards that literally Great Britain was playing right into the devil’s hand to destroy Jewish people, almost as if they were in league with Germany.
Lance: They weren’t of course. They were fighting a war with this huge force in Europe Nazism fascism, and they felt they were alone because America didn’t come in until the latter part of the Second World War.
Sid: I know you’re a real historian, why did America drag their feet?
Lance: Basically because of isolationism, the Americans didn’t see why they needed to get involved with a European problem. So they held off till toward the end. Now Roosevelt felt all along they should have come in, but he was unable to do it. It was Pearl Harbor that brought them in when the Japanese sort of bombed Pearl Harbor.
Sid: But as Great Britain literally put a vice on the Jewish people to stop them from getting to Israel. What repercussion did it have on Great Britain.
Lance: Well the fact was, in the end Air Force, the Navy of Britain became, as it were, the enemy of these poor people who were trying, the remnants of the holocaust, trying to get back somehow to someplace where they felt they would be safe. I think… I remember very well when I was first saved I sat in the church meeting in Richmond Surrey, England and I heard Allen Redpath on a Sunday morning and he got very very steamed up about this. He said “As surely as I stand here God is going to judge the British Empire and Great Britain for what she is doing to the Jewish people.” At that point RAF was literally bombing some of the refugee ships. He said “Britain will be an offshore island as a result of this.” I saw people get up and go out and I thought it was because he was going on a bit longer than normal and they lunch appointments.
Lance: I found out afterward from other friends that these who were people great patriots and couldn’t believe that Britain who had fought this war and was doing it, they thought, for the Jewish people that some pastor would stand up in a pulpit and say that “God would judge Britain.” But of course I lived to see I actually witnessed it myself, at least from Britain I saw the moment on the 14th of May 1948 Israel became a nation amongst the nations again a recreated Jewish state. At the very same time the British Empire fell apart the cessation of India, then the African countries, then the Southeast Asian countries and so it went on and on.
Sid: Okay, now let’s bring this to today. The US where as I believe our president happens to admire Israel, I believe our president happens to want to help Israel but he’s very misdirected in reference to Israel. He’s got this two-state solution he’s pushing it, he’s ramrodding it through. What effect is going, I’m a citizen of the United States, what effect is going to have on my country.
Lance: Colossal! It sounds in one word colossal! Because in my estimation Sid, God made a pack with our forefathers and He was explicit, it’s in Genesis 17. He said that He would make an internal covenant with them and would be their God. Then He went on and said “I will give you the land of Canaan as an everlasting possession.” Now when people tell that was only till the coming of the Messiah what in the world does the word “everlasting” or “eternal” mean unless it means something that will last forever. I mean why did the Lord use a temporal, or another word why call it everlasting and eternal if it isn’t eternal and everlasting?
Sid: You can’t pick and choose. It’s either God’s word or it isn’t, and if it’s God word follow it.
Lance: Absolutely. Another thing Sid is this, we forget, or it sounds a bit sort of up in the air, but we forget God is I AM, not I was, nor I will be, but I AM. That means that as far as… God lives in the present. Whereas, we live with the past, the present, and the future, but God is always in the present. Now that means when He made that pact with them it was as if He made it this morning. Now suddenly you get countries, presidents, other big prime ministers saying “We must change all this…
Sid: I’ll tell you what Lance we have to hold that thought. We’ll pick up on tomorrow’s broadcast.
Sid: My guest by way of telephone is Joan Hunter; you’re probably familiar with her parent’s Charles and Francis Hunter, known as the Happy Hunters. Joan was privileged to minister for over 30 years with their ministry. She’s seen every miracle imaginable, and miracles are normal, healing is normal. She has written a book, and we have offered and read many books on healing, but Joan I have to tell you your approach is different really than any I have ever seen. How did you come up with this approach where you come up with each disease, you explain exactly what’s going on, how to minister, how exactly to pray; even more important than that, why is it so important to be so specific, why can’t you just say, and you said this earlier in the week you put your hand on someone you say “Jesus” and they’re healed and it happens many times. Why did you get better results when you’re more specific?
Joan: The greatest example I have of that is when… I have 4 children they’re now grown, 4 daughters they’re now grown, and if I went into the game and I said to all 4 girls “I need the living room vacuumed,” they probably would not respond, but if I went in there and I said “Charity I need the living room vacuumed.” Charity would get up she would go in the other room and she would vacuum. Me being specific to my children I got a greater response. The same thing goes the more direct we can be to the name of the disease, the location of the disease, it’s like a Holy Ghost laser going in and the name of phlebitis is lower than the name of Jesus. When we can direct it toward the power of God… the power of God directed right into the person specifically for that disease then at that point… you have greater results I mean you have a greater result when the laser hits it right on the nose as in comparison to the surrounding areas.
Sid: Okay, on yesterday’s broadcast we were talking about an amazing chapter you have in your book called “The Immune System and Electrical and Magnetic Frequencies.” We know many people are selling these mattresses and these things that go on the body to get things… the patterns right. Talk a little bit about that, and what are some of the diseases that are a result. By the way we are not selling mattresses praise God! We’re telling people how to pray in the name of Jesus and see the same results. So explain it briefly, and tell me what types of diseases people might have as a result of this.
