Sid: I’ve been looking forward to this interview for a while I have on the telephone the Senior Leader from Bethel Church Bill Johnson. Bill, there is something that marks you, and I believe there are 2 things that have done it. The first that has done it and sometimes it marks someone in a bad way, is how many generations is it 5 generations of Full Gospel Preachers and Pastors? (Chuckling)
Bill: Yeah, I’m a 5th generation Pastor and my children are all in ministry as well, so the 6th generation.
Sid: That is… what a wonderful heritage.
Sid: I mean that alone is miraculous to me. I mean I didn’t even know who Jesus was until I was almost 30 in Christian America of all places. But I want to take you back to a night that you had electricity go through your whole body when was that?
Bill: October of 1995.
Sid: And take me… give me a little bit of the history of that.
Bill: Well I had been really encouraged and inspired in the subject of revival in the outpouring of the Spirit. I had gone to Toronto and was touched there. I had come home we were just hungry for something. Fresh in the Lord, I brought in a friend named Dick Joyce that was ministering, he is a great prophet of God. Was ministering at that church and that evening when I was praying for people I told a friend of mine that God was going to touch him and it could be in the middle of the night at three in the morning. It could be at the middle of the day. When I got home it was real late at night got to sleep. I woke up suddenly at 3:00am exactly with that prophesy that had given to a friend of mine. That prophesy immediately in mind. I looked at the clock it was 3:00 exactly and I said, I said out loud “You set me up.” I felt like the Lord had me encourage somebody else with something that was actually my portion. And He just began to visit me in power, I don’t know any other way to describe it except that it was electricity going through my entire body.
Sid: Let me ask you something, you said you went to Toronto when the Revival hit. What you’re about to describe did you have the same thing happen to you at Toronto?
Bill: No, no I didn’t. I didn’t have anything noticeably happen to me in Toronto except I felt the presence of the Lord, I encountered His peace there was a lot of just deep heart stuff that was wonderful. My affections for Him were strong and vibrant and that sort of thing but no, there was no there was no experience.
Sid: Okay, let’s take you back to 3 in the morning, you prophesied something over a friend, it started happening to you, describe.
Bill: Well, it’s almost… I was actually embarrassed, I felt my face turn red and the reason I had no control of my limbs they shot out with electricity like 1000 volts of electricity I couldn’t control my arms. If I clenched my fists I would try to get control then my legs would get more violent.
Sid: Now that’s interesting Bill because I have had this happen to me but for me I’ve had control. What I do I yield to the Spirit of God doing this but I’ve always felt I could stop it if I wanted to but I never wanted to. Are you telling me you tried to stop?
Bill: Yeah, I didn’t know what was happening at first to be honest with you in the first few moments I didn’t know what was happening. I tried to regain control of my body because it’s not normal to have no control, I couldn’t control it. I would fight it not knowing that I was fighting the Lord and I would try to get control and I realized through…
Sid: Excuse me, was your wife there when this was happening?
Bill: She was sleeping and it was a miracle she stayed asleep because…
Sid: I think so (Laughing)
Bill: It really was. Interestingly a couple of days later it spread to her as well but it was just… it was violent in a sense encounter. And the Lord He paraded certain pictures in front of my mind, He reminded me of Mary the mother of Jesus, the mother of the illegitimate child. Reminded me of Jacob wrestling with an angel limp for the rest of his life. He reminded me of these scenes in scripture where an encounter changed everything. And while it’s highly favored from heaven’s perspective not always from earth’s perspective. And I felt embarrassed for what I was experiencing. And I then there’s a picture flash in front of me that saw me trying to teach in front of the church that I pastured realizing there’s not anybody in the room that’s going to believe that this is God. This is so embarrassing so unusual that I didn’t think that there was anybody that would think that it was the Lord. And then the next scene I saw myself standing in front of my favorite restaurant in town and I realized that the city is going to laugh at me as well. (Chuckling) And it was a decision, I had been praying for months, and I had literally been praying this day and night I would wake up in the middle of the night praying this “God I want more of you at any cost, I will pay any prince.” And so when He paraded these scenes in front of me it was basically asking me “Did you mean it when you said ‘At any price?’” Because the way it looked I either will be a laughing stock in front of the church or the city or I won’t be able to get out of bed the rest of my life I won’t be able to function as a result of this Devine touch. And I laid there weeping for probably 20 minutes and after about 20 minutes or so of tears streaming down on my pillow case I said “Yes, I’ll take it, I’ll take it I want more of You, you can do whatever you want with me you can make me look any way you want it doesn’t matter to me as long as I get You in the exchange.”
Sid: Now just out of curiosity you probably can’t answer this question but it’s crossed my mind. If you had said “No, I want my dignity do you think you would have lost what you have today?”
Bill: Yeah, I do I absolutely do. He doesn’t take you to moments of decisions that aren’t necessarily. I’m not saying He wouldn’t have used me, He wouldn’t have done something in and through my life but we often are the ones that set the limits.
Sid: Okay, did He say anything else to you at that moment?