Joan: Many times there are unexplainable diseases, or untreatable diseases. That right there is a good start. There are 2 main things that bring on diseases, number 1 is stress. Eighty-five percent of the people that go to the doctors go as a result of stress. Stress itself can affect the electrical and magnetic frequencies in your body, thus it will show in pains here, pains there, diabetes, heart problems; if your body is in harmony and balance in the area of electrical and magnetic no disease can stay in your body.
Sid: What about things like insomnia, could it affect that?
Joan: Oh bi-polar, insomnia, I mean there’s probably 50 diseases in here that are a direct result of the imbalance of our body either electrically, magnetically, or chemically. Cause the food just doesn’t have the quality of the vitamins it used to. So we can even be obese and yet starving ourselves to death.
Sid: Okay, let’s just take that specific situation. If that is the root cause of the particular sickness that someone has what do we do about it?
Joan: It’s a very simple prayer, it’s very easy and we emphasize that throughout all of our teachings in the miracle services and everything. Once again if I can do it you can do it. This book has just outlined it so easily that anybody can do it. When you pray for the electrical and magnetic frequencies in a body to come into perfect harmony and balance then no disease can stay in your body, and it’s very very simple.
Sid: Now I want you to do this for real and I’m gonna pray along with you, and I want everyone listening to pray along with us.
Joan: It talks about there are many many locations in the body where that the immune system and the lymph system goes, and this is all explained through diagram and everything. It is important that we pray for the immune system to be restored.
Sid: Give me one very brief example, a specific person you prayed for this way and they got healed.
Joan: Fibromyalgia, I could oh probably a hundred people that were healed of fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue, sleep apnea, and…
Sid: Sleep apnea? I always thought that was a physical thing.
Joan: Well all the diseases are physical brought on by emotional, and when a lot of times when there is stress in the body it will shut down the proper electrical and magnetic frequencies in our body.
Sid: Okay, let’s pray.
Joan: Okay. Father in the name of Jesus I command all the electrical and magnetic frequencies in everybody’s body who is listening to this program to be in harmony and balance in Jesus name. Amen, that’s how simple it is.
Sid: My goodness you sure you don’t want to get a little more complex? [Laughing]
Joan: No because then I wouldn’t be able to do it. [Laughing]
Sid: I mean you have prayers here even… marriage. Tell me about one person that prayed a prayer in this book, or you prayed for a person in this book. Tell me what happened to their marriage.
Joan: We just prayed over them, and we prayed in addition to what’s in the book is that they would be sensitive in a greater way to each other’s needs, and that their ears be open, and God has healed their marriage. I can’t even begin to tell you…
Sid: Alright but what about if one spouse reads the book and is willing, but the other spouse is not. Would it help their marriage?
Joan: Yes! That’s on the one of putting your, I don’t remember exactly what chapter is at this point, but laying your family in different situations on the altar of God. What happens is so often we try to become… we want to be God’s agents, but we become more than that. In the process of laying our children on the altar, laying our spouse on the altar giving them, for example, I lay my husband on the altar “Father he is Yours I’ve tried to fix him it didn’t work and in Jesus name I thank you that You’re gonna fix him. Father I thank you for fixing me, and I’m gonna take care of me and You’re gonna take care of him. I’m gonna be the best Godly wife there is, and Father it’s up to you to change him because I can’t and I’ve tried.”
Sid: Okay you have a chapter that intrigues me immensely because I know that is what I want God to do for me. That is walk in compassion. None of these other motives that might be in there when I pray for the sick, I want to pray for the sick because my heart is breaking for them. I know this can only come from God. Do you pray for people to be able to walk in God’s compassion?
Joan: Yes I do. When I go around the country I do anointing services and I pray over people, and I pray for them to walk in the anointing the transference of the anointing…
Sid: Can you do this over the radio right now and over the tape?
Joan: I can sure pray, you know, it’s God that does the anointing.
Sid: Yes, but it will be just as effective.
Joan: I have no doubt on that one.
Sid: Okay let’s go for it.
Joan: See the anointing depends on your receptivity. For those that want to walk in the blessings of God, want to walking in the anointing, the anointing is there.
Sid: Alright our time is slipping away.
Joan: Okay, Father right now in the name of Jesus, and everybody put their hands on their eyes. Father I pray right now in the name of Jesus that their eyes be enlightened to the people that are around them that are sick. Put your hand on your heart, Father right now in the name of Jesus I pray that they have a heart of compassion towards those who they see and that you will love through them in Jesus name. Father I thank You that their mind is anointed, their ears are open, and Father that their hands are anointed as they lay hands on the sick, they shall be healed. Father in Jesus name let Your anointing fall on all ears that are listening in Jesus name. Amen.
Sid: Amen. Well I’m expecting that there’s a whole army that has just been raised up that are going to be doing exactly what you’re doing.
Sid: My guest Jennifer LeClaire and she’s News Editor with Charisma Magazine. Jennifer we read in the Bible all you need is a mustard seed of faith that’s the littlest, tiniest seed there is and you can move mountains. But the truth of the matter is there is a disconnect most Christians don’t have their prayers answered, why?