Bill: That was it, He wanted me to lay down my dignity, my fear of man which you know if you’d ask anyone who knew me in that period of time all of my closest friends would have said “The fear of man was not an issue for me.”But the Lord saw beyond what everyone else could see that I could have been prone to making decisions based on what other people thought and I had to come to that place to go where He wanted to take me I had to be able to respond to Him, still maintain love, honor and respect for people but respond to Him without being crippled by the fear of man. And that’s what He was after.
Sid: Now out of curiosity why did He choose you?
Bill: Oh, I have no idea.
Sid: I know you told me but I thought I had to ask you any way it’s called “just His choice” and that’s all involved.
Bill: I am a 5th generation Pastor and is a wonderful thing I had a great upbringing but I’m the guy that took an F in school on oral exam in school because I didn’t want to speak aloud in front of people.
Bill: I’m the guy that read one book in my all until I was 18 years old I read it in 8th grade and I avoided reading, I hated study, I wasn’t good at any of the things that are necessary for what I’m doing. So when the Lord chose me He was doing what He often does He chooses because of weakness and that way He gets the credit for what He does. So I do believe that’s at the heart and soul of what He did.
Sid: Okay, at what time did the shaking if, you will, the electricity going through your body stop?
Bill: It was 6:38.
Sid: Okay at 6:39 did you just stay in bed and process or did you jump out of bed or did you tell your wife, what happened?
Bill: No I got up I didn’t tell anyone I didn’t tell anyone. The next night it started the moment I got in bed and the 3rd night it hit me and my wife together. By that time of course she knew what was going on but I didn’t tell anyone I was processing I couldn’t figure it out. It was a great mystery to me and now I have hind sight I could see that He was dealing with the fear of man, He was dealing with dignity these issues. At the time I was bewildered.
Sid: I’ll tell you what we’re running out of time right now but on tomorrow broadcast I want to find out the first time you lost your dignity after this event. But before that I have to believe one of the most significant things that God has taught you all of these years is how to host His presence, and this was a process in which He taught you how. I asked you before we went on the air why for your workbook and your 2 DVD’s and your book. Why did you call it “Hosting the Presence” why didn’t you call it “Welcoming the Presence” why hosting?
Bill: Well if you have a special guest come to your home you want to host them, you do extra things. You make sure that you have your nicest tableware you know you have the table cloth, you have the special meal you’re doing everything to honor the guest. And I realized that the Holy Spirit is a permanent resident in me but I like to live with that sense of honor and celebration of this one that I get to host, that I get to truly get to welcome Him; but I’m hosting Him and I’m turning the affection of my whole value system to just valuing and celebrating the fact that God is with me but He’s not just in me which I’m grateful for but He rests upon me. And when He rests upon me it changes everything around me.
Sid: How important is it for you to be aware of this and for those that are listening to be able to participate with the Holy Spirit and have His presence and know how His presence can increase in their life?
Bill: Oh, it’s extremely vital. You know any… we know that any of us that become obsessed with a problem we become fearful, we become anxious, we communicate that nonverbally. We carry the environment of fear and anxiety with us where ever we go. We can walk in a room and make everybody tense. Well turn, well make that you know turn that around and flip it around and you know that the person who lives conscious of the Holy Spirit actually carries a presence into a room and the atmosphere changes instantly.
Sid: Woops we’re out of time.
Sid: You know I was listening on the radio one day I’m driving home from the ministry and I was listening to Sean Hannity. And Sean had a guy on an author I’d never heard of him before his name was Joel Rosenberg and Joel says I’m an evangelical Christian and my father comes from an Orthodox Jewish background. And I thought hmm I’m going to really listen to this interview. Then Sean was saying things like “This fellow is prophetic he was talking about the terrorist attack before it occurred he had a best selling book out called “The Last Jihad.” And he had all of this prophetic stuff and Sean was raving about this guy so I figured I’d get him on the phone and let’s find out about Joel Rosenberg who wrote the book “The Last Jihad” and his latest book is titled “The Last Days.” Joel so I can get to know you just a little bit tell me about your father’s background.
Joel: Sure, well Sid thank you so much for having me on the air I’m glad you caught that interview and picked up that there was a story behind the story I appreciate that very much. My Dad was raised Orthodox Jewish in Brooklyn he comes from a family…his parents were children rather his grandparents had escaped from Russia in the first few years of the 1900’s. They lived in Minx at a time when Czar was whipping out town after town of Jews.
Sid: Interesting my heritage is from Minx too but go ahead.
Joel: What years did your family come over?
Sid: Well my grandfather came over in probably 1938 or something like that.
Joel: Well, this was around 1905 and 1906 and again God’s grace they got out by God’s grace they didn’t settle in Poland or Austria or Germany they were able to make it across the continent, got a boat to Ellis Island. And like any good Jewish family they set up shop in Brooklyn. And that’s where my Dad grew up in the Bedfordstizes area of Brooklyn. He was bit of a rebel so at 18 he decided to set off for California the promise land.
Joel: To become an architect and I think he went about as far away from his family as he could for a number of different reasons. I would say during that time he had really become an agnostic. The Orthodox Judaism his family practiced quite honestly was much more pharisaical and religious do and don’ts than it was spiritual and it disillusioned him. He eventually got a job as an architect in Syracuse, New York where my mother an agnostic Methodist was a doing graduate work at the university. They met and got married and they were really what I would call and maybe this era I would call seekers. They read the Bonifide Neata, the Koran, they read the Bible together, they visited churches and they were constantly talking about you know “There must be a God.” You know this was the 60’s and they were a little bit older and of course married so they weren’t really liked hippies or anything but they were definitely…they were lost but they were searching. And in 1973 they happened to visit a church where somebody really carefully and clearly communicated that Jesus is the Messiah. And they carefully communicated the way to salvation. My Mom heard that just instantly knew that’s what we’d been looking for and there was an altar call and she went forward just assuming that my Dad was a couple of steps behind her and he wasn’t.
Sid: It’s a real strong thing because if we don’t know anything about Judaism the one thing we know is what a Jew doesn’t do. A Jew doesn’t believe in Jesus. And most Gentiles don’t understand what a hard decision that is even for a Jewish person that’s turned off on religion.
Joel: That’s right and it was very…his mother my Dad’s mother when she was walking down the street if there was a church she would cross the street and walk on the other side. And she was deeply against Christianity.
Sid: My grandfather shared the story…well my father shared the story about my grandfather on the other side of the family on my mother’s side was Minx. My father’s side was Poland and my grandfather would walk by a church and spit at the church every time he would walk by it because he attributed the worst things that have happened to Jewish people was due to Christianity.
Joel: Yeah, it’s a hard legacy some mistakes, some serious mistakes of people in the name of Christianity and some of course really twisting Christianity to do evil. Either way yeah this is where my Dad was he was yeah, he was a searcher but he couldn’t quite believe that this is it.
Sid: I’m going to take you Joel to January of 1984 here you are a young man struggling with your own faith what do you believe, what don’t you believe. As a matter of fact you weren’t experiencing much joy being part of religious Christianity. And one evening in 1984 you were actually upset with God.
Joel: That’s right. Well my parents my Dad did 6 months later come to receive Christ and Jesus as the Messiah. So they started taking us to church and kind of began growing up in a church background but it wasn’t connecting with me in my heart. And I was getting to the point as a Junior in high school that I was not experiencing…I think I was mad at God because I said “God you promised in your Bible love, joy, hope and happiness, peace I’m not experiencing any of it so either I don’t get it or it’s not true.” And this was you know probably common adolescence but it was also I think God was really almost forcing me but He was really requiring me to wrestle with Him. And of course I learned later that he who wrestles with God. So I was really wrestling with it I was angry and I was slipping into a depression week, after week over the course of that school year. But one night I had just gone through my little lip me “God you’re not doing anything for me, what have You done for me lately? That type of thing and God stopped me dead in my tracks and in my heart it was as though He was speaking in an audible voice although I don’t think He was. But in my heart it was clear He said “Joel do you ever spend time reading my word?” Now there was a technical answer I could have given yes I had read the Bible but I knew what He was asking and the answer was “No.” And I said “No Lord I’m not doing that.” He said “Joel, do you ever spend time talking to me in prayer?” And again I had to say “Honestly no, I’m not doing that in a regular basis in a furiously way.” And He said “Why would you expect to experience My blessings if you don’t know Me?” End of the conversation it was like the frequency turned off. But I knew at that moment that God had been so merciful to me it just changed everything in that moment to just hear God ask me a rhetorical question but one that helped me understand that He was listening to me and that He had an answer for me.
Sid: There is nothing more exciting when anyone comes to that personal realization that God is real and personal and interested in me as an individual. I have heard God’s voice several times in my life. I wish that it would be every day but I have heard God’s voice and I have to tell you Joel there is nothing to compare to it. I wouldn’t take a billion dollar for being about to hear God’s voice and to get instruction.
Joel: It was a powerful moment for me and it developed a veraciousness in me for the word of God and prayer. I mean I just dove into the scriptures and just between that January of my Junior year and the fall that I went into my Senior year I went to the Olympics to share the gospel with some friends in Los Angeles the summer of ’84. I started a Bible study in evangelism group in my high school. Man that was really a controversial move and we shared our faith with just about everybody in that high school 1500 people. And people could see even though I had been brought up in the church now at this point in my life even though I had name Joel Rosenberg it was always a little confused by that.
Joel: But they could see that I had been just a little down and a little more oomph as a Junior. And I was just on fire for God my Senior year and people noticed that and they asked questions and God gave me answers and I just awe man it was just accelerating just abiding with God in His word it was just was extraordinary.
Sid: I have to ask you a question I know that you one day you ask God to help you write a book etcetera but in your wildest imagination did you think that you would write a book that would be Number 1 on Amazon.com, that for 11 weeks it would be on the New York Times best seller list that. I mean that you would be interviewed by Rush Limbaugh, by Sean Hannity.
Joel: By you! My wife and I when we first moved to Washington we used to listen to your show it just happened to be on at the exact moment we’d drive to work and we’d listen to those trumpets and that’s where we heard the word “Mishpochah” I don’t think I ever heard the word in Hebrew school so.
Joel: So yeah I mean no, I never imagined.
Sid: What’s the purpose of your books? Why are you really and truly…underline, underline why are you writing your books I mean Who’s Who, I mean the top people in America I mean are talking about this book but why did you write it?