Jennifer: Well because there’s a misconception that all you need is a little faith and yeah all you need is a little but it’s got to be pure faith. You know the Bible talks about two types of faith: Great Faith, and Little Faith. Just some quick examples, you know we see Abraham had great faith, David had great faith, Joshua, Caleb had great faith. In the New Testament we find the centurion had great faith, the woman whose daughter was possessed by a devil; Jesus talks about them having great faith. But what I find really interesting is that His own disciples on more than one occasion He rebuked them, or He called them out corrected them for having little faith. And the bottom line is that they had the Living Word with them; and yet they had little faith. We have the Word of God, we have the Old Testament, the New Testament, we have the stories of the heroes of the faith and too often we have little faith. That’s because we’ve allowed doubt and unbelief to creep in and contaminate our faith. We’ve allowed fear to contaminate our faith and our job as believers is to believe and we need to cultivate pure faith. We need to cultivate mustard seed faith but it used to be pure faith. And we can do that by mediating on the Word of God, I mean there is many different ways to do that but it can be done. We don’t need mountain moving faith to move mountains, we just need pure faith. In other words, we don’t need faith the size of a mountain to move a mountain we just need pure faith.
Sid: And now you used the word that a lot of people hear but they don’t understand how do you personally mediate on the Word of God?
Jennifer: That is a really good question because the New Age movement has tried to take on those same terminology and a lot of people in the Body of Christ they sort of think meditation is taboo but it’s not. The Bible uses it; Joshua in the book of Joshua we see that God said to Joshua “Meditate on this Word day and night and then you will find good success, you’ll make your way prosperous.” And if you look at that word mediate in the Bible you’re going to see that it means to chew on, to roll it over in your mind, to confess it; to mutter it. And that’s what we need to be doing we need to be speaking the Word out of our mouth. One way that I like to do things is I’ll take a scripture and I’ll take just a bite of it at a time so if the scripture is “I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.” I’ll go through that scripture a number of times and begin to emphasize one word each time. So I’ll say “I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.” Then I’ll say “I CAN do all things through Christ who strengthens me.” And by emphasizing each of those words it just resonates in my spirit it just feeds my spirit, it just builds up my spirit and I pretty soon I memorize that scripture, I begin confessing it when something comes up against me when doubt comes up against me, unbelief, when fear begins to speak to my heart to speak to my mind. It just automatically comes out of my spirit “I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me” or whatever the word is that’s applicable to the situation because the Holy Spirit really does put us in remembrance of the Word. He really does instruct our hearts but we have to put the word in our heart if we want the Word to come out of our heart when the pressure comes on.
Sid: And most people have the word in their mind, and we talked earlier about this mental assent; they absolutely agree with the Word of God but it’s not in their spirit. I know that by meditating on the word especially the way you teach it, it will get in their spirit because if it was just in their mind no wonder it doesn’t work.
Jennifer: And you can’t just read it you know you got to have the word in front of your eyes, in your ears and in your mouth. The Bible says that “Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.” I think personally in my life I’ve seen that there’s nothing more powerful than when I hear myself speaking the word of God.
Sid: Let me just say this, doctors have stated that if you tell a lie long enough you won’t even remember it’s a lie; you will think it’s the truth that’s the way we’re built. So how much more if you tell the truth long enough to yourself?
Jennifer: That’s right that’s what so important what we say about ourselves and we talked about self-doubt earlier we’ve got to be saying what God says about us. And I really think that’s the first step is getting rooted and grounded in who you are in Christ and then speaking from that place because when you know who you are and you know what belongs to you faith is just it just comes.
Sid: Now, just out of curiosity you’re a single mom did you teach these principals to your daughter and how did it play out in her life?
Jennifer: I do, I have taught them to my daughter she goes to a church that also teaches these same principals and it has worked out in her life. She’s a very talented musician, last year she was second chair in the band and she really had her heart to become the best and to become the first chair. And that’s really unheard of because she’s one of the younger kids in the group, but it turns out that as she believed the Lord and as she practiced; now it’s not all about confess we’ve got to do our part you know we’ve got to take action. And she practiced and she confessed and she stuck with it and believed God and now she’s going to be first chair. That’s just a small story of a teenager’s faith but she has seen other times where God has…
Sid: Well, let me just ask you this how about in the health arena these young kids get sick all the time what’s going on with your daughter.
Jennifer: Oh no she doesn’t ever get sick she walks in divine health she had her shots when she was five years old and she’s been only to the doctor one other time since then. Honestly you know we take our vitamins then we confess the word and I think we can do natural things and we can do spiritual things and the combination of that sort of wisdom it can produce miracles in your life.
Sid: Now in your book that we’re making available “Faith Magnified” or “How to be Free from Doubtaholism.” Tell me about that word doubtaholism.