Joel: To share the gospel, I mean I had always wanted to write novels and screen plays since I was a kid but when God finally gave me the time and said “Okay, this is the time to write” He had refined my heart to the point where I didn’t want to do it to be successful in some worldly sense. I wanted to write a story that drew people in out of adventure.
Sid: Let me tell you it not only draws people in I have to give people a warning I mean I got so excited when I was reading it I had to put it down a little bit to calm down. Let me read what Sean Hannity has to say about your first book “The Last Jihad.” Buckle up “The Last Jihad” is a high speed hard pounding edge of the seat, rollercoaster ride into the heart of darkness. It feels ripped from tomorrow’s headlines, this stuff could really (I could picture Sean saying this) this stuff could really happen.” I mean I can see how God is using this book because it’s one of the top secular books in America. But I have to tell you as good as your first book was you out did yourself in your next book “The Last Days”…
SID: In 2008, Glenda Jackson went to Heaven. What were you told? What did you see?
GLENDA: Two angels came down and took me into Heaven, and took me to the throne where Jesus and our Heavenly Father are sitting. And I couldn’t even look at him. I just bowed there. And all at once, just a spirit of weeping came upon me, and I saw these angels bringing in golden shields. And I asked the Lord, “What is this?” And he said, “This is shields of faith. My people are using them. My ministers aren’t. They’re going to the world for their needs to be met.” And he said, “They don’t want my faith anymore.” And he told me that faith means forsaking all I take Him.
SID: That’s an acronym. Forsaking him.
GLENDA: Yes. Forsaking all I take Him.
SID: He taught you how faith operates. Give us one nugget that you were taught from Heaven about faith.
GLENDA: Well he told me that to do the works you’ve got to believe. He said that, “I’m not up here praying. I’m the intercessor.” But he said, “I’m not praying for people to get saved. I’m not praying for people to get healed.” I began to weep and I said, “I thought that’s what you were all about.” And he said, “That’s up to you guys on Earth.” Well he didn’t say “guys”, he said “my people on Earth.” He said, “You’ve got to keep the shields of faith, you know, it’s spiritual, the shield.” But he said, “What did I tell Simon?” And I said, “You told Simon, Simon, Simon, Satan has desired to sift thee as weep.” And he said, “I prayed that your faith will not fail.” He said, “Go tell my people I’m up here praying over every one of my people’s faith that it will not fail.” And then I heard a voice behind me and I knew it was Paul. I didn’t even have to turn around. I knew his voice like if I had always known him. And you’ve got eyes in the back of your head in Heaven. And I saw him, and he was a small man. And he said, “Remember what I said.” He said, “Above all, take the shield of faith.” And that’s what we got to do.
SID: Glenda, there’s time slipping away. What has God shown you that will happen in the future?
GLENDA: He showed me that if Christians don’t start praying more than they ever have, even the churches, become the house of prayer, this next election.
SID: Presidential election.
GLENDA: Election is not going to take place. That it’s going to be suspended because evil is going to arise and some disasters are going to happen, and some things are going to be put in place, and the president is not going to be removed. He’s going to stay in. And these things are going to happen, and they’re going to be very bad if we don’t get a hold of God.
SID: What other things is he showing you?
GLENDA: He’s showing me that the church has got to get back to prayer. Prayer is the power he gave the church. And we got to get the faith of God. Paul said, “Do we have God faith or have we taught man’s wisdom faith?” It’s what He said in Corinthians. And He said, “I come and I showed in the demonstration of the power of God my faith, it’s God’s faith.” We got to get back that faith.
SID: Are we supposed to be hearing God at this point? How important is it for us to hear God?
GLENDA: We got to hear God or we’re going to be deceived. God is talking. In Revelation, He’s talked seven times for, “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the spirit is saying unto the church.” And John the Baptist, remember this, he had to be out in the wilderness. He had to learn the voice of God. Then he went in and they hadn’t heard the voice of God in about 2000 years. And what happened? When he was told by God, “When you see the man come in and the dove light on his head,” as soon as he saw that he said, “Behold the Lamb of God”, what happened? The heavens opened and God began to speak for the first time in about 2000 years. And what did Peter say in the Book of Acts? He said, “God is going to speak one more time.” Jesus spoke in Heaven and now he’s going to speak to the earth. And we’ve got to know his voice or we’re going to be deceived.
SID: Now what kind of times are coming, in your opinion?
GLENDA: Horrible times. Times, such as, the Bible said times such as never before. The earthquakes, all of that, are going to intensify. But we don’t have to be afraid. We’ve got to know God’s voice. We’re going to live supernaturally. We’re not going to live like the world lives. We’re going to live supernaturally, God showed me, like they did in the wilderness, like they did in Jesus’ day when he walked on the earth. We got to believe. If we can’t believe we’re not going to make it.
SID: Okay. You’ve heard about Heaven. You’ve heard about Hell. Now the question is, not just where will you be, and that’s the most important thing, but while you’re here there’s a purpose. You are here because God put you here, because God has a destiny in your life, because there really is meaning. You said that tonight that you don’t have meaning in your life. You’re here with a destiny. You’re here with meaning. I want you to make Jesus your Lord. It’s the simplest thing you ever did, but it’s a matter of your heart. I’m willing to surrender. Are you willing right now? Then say this prayer out loud, you at home, you in the studio audience, say this prayer with me. Dear God.
GLENDA: Dear God.
SID: I’m a sinner.
GLENDA: I’m a sinner.
SID: Against you.
GLENDA: Against you.
SID: And you alone have I sinned.
GLENDA: Have I sinned.
SID: And I’m so sorry.
GLENDA: And I’m so sorry.
SID: I believe the blood of Jesus.
GLENDA: I believe the blood of Jesus.
SID: Washes away my sins.
GLENDA: Washes away my sins.
SID: And I am clean.
GLENDA: And I am clean.
SID: And now that I am clean.
GLENDA: And now that I am clean.
SID: I ask Jesus to live inside of me.
GLENDA: Jesus to live inside of me.
SID: And be my Lord.
GLENDA: And be my Lord.
SID: I love you Lord.
GLENDA: I love you Lord.
SID: I am so glad I know you.
GLENDA: I’m so glad I know you.
SID: Fill me with your Holy Spirit.
GLENDA: Fill me with your Holy Spirit.
Sid: Well my guest Tommy Reid I’ve known for many years but there are a number of things that I’m finding out now that I never knew about you Tommy. For instance your parents were among the earliest Pentecostals in the eastern part of the United States. Your father came in dragging his feet because his father was a bar… owned a bar and your dad was an alcoholic, your Mom of course was a strong believer but your dad was an alcoholic and when you were 4 years of age what happened?
Tommy: When I was 4 years of age my parents my mother dragged my father to church to a Wesleyan Methodist Church. And my dad was an alcoholic he was dying of alcoholism; he had bleeding-ulcers doctors had given him up to die. He came to the altar instantly he was converted, I mean he became a believer that was probably the strongest believer in this part of the country everybody wanted his testimony. At the same time he was healed; at the same time he was delivered of alcoholism so he walked out completely healed, completely delivered of alcoholism. Didn’t even know it was religiously wrong to drink. So he went the next night to the bar and ordered his usual drinks and the Holy Spirit spoke to him and said “You’re going to serve me you can’t serve me in this room.” And my dad turned around and said Al I wanted wine, ring it up it’s my last drink and it was instantly. He came back to a home that was broken not between my mother and dad but because he was dying of alcoholism and started serving God it was a total miracle.
Sid: What was he healed from?
Tommy: He was healed from bleeding ulcers that were a result of the alcohol.
Sid: Hm. And this instant, I love these instant healings, instant deliverance. But then at 8 the devil tried to take you out; you developed polio.
Tommy: I developed polio. Well before that I actually had spinal-meningitis and my parents prayed over me and I was healed. But then I had this dramatic healing which was told in that award winning video, award winning story of my life on DVD. In that time I was unable to walk, laying on a bed the devil telling me I would never walk again. My mother telling me “By His stripes you are healed” and began tell me all the healing scriptures. One day I awakened and God said to me “Today is the day I’m going to heal you.” And at the instant I knew that was the day so I called my mother and said “Mom, would you call the pastor have him come and pray for me.” He couldn’t come he was in Buffalo making rounds in the hospitals and he couldn’t come. And I said to the Lord “Why did You tell me today the pastor can’t pray for me?” The Lord said to me he’s not here but I’m here and I’m going to heal you.” At that point I pointed my finger at the devil and I said “Devil you are not going to keep me in this bed any longer.” Pushed myself to my feet, took a step with my good leg and I realized that was the wrong thing to do I realized I should have started with my bad leg first so I’d have the good leg to stand on. But all of a sudden I realized my bad leg worked and I walked across the floor, ran up the stairs and I didn’t walk up the stairs I always run. And at 82 I still run upstairs; I ran up the stairs and got on my clothes, came back down looked at my mother and said “Mom I want a glass of milk.” And my mother had this pan of milk in her hands so shocked that her son could walk that she dropped the milk all over the floor. I said “What are you doing walking?” And I said “Mom I told you today Jesus said He’d heal me.” And she said “Well, your going to have to do one or two things either lap the milk off of the floor or go down to the store and buy it.” So I put my coat on and ran out the door of the house, ran two blocks to the store, ran back home and poured my own glass of milk. Instantly healed by the power of God. So I saw my first miracle in my own body.
Sid: I have to ask you you’re a young child, you’re 8 years old and your using phrases such as Jesus spoke to me. In what way did He speak to you? Was it audible, was it a thought, was it an impression?
Tommy: I think I’m not sure it was audible but to me it was so strong it was audible. To say it was audible I can’t say that but it was so strong in my heart. Many times when God speaks to me because I lived a life I believe that in the morning you go into the presence of God and you hear God’s voice. I believe that He not only talk to Him but He speaks to you; so all of my life I’ve had this innate ability to being able to hear His voice. And I heard His voice that day but I heard it many many times.
Sid: Tell me exactly what He said to you after you were looking for the pastor and the pastor couldn’t come.
Tommy: Exactly what He said to me “Tommy, Pastor is not here and I am here and I’m the one that’s going to heal you. And at that point all doubt was gone I knew that was the day.