Jennifer: Yeah I believe that doubt is like a spiritual disease it’s comfortable to alcoholism and that’s sort of a play on words from that perspective but it’s debilitating. I mean just like the alcohol debilitates you it causes confusion and depression and fear and anxiety and all of these horrible things; so does doubtaholism it produces instability in your life, double-mindedness, back tracking and inability to receive the wisdom of God. These are all the opposite of faith, I mean God has given us a measure of faith, He has not given us doubt, He has not given us fear, He has not given us unbelief.
Sid: Well, what you teach in your book is how to break the cycle of unanswered prayer and if that’s you I would love for you to teach a little bit on the 12 steps, so that people can get rid of doubt and unbelief and be able to have this great faith.
Jennifer: It all starts with admitting that you have a problem; I mean really the first step to getting doubt out of your life is to see it for what it really is. And honestly no condemnation intended here but it’s a sin to doubt the Word of God; the Bible says “Without faith it’s impossible to please God.” But it also says “That with faith all things are possible.” So we have to see that when we’re doubting God’s Word you know we’re in the wrong. God is never in the wrong; when our prayers are not answered it’s not God’s problem it’s often times we have a problem. Oftentimes it’s a lack of faith or a lack of the pure faith that we were talking about in our lives. So that’s really the first step is really recognizing it and that’s the problem is so many times we don’t recognize that really it’s doubt there’s doubt in our hearts. And of course we don’t want to admit it because you know after all who wants to admit that they don’t believe God’s Word especially in the Christian World you know we want to look good without friends but we need to humble ourselves and we need to say “You know what, I’m having a real struggle here with this doubt, I can see it I can identify it I hear these thoughts in my head and I want to get rid of it and that’s the first step.” So once you’ve admitted your problem you need to confess the fault you know the Bible says “Confess your fault one to another so that you might be healed.” And we also need to confess it to God and we need to confess it to our peers if we’re having a struggle, if we really need to help we need to get reinforcement. But we also need to confess it to God then let God; “God you know what I haven’t believed Your word I’ve doubted You in this area and I’m sorry.” And we need to confess that to God and Bible says “When we confess our faults, when we confess our sins He’s faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleans us from all unrighteousness.” And that’s really the key we’ve got to be up front; look God knows if there’s doubt in your heart He knows and so it’s not a secret to Him. We have to confess it it’s a spiritual principal of confessing our sins, confessing our faults that we might be healed that we might be delivered. That’s where true healing and deliverance begins from this thing called doubt and unbelief.
Sid: When someone sits under your teaching and goes through these 12 steps and they get rid of doubt and unbelief, what happens to their prayer life?
Jennifer: Well they begin to see prayer answered it’s almost like unclogging a clogged drain, I mean just lets the faith flow freely they begin to get confidence. I mean it begins with little prayers and that they build their faith and they see prayer answers in small areas they begin to pray for even greater things and they begin to build greater faith. That’s really what it’s all about in God’s Kingdom faith.
Sid: The Messiah said “You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.” My guests Betsy and Chester Kylstra were just like you they were born again, they loved God with all of their heart, but there were blockages that were just…and they didn’t even know where they came from. So God supernaturally began revealing keys to them and over the years they so streamlined this. But what I’m curious about Betsy and Chester is how did you originally get the revelation for teaching on identity?
Chester: Yes, it was an amazing thing we had actually been ministering now for several years using the integrated approach in tremendous changes in people lives. One day we were ministering to this woman who was particularly bound up. We were getting ready to do the deliverance and we’d done the first three areas and we were ready to remove demons and I say to her “We see a real powerful combination here of shame and of fear and of control and we don’t really know how they’re working together and yet it’s clear that they are to really keep you trapped.” And she looks at me with this sort of innocent face and says “How do they work together?” And my first thought was “Lady I just told you I don’t know why are you asking me?” And the next thing I heard come out of my mouth was the explanation of how they work together and I quickly turn to Betsy and say “Right that down, I think God just showed us something.” But basically through abandonment the devil is able to bring into our lives the questioning “Who am I?” and “What’s the matter with me?” “Why am I different from other people?” My different was being a little kid with no father, and all the victim that came with that, so…
Sid: Or it could have been an absent father and mother would have had the same results I believe.
Chester: Yes, we call it emotional abandonment, when someone grows up in a family where they literally got a father and mother but there is no connection there, really on their own.
Sid: Explain to me what…just define shame, fear, and control.
Chester: Yeah, we’ll it is an identity issue as you started out, shame says there’s something a matter with me. We use a phrase it says to us “You are,” it always talks in first person, “I am uniquely and fatally flawed,” I’m unique I’m the only one like this in the whole world, and fatal means I can’t do anything about it.”
Sid: And you know what? People keep these secrets they think they’re the only ones with these problems and I heard someone say once “Our secrets keep us sick.”
Chester: Yeah, true because how can our parents understand and I’m the only one like this in the whole world. And of course a little kid doesn’t know that their parents have the same issue you know and they’re struggling with it. So it’s a lie of the enemy to keep us isolated from each other and I must say it works quite well. So that sort of shame uniquely and fatally flawed it’s about who I am as a person. We like to contrast that with guilt because people tend to use the two words synonymously but guilt is…
Sid: Oh, I thought we Jewish people had the corner on the market with guilt; have you ever heard of Jewish guilt? (Laughing)
Betsy: We have yes.