Sid: But He also said, “Take me by the hand.”
Tommy: Yeah, well the other thing He said… and that’s kind of what I said to Him. I looked at that and when I couldn’t stand, when I got to the place in my life where I didn’t have the ability to take the next step I knew that I got to do something. So I reached out and this is what I thought in my mind “Jesus if I’m healed I’m going to take your hand and walk because I heard You voice and I’m going to take You hand and I’m going to live my life, the rest of my life.” At 8 years old I said “God I’m going to live the rest of my life holding Your hand and hearing Your voice.”
Sid: Well those are two important things for an 8 year old to learn. I didn’t even know God was real until I was 30. But then you started having visions of your whole future. How does an 8 year old… I mean I was in college and I didn’t know what I wanted to do.
Tommy: Well I think I was brought up by my mother who taught me that. I would kneel by her bed and she would describe the story of the crucifixion and it was so real she worked for Cornell University she was an Educator. And she had an ability to tell me what was in her heart and I began… she began to teach me to listen to God’s voice. So all of my life I would go to altar on Sunday night at a little Assembly of God’s Church and at that Assembly of God’s Church as I knelt at that altar I would begin to see things. I don’t know what happened to me but I would be lost in what I was seeing. And what I was seeing was this big church. Now our church was very small it had hand made benches and hand made altar rails and all worn out 8 x 10 carpets laid together and about 30 people. But what I was… the church I was in in my prayer life was in this big church. It was 100s and 100s of people and the people were singing and worshiping and raising their hands. And when I would awaken and this happened not just one Sunday but happened Sunday night after Sunday night. And I would say “Lord, where have I been?” And it was like I was in two churches the little church and the big church and the big church was more real than the little church. And the Lord would say to me in my spirit “That is the church that you’re going to build.” I lived in that vision the rest of my life I said all of my life that I would come back to Buffalo and build that church.
Sid: I’ll tell you what you had so many opportunities to not fulfill your destiny but having that foundation from your mother teaching how to hear God’s voice. And what about this dreaming of dreams explain that.
Tommy: Well, see I think God speaks in a language and the language of destiny I believe is the language of visions and dreams. I don’t mean just late night dreams you dream when you’re at sleep at night. I mean there is a world in which you live in the world of the Spirit. Jesus went every day to that world, He said “He did those things He saw the Father do, and He said those things He heard the Father say.” Jesus did not just study for a sermon; Jesus went where He heard God’s voice and saw God’s face and saw the future. So when He came down He saw blind Bartimaeus before He saw blind Bartimaeus. And my mother taught me to live in that world, that world where of the supernatural, that world where so many of us don’t know much about where God actually speaks to us and we hear Him and see the things of the Spirit.
Sid: Well Paul Crouch who founded TBN is now in heaven when you were a young kid and just recovered from polio you didn’t know how to play baseball or anything and he taught you how to throw. But he taught you even something more important than that what was it?
Tommy: Paul was a young man that came back from the mission field with his father and his father died on the way home. So he was basically fatherless, he had a wonderful mother. So my parents bought him most of his clothes and he was like my little brother, he was 8 and I was 10. No, I’m sorry he was 10 and I was 12. One day he said to me “Tommy let’s go play catch” and I kind of looked down and I said “Paul, I can’t catch the ball; what do you mean every boy can catch the ball.” What would happen was couldn’t coordinate my eyes with my hands and so I would see the ball in a different place. So Paul took me and he said you know got close to me where the ball wasn’t very far away and he’d say “Tommy would you just watch it; let your eyes follow it.” And he taught me to catch my first ball I never forget when I caught the first ball. And then he looks at me as we walked back from the field where we were catching ball or the place that we were playing catch. And then he looked at me and this is what he said to me “Tommy, (He was 10 years old) Tommy you can do anything you want to do if you will just believe.” And it changed my life; I will never forget that. The last thing he did for me was that to do the introduction on my video and he said in their “Tommy let’s you and I never quit dreaming.”
Sid: Hm. Now one of the things about your docudrama your DVD that we’re making available and it is that as you talk step by step of how the dream within you was more real than what was going on on the outside. I believe people will have the same encouragement that was given you when you were young. And also your brand new book “How to Live Out a Dream.” Well, I believe that it will help those that are listening right now discover the God dream that is within them. And then step by step how to see this dream implemented. You believe that every Bible believer has a God given destiny, a God given dream. It’s not for the special people, explain.
Tommy: Well I think the Bible teaches us in 6 verses in the New Testament the Bible says that our future or our name was written before the foundation of the world. When it says name it just doesn’t mean Tommy it means who Tommy is. My destiny was written by God before the world was created; your destiny was written everybody’s destiny was written before the world was created. Which mean our destiny is greater than nature itself, before there was a rock, before there was a river, before there was a sun, before there was a constellation God wrote our destiny. Which means every single one of us have a destiny. The language which God speaks to us about that destiny is the language of visions or dreams. And that’s what I began to see as a child that… and I believe that God has sent me in these years of my life after I built churches and after I did everything I’ve done in life it’s now my time to begin to go out across America and teach them how to hear God’s voice and dream God’s dreams. And that is much simpler than we can ever realize.
Sid: I’ll tell you something else that I was absolutely amazed at I didn’t know your whole connection with the pastor of the largest church in the world. Except you had a connection with him in Korea before it was such a large church. Tell me about that relationship you had with Dr. Cho.
Tommy: That was in 1962 we had been pastors of the large church in Manila built by Lester Sumerall.
Sid: Hey, did you know Lester by any chance?
Tommy: Oh yeah he was my first mentor. Lester Sumerall was the man that taught me most of what I know. He was the man who took me under his wing when I was a boy; not a boy but a young preacher. And because we had followed him as pastors of the church of Manila, Springfield, Missouri Assemblies of God thought we’d be good to help Dr. Cho get started so they sent us to Korea to work with him. Little did I know that he was pastor of the largest church in the world and so we worked with him the entire year watch the church grow from about 300 to over 3000 that year. And let me tell you an interesting prophecy about Dr. Cho. We were in Tanchon, Korea the whole city was almost destroyed. We were staying with Dr. Cho in a hotel there, we had had breakfast in the train station because it was the only restaurant left after the Korean war. And would in the morning my dad looked across the table one day, I remember he was passing just a few other people, grabbed Dr. Cho’s hand and looked at him straight in the eye and said “Sir, one day you will pastor the largest church in the history of the Christian Church.” And I will never forget him he often tells the story when I am with him “I remember that moment when God put in my heart that I would pastor the largest church in the world.”
Sid: And for those that are not familiar with that church what was their largest membership?
Tommy: I think it was over 800,000 at one time.
Sid: I mean how can you have a church with 800,000? I don’t know how you can have a church with 8000. (Laughing)
Tommy: He brought me back with my family for the 20th anniversary.
Sid: But he wanted you to be not a pastor under him of the largest church in the world he wanted you to be his co-pastor. How could you turn him down?
Tommy: I had to turn him down because I had that vision; you know I knew that this was going to be the largest church in growth. I had heard the prophecy from my father and I knew I watched him grow that church. I mean it was exploding but I knew that was not the vision, it didn’t matter how big it’d be. Now when I got back and things didn’t work right away I thought maybe I made a mistake.
Sid: Or you know what my favorite story about you, especially things are going to so bad you get a phone call from a pastor in a church in Hawaii gigantic church extremely prosperous, one of the nicest places in the world to live. I know about Buffalo it maybe a wonderful place but the weather, you can have it Tommy. How in the world did you turn that church down when they wanted you to be the pastor?
Tommy: Well actually we were here all ready at that point. and I had when I Pastured Manila I used to go back and forth you know commuting between America and the Philippians quite often. And we’d always top in Hawaii and preach at First Assembly. And it was a large church but then in those days you know we’re talking 1960’s… 1950’s I mean or late 1950’s. And we would stop there and I feel in love with Hawaii and I fell in love with that church and I fell in love with those people. But we came to Buffalo and I always had dreamed of going in the natural not God’s dream but my dream was to go to Hawaii God’s dream was Buffalo; my dream was Hawaii. And the phone rang and the voice of Eldon Vincent the Pastor of the other end of the phone said “Tommy would you talk to your wife and would she come with you and you’ve just been elected Pastor of the First Assembly.” And did I ever want to go I was struggling I was ready to give up and in the middle of all of that I get the “I’m elected to the Pastor of this church” but I knew it was not the church in my heart a different church that God put there.” It’s the church I put in my heart hadn’t been built yet we were just struggling. But I knew that there was something inside of me that was bigger than the world around me.
Sid: Well, I can’t wait to get your new book “How to Live Out of the Dream” and this DVD docudrama which is actually won some awards. But there is a supernatural quality about this docudrama that will cause you to discover your dream and to fulfill your dream. Everyone has a destiny before God, everyone has a dream and in fact in a portion of this brand new book is a workbook which will help you identify everything you have to understand to fulfill your dream….
Sid: We want everyone everywhere to be red hot for the Messiah and the truth of the matter is, there are many people that have the life of God inside of them, they are born again, they love God but they have certain bondages. That’s why I’m so looking forward to this week’s interview. I have special 5 fold teacher his name is Craig Hill; he’s founder of Family Foundations International. I have just heard so many good reports about his teachings over the years. I’ve interviewed him previously and I have to tell you the book that we’re offering “Bondage Broken Freedom from Compulsive Habits.” And the 3 Audio Cassettes called “Identifying Shame” every compulsive habit and most abuse is shame, its shame based. Craig tells you in this series what shame is, how it operates and better yet how to get rid of it. Let me read to you before I introduce you to Craig what he’s written on the back of the book.
“Why do I do what I don’t want to do?” Now you’ve read this Paul’s dealt with the in Romans and this is what he says. “Are there certain areas of our life over which you seem to have little or no control? Perhaps you’ve found your thoughts and your emotions are overpowering by such things as hatred, anger, lust, depression. Or you find yourself overcome by habits such as masturbation, drinking, drug abuse, cigarette smoking, or elicit sexual relationships. Maybe it’s compulsive overeating, dieting, exercising, shopping, spending, maybe lying, criticizing, gossiping or just talking too much. Even simple things like finger nail biting or excessive talking can be unpleasant binding compulsions. In this book Craig Hill gives you practical keys and that’s the word keys to break the bondage in your life and release you from prison of controlling habits. You will discover root causes of bondage and how to tear down strongholds in your life to release you into the peace and joy that God has intended for you to experience.”