Chester: We have yes, we’ve ministered to it Sid and many people. Guilt is “I did something wrong” where shame is “I am wrong.” It’s an identity, so anyway being human God has designed for relationship first with Him and then with each other the fear has given place then. Like “What if people find out that I’m uniquely and fatally flawed, what if they find out I’m different from every body and I got all these problems?” And we’ve found that it doesn’t matter what the difference is even have red hair and everybody else has black or vice a verse it doesn’t make any difference what the difference is if there is a difference shame can be given a place. So the fear arises up it says “What if they find out I’ll lose all my relationships nobody will accept me?” And so we go into control and give it place to control our situation and when we start out on Monday you were talking about the walls I erected that was part of my control system to keep from being hurt more. You put walls up so we don’t have to interact with other people and they don’t see who we really are. And we paint a happy face on the outside of the wall and say “This is who I really am.” You know we go to church “How are you doing?” Oh, I’m fine, of course there’s no real time to get into it and we go into church but it’s like we wear a mask.
Sid: We’re actors on a stage.
Chester: Actors on a stage and control can take on lots of different forms, huge number of variety of forms but it’s all shame, all fear, all control. Like I knew a woman who would invite the family over but she would put name cards out and be very careful not to have anybody sit next to each other who could get into a fight, or who might be angry at each other. Because then she would be a failed hostess and not be protecting her family. So control can be what we call nice control, or you’re protecting other people from each other or it can be aggressive mean control. Or it can be passive and turn inward and keep a person from even engaging in life because the fear of doing something wrong or their inadequacies being exposed.
Sid: People that say “I have a fear of speaking in public.” They could have tremendous gifts of teaching by God but they’re so sabotaged they’ll never be able to walk into their gifting.
Chester: Yeah, amen. We say “We need to get healed so we can fulfill the destiny that God’s got before us.”
Sid: Now you talk a lot about ungodly beliefs, tell me a bit about Tim.
Chester: Okay Tim is in our chapter on ungodly beliefs and he was quite an interesting person, Betsy’s got a word on this.
Betsy: Well, this was a young man who we met when he had just had a cocaine overdose and he had been gay and was trying to….
Chester: He was gay.
Betsy: He had HIV he was HIV positive. A lot of ungodly beliefs about hating himself and that he was trapped and that he would never get free and that his life was just finished. And this is really an amazing story, as we just felt like the Lord wanted us to lay our hands on his shoulder and pray in the Holy Spirit for him. The Lord came and changed his identity and he opened his eyes and he began to weep and he said “For the first time in my life I feel like a man.” Now after that happened his ungodly beliefs about “I hate myself, I’m trapped, etc…
Chester: He had financial issues too.
Betsy: Financial issues.
Chester: He didn’t think God was going to take care of him.
Betsy: That God wouldn’t take care of him and those beliefs changed in that encounter and as we confronted him and said “Now you held all these beliefs.” He repented of those and then he just said “God what do you want me to believe?” And the Lord gave him the truth about himself, his life, and his circumstances. A very interesting thing about this man Tim, we went to see him when he was dying of AIDS and he was in a home for AIDS patients. He said to us “Because I know who Yeshua is I am going to declare who he is every day of my life that I have left.” And that was about twenty years ago, what happened was that little by little God just healed him and he’s still alive and we still hear from him. So it was just not only God as he aligned himself with God’s truth and changed his belief system. God’s physical healing took place in his life as well.
Sid: And that’s what I was just going to say, you’re finding people when they take care of these four areas which you call an Integrated Approach, the Sins of the Fathers, and the Curses, the Ungodly Beliefs, the Soul or Spirit Hurts, and the Demonic Oppression. When they take care of that they get physically healed, like tell me about the woman with a tumor that had a curse.
Betsy: Okay, this was a woman in her early 40′s who had two teenage children. She had a disease called Von Hippel-Lindau disease. She had tumors in her cerebellum and in her left eye. And she was losing her balance, she had had an aunt that had already died of this disease and it was fatal it was a generational disease that ran in her family. She was already thinking “What are my teenage children going to do without me because I’ll be dead in a few years.” And as she went through this when they broke the generational sins and curses she began to change, she began to feel different. Then when she got to the end she realized that she wasn’t feeling the same things that she had been feeling in her body. Where she had been leaning way over to one side now she was beginning to stand up straight and she went back to the doctor and the tumors were gone and in her eyes now the only thing is a tiny bit of scar tissue. And her mom who wasn’t a Christian sent her a Christmas, this was right before Christmas and her mom who wasn’t a Christian wrote her a card and said “You are a miracle this is just amazing.” And so we have seen when these areas are taken care of that God… it’s so much easier for the healing that God always wants to give us to actually for us to receive it.
Sid: Well listen 100′s of churches would not have been getting your materials and literally requiring their entire congregation; I mean they’re going to have a healthy congregation. And how can you believe God with all of your heart which is the only way to have God’s promises activated in your life if you got all these wounds.
Sid: We want everyone everywhere to understand that when Jesus said “Before His second coming it will be like the days of Noah” it talks about the Nephilim. These were the giants according to the Bible. Now why do you say LA Marzulli that that’s what Jesus was referring to as opposed when I hear about the days of Noah the first thing that comes into my mind is sexual sin and depravity of mankind?
LA: Well, the sexual sin… interesting He says Acts 2 to further elaborate on that passage where Jesus is talking it says “They were eating and drinking and giving in marriage.” And in order to really understand what that passage means again we go back to Genesis 6. The only people who are giving in marriage in Genesis 6 who are eating and drinking are the Nephilim, or are the falling angels; it says very specifically that the sons of God which is Bnei haElohim, which is the Hebrew term which means angelic beings. We know that because we can go to Job and see exactly same phrase being used. So there are angelic beings and in this case are the bad guys. And we know that the sons of god the fallen angels coming down and they take for whoever they want they choose wives and they marry them. That is the “they” that Jesus is referring to and this is why it’s not sexual depravity of man, it’s fallen angels cohabiting having sex with the woman of earth creating a hybrid creature then known as the Nephilim. And what he’s trying to do the bottom line here Sid, Satan is attempting to make man in his own image. He’s a counterfeiter. We are made in the image and likeness of God, Satan’s mission, and this by the way ties into the mark of the beast; Satan’s mission is to create man in his own image. And that’s what he’s been trying to do since Genesis 6.
Sid: Hmm, and of course Jesus is creating man in His image so you have the mirror counterfeit of it. Now I am fascinated by the fact that you have evidence in your brand new book “On the Trail of the Nephilim” that the first inhabitants in the United States were not Native American but were the descendants of the Nephilim these giants. Tell me your evidence.
LA: Oh, the evidence is very interesting; we believe that part of the Amorites who we know were Nephilim tribe. When Joshua and Caleb began to press in and conquer Israel, the promise land some of these giant tribes saw what was going on and left.
Sid: Now how do we know that they are a giant tribe?
LA: Well, because these are actually listed in scripture the Zazzumminian, and the Nephilim and the Rephaite, the Amorites.
Sid: Awe okay.
LA: The Pezerites all these tribes are listed in the Bible so we know that they were there; we also have a map basically like Agabishon one of the largest giants the last of the Rephaim, this guy was approximately between 13 and 15 feet. But we believe that the Amorite tribe in particular went through Northern Europe and settled back down in the Ohio Valley. And that there…
Sid: Of the United States your saying.
LA: And it took them awhile to do this, this is all a land journey but we have some other evidence which again links the Nephilim back into the promise land. We think and we believe and I’m not the only person to hold this theory; my colleague Judd Burton is an archaeologist and an anthropologist also believe that there was a diaspora, immigration if you will, an exodus from the Promise Land as Joshua and Caleb began to conquer those tribes. Some when North, some went across the Atlantic Ocean and we believe that there is strong very strong evidence of this because for instance in Ohio we see these earthen works; we see this mound complex known as the great Circle Mound.
Sid: Now when you say the word mound complex what does that mean.
LA: Thank you, these mounds first of all are enormous, 1250 in diameter. They are and the earthworks; some of the earth has been taken and literally from miles away; it’s constructed with incredible symmetry and the great circle mount in Ohio is a henge means that there’s a circular work it can be of stone and it can be of other instance it’s of dirt. But in the inside of the henge there’s a waterway so when the henge was in operation literally over 3000 years ago. It’s estimated between 3 and 4,000 years and this begs the question “How does a primitive culture without the use of the wheel, without the use of the wheel, create this type of mathematical perfectly symmetrical edifice on the face of the earth. And what’s even more interesting the complex from the circle mound used to extend to an area known as the Octagon Mound. You could fit the great pyramid inside of the Octagon Mound; that’s how enormous this thing is I have walked through it. And what’s really interesting Sid from the ground….
Sid: What is the purpose of these mounds by the way?
LA: Well, they are all ceremonial and ritualistic; what I believe this is…
Sid: So it’s more like a worship type thing?
LA: Well, they are, but there is evidence of human sacrifice at all these places
LA: These in my opinion are Nephilim architecture, it’s fallen angel architecture. I don’t think it’s got anything to do with Native American’s with all due respect. For instance in the octagon Mount; every 18.6 years the full moon comes up in the longest part of the year in June right over one particular part of the Octagon Mound. It’s extremely ceremonial but here’s the rug Sid you can only appreciate it from the air, when your down on the ground walking through the circle mound or into the octagon mound one has no idea really what they’re looking at. Circle mounds are easier because there is a huge gigantic circle and standing in the middle of it okay I’m in a circle, I can see that. But when you’re in the octagon Mount it is so enormous, and remember these sights were linked at one point in time. There is a housing development that separates them now; but in antiquity they were linked together. And the only way you can really view these are from the air. They are mathematically the way these things were created and done in my opinion this is not the work of Native American’s this is the work of something far older.
Sid: So it’s like that mystery of what we hear of the Stonehenge and everyone says “How was that built?”
LA: Hmm hmm.
Sid: Is that the same type of thing?
LA: Well, we’ll talk about this a little later perhaps but the short answer to that is yes. We believe that these megalithic structures that were on the earth and your talking Stonehenge and we can even talk about some of the henges found in the Americas. This is the same group of people; dare I say people, but the same entities. I believe this is fallen angle technology; I believe that the prince of the power of the air who we know is Satan is responsible. And he’s setting up a…
Sid: Why do you feel that Satan, or the prince of the power of the air, is responsible for these mounds?
LA: Because there is first of all there is evidence; good evidence of human sacrifice at all of these sites. And this goes back right back to the days of Nimrod where the whole idea of human sacrifice was originated and this is the essence of the fallen ones religious system.
Sid: But the science that these things; I have looked at your documentation the science that was available geometry that they have, they had to have all the type of technology that we have today. How old is this?
LA: Well, the site the circle mound and I’m being conservative here it’s about 3500 years ago.
Sid: So how could they have had all of this elaborate science 3500 years ago?
LA: That’s the point, it has the technology springs into existence and then vanishes.
Sid: And some of these stones are 120 tons and they had to move them like building blocks, like marshmallows to build with them. How in the world did they move these stones laying up to 120 tons?
LA: Yeah, your speaking of what we discovered in South America. The stone work in South America and specifically in Saksaywaman defies modern engineering techniques today. The material… the stone is called andesite it’s extremely hard and yet we see these polygonal shapes in the stones. The quarry is 40 to 60 miles away, you working at an elevation of 12,000 feet. The stones are polygonal shape and it’s not just the front these cuts go all the way back through the stone.
Sid: What do you feel these fallen angels that cohabited with the daughters of men that the Bible tells us about what was their goal besides creating a race if you will a hybrid race that’s evil. What was their goal?
LA: Well, the goal is… the end goal is to make man and the fallen ones image and to set up this control mechanism which we believe existed before the flood. And we see the fallen one after the flood attempting once again to create a grid system which empowers and is used to empower his plan basically. And this is why these…
Sid: Do you think that this is perhaps the wheat and the tares, and the tares are the sons of the evil one that are going to be the whole anti-Christ system?
LA: Well, eventually you know we’re kind of skipping around here but eventually it ties into the mark of the beast and the anti-Christ system absolutely, absolutely. There’s a link between antiquity and modernity; between what happened thousands of years ago and what is happening right now and it ties in eventually into the mark of the beast.
Sid: You have to tell my audience right now about all of those 1000′s of years ago they actually had electricity?
LA: Yeah, the stones that are created are used, let’s say in some of these monuments, all have piezoelectric power, or properties to them. They can conduct electrical current; again these stones are shaped with such precision that a human hair cannot go through them. And the size in which the stones lay on top of each other are polished to a high degree of luminosity. It’ just amazing to see the architecture and this architecture springs up out of nowhere and then vanishes.
Sid: And you know I’m jumping around but this is so phenomenal you have photographs of the skulls of these children of the Nephilim and they’re elongated, I’ve never seen a human skull like this; how could this not be big news in the scientific community. Oops were out of time.
Sid: I have a tool that has come into my hands that I’m so excited about it I can’t wait to get it in your hands it’s called “Mega Shift” it’s by James Rutz. The book has just come out and is packed with 40 years of experience of how to run a house congregation. I am not talking about a home group from a large church; I’m talking about a house congregation and I’m telling you there is going to be such an outpouring of God’s Spirit on planet earth that the only vehicle that will be able to function and especially there is a big divide between light and dark, and even in this country they start cracking down on institutional religious churches etc. They won’t be able to stop it just like in China. Oh, I pray that the same miracles that are going on in the house churches in China the same presence of God that are going on in the house churches in China, the same love that the brethren have one for another would take place in the United States of America. And I have a couple here that supernaturally God has sent them here and they didn’t come to do an interview I said I want to interview them it’s Tim and Katie Mather. They are spokesman for “Mega Shift Ministries” James Rutz’s book that we are making available is called “Mega Shift.” There are so many questions I have to ask you but you have done it. You were a traditional pastor you came from 16 generations of traditional pastors. Now that you have a house congregation for starters Tim what do people call you Bishop, because you probably started a lot of them, Pastor, well what do your people call you?
Tim: They call me Tim.
Sid: Is there a reason?
Tim: They call me Tim because position has no place in the Body of Christ. We are just all God’s children and so my mother named me Tim and so that’s what they call me.
Sid: Now you told me of your personal frustration and that’s the right word of being a pastor in a traditional model church. How do you feel now with the house congregation, all those restraints you were telling me about, all those things you lived for giving your message on Sunday, that was your purpose; how’s it changed?
Tim: The change is that we moved from literally institutionalism that is it was a form it was a box it was a structure into family living in the Body of Christ the way it ought to be. And so everything as we learned how to do this in the process is we began to look at a family, not a dysfunctional family which we’ve all come from, but a good powerful Biblical family model and then began to develop that
Sid: Wait a second, Katie you’re the wife of the pastor when he was in a traditional model, and now you’re the wife of Tim not the Pastor who is still functioning as the facilitative maybe. What is the difference in the man from what you see?
Tim: The difference in the man is more peace in his heart because now he’s actually doing what he’s called to do and it is very much like being a coach. He’s very much a coach; he’s very much a delegator and a teacher to teach others to do. It’s very much like and that’s why we just love grand-parenting because we don’t have to parent the grand children we can teach our children now how to raise grandchildren. And that’s why I just love the example of the family and even your introduction gives me goose bumps because that’s the real revelation that we’ve had that we’re no longer part of an institution where he’s got an institutional job where we’re really part of a family.
Sid: So Tim give me an idea of when do you normally meet, what day of the week?
Tim: Well, what we…there’s a myriad of ways to do it…
Sid: Now I don’t want to know I don’t want to know the myriad way I want to know what you do.
Tim: What we do is we meet when we want to meet.
Sid: Oy vey come on now give me a break – well how do you pay the mortgage on the building?
Tim: I work and I pay the mortgage on my house.
Sid: So what do you do with the offering?
Tim: We do what the Bible instructs us to do we give it to the poor, the needy, the widows and the fatherless, and help those. We help those, go on mission trips we send people out the itinerants that come through and minister to us, and minister the word of God and go other places.
Sid: What percentage of the people that attend your house congregation are workers as opposed to the best show in town spectators?
Tim: As Jim says in Mega Shift the traditional church the average is about 5% participation, 5% of the people that come on a Sunday morning actually participate and do something. In the house church it is 100% because 1st Corinthians 14:26 says “If anyone has a song, a hymn, anyone has a revelation and the rest of 1st Corinthians 14 talks about everybody participating. So the expectation is that people who come need to bring something to do. People will start singing a song, say listen I have a song can I share it? If we don’t know it we listen, if we do know it we sing along. People prophesy people exercise gifts; people pray for other people.
Sid: Wait a second though I see a very serious problem and that is if you have a generation of people that were raised to be spectators how do you shift the people? I know God is shifting the church, but how do you shift people with a mindset of I’m here to be entertained, TV has taught us that alone.
Tim: We really have been allowed to be very lazy so what we do is go through a whole transition process to teach them how to actually participate, it’s excruciating because people frankly don’t want to, too many don’t want to. Many people don’t think they have anything to say, anything to give, and then there are other people on the other side…
Sid: But but but you see we have been taught that only the professional have something to give only the ones that have been to Bible College and seminary and cemetery, seminary…
Sid: Had something to give.
Tim: Yeah and so the issue is that you have to mentor them, you have to coach them, you have to bring them along and teach them that it’s not only okay but it’s essential that they bring their piece of puzzle to the meeting.
Katie: Essentially it’s like family dysfunction, let’s say my grown children if they brought to me their children and I had to raise all of my 8 grandchildren that would be a dysfunctional family, I need to let my children raise their own children and learn how to run their own families and their own homes. I think that’s what’s been missing from structured churches that we’ve been taught that the pastor is the one that has to raise every one. And now they need to be equipped to raise their own families to go out and share the word and to bring people to the Lord and to not only evangelize but to also disciple those new babes in Christ themselves. And one important factor is that Christians now need to learn how to feed themselves rather than being completely spiritually dependent upon one person, a pastor, or the leadership of a church for their spiritual feeding. They actually need to grow themselves. Learn the Word, hear God’s for themselves and do the work of the ministry.
Sid: Where did we get the idea that it should be a professional one head of a church concept, where did this come from?
Tim: It began to develop right in the centuries just after the last apostles passed off the scene because people began to organize it, that’s the natural that’s the natural thinking pattern of men. Ignatius is culpable, he’s a historical figure, he’s culpable in this, but especially Constantine who organized the whole Roman Empire into Christianity he brought them all into Christianity all at one time. And at that point there were so many they simply used the pagan temples, the pagan worship, the pagan rituals, they just adopted that into the Christian form.
Sid: Is it true that every one of your meetings is different?
Tim: Yes and as a pastor that’s kind of frightening prospect sometimes.
Tim: Because we’re taught when we went to Bible college and seminary you’re taught to have it very organized and you’re not prepared if you’re doing it for the Lord you should be ready and prepared. But when I get my children and grandchildren together there is a level of chaos in our house when everybody’s running around and having relationship with one and other.
Sid: What do you do with the children in a house church by the way, do you ship them off to a room to watch something on TV with Muppets or something?
Tim: What we like to do is I like to have them right there, they participate. When we say open participation we mean open participation.
Sid: Do the children participate in your service?
Katie: Yes, we had many of our groups, some of our groups don’t have any children at all in them, but those that do they do allow them to participant. There are different ways for them to participant but some of them also have play groups where they do have just the children all by themselves and they do a teaching for them.
Sid: I remember when I first started in ministry I knew nothing, all I knew was Jesus was real, that’s all I knew. And we started a congregation I was one of a few Jewish believers myself got together and we started something called a Messianic Jewish Congregation. No one had ever even heard of such a concept but it just made sense to me and every week Jewish people were coming to the Lord and it was such excitement going on. Then we got organized and then we got… I was the quote pastor but I knew I didn’t know anything so I didn’t get in God’s way because I didn’t know what to do and God showed up. Is that what’s going on?