You know Craig Hill we were talking before we went on the air about something like a wonderful thing for society is called a group such as Alcoholic Anonymous, Over Eater Anonymous, Drugs Anonymous. They have all of these self-help groups and many of them are even from a Christian viewpoint but it’s like one day at a time and although… praise God that I haven’t had to use such a thing I know people that it’s helped immensely but it seems as though all it does it allows them to be free one day at a day at a time. And they’re not really free they’re still an alcoholic, they’re still a drug addict they even say it by their confessions. It’s sort of like a maintenance program isn’t there something better? Isn’t there something more for us available for us today Craig?
Craig: You know Sid that is really true and we find that many many times in the church exactly what you’re talking about that people implement some of these same programs in the name of Jesus, in the name of Yeshua, they’re attempting to do those same things. But they’re attempting to those same things and what they really are I’ve come to call Sin Management Programs. And God has not called us to managing sin Jesus has said in His word “He whom the Son has set free is free in deed.” So what we’re really talking about is the fact that the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ has been shed so that people can actually be free on the inside.
Sid: That’s wonderful that you say what you say because it comes right out of the Bible and every Christian worth their salt knows exactly what you said, so how come we’re not a free people?
Craig: Yeah, I think that it’s an intense frustration. I know in pasturing people I found that intense frustration myself in that what we would find is that the same people would come week after week after week after week after week for prayer for the same thing. And we’d pray for them and we’d tell them that “You’re not trying hard enough, you’re not intense enough, you don’t want this badly enough, you need to try harder.”
Sid: You’re not desperate enough, you don’t pray enough, you don’t fast enough.
Craig: That’s it you need to pray more, you need to read the word more, you need to memorize the word more here’s 29 scriptures on this particular issue you need to memorize these, you need to mediate on these, you need to renew your mind to these and…
Sid: So people do that and they still aren’t free. They’re free to a degree it’s like a day to day type of thing but they’re really in their heart of hearts they’re not free. And so what do they do just give up?
Craig: And yeah, they’re really not free at all because they’re not dealing with what really is at the root, what’s deep at the inside in people’s hearts. And I think what happening Sid is that many many times the church even believes, and congregations believe the lie that somehow or another if I try hard enough through strong will self effort determination I can somehow overcome this bondage. These things that we just talked about in the beginning here hatred, anger, lust, depression, alcohol, drugs, fingernail biting really are external indicators that there is something deep on the inside that’s not being dealt with. There’s something deep deep on the inside that only the Lord Jesus Christ Himself can change.
Sid: But you know what I feel that most people are so… it’s so deep so hidden that they’re not even cognoscente of the fact that is deep there and they’re looking at the external problem and don’t know that deep root.
Craig: That’s exactly right and so those things we just mentioned really are indicators I call them indicators, what they are they’re like an oil light that comes on in your car. And when an oil light comes on in your car maybe it bothers you and you think “Well, that’s really annoying I don’t want that red light there” and so people design all kinds of ways to try to get rid of the oil light. The obviously point is the oil light is not the problem the oil light is just the indicator that there is a problem.
Sid: So overeating is not necessarily a new diet plan it’s finding out what the root cause is.
Craig: Right so to go on a diet is like trying to manage the oil light that’s why I laugh at a program like “An anger management program.” Well anger is only the oil light, it’s the indicator that there is a problem it’s not the problem so it would be like an oil light management program. Well, we don’t need to manage the oil light I mean we can manage it very simply get rid of the oil light just take a hammer bash it out; there no more problem. You carry on driving you’re going to find out that that was not the problem that was only the indicator. So these externals are indicators that there is something deep down on the inside that really is tormenting people that has not been dealt with and as that torment continues on the inside people do all kinds of things to try to make the torment go away. Some people eat, some people do drugs, some people look at pornography, some people gossip, some people tear their finger nails people do all kind of external things.
Sid: But you know the key thing that you just said Craig is “I don’t believe people are aware of the fact the torment is on the inside because it’s so deep, it’s so buried that they think it’s an external thing. If they understood the root cause then they could use the power of God to be free rather than these maintenance programs.
Craig: That’s exactly right and what ultimately happens and we see this happen all the time Sid in seminars that we do and ministry times we see the Lord Jesus Himself actually take people right to the root.
Sid: Can you give me one example that comes to mind?
Craig: I remember a man that was struggling with drugs, serious… actually he had been free from drugs for 12 years, he was one of those people that had a testimony when I met the Lord I was instantly freed from drugs. He’d been working in prisons and jails helping other people get free of drug addictions. And he said “The strange thing is this intense temptation to drugs has come back.” Now he was on staff at a church and he was afraid to admit it to anybody because he was afraid to get kicked out of the church and lose his job and not be able to minister anymore. But he did admit this during one of our seminar times, and I didn’t know what to do you know or where to go with it until I prayed a very simple prayer. I said “Lord Jesus would you just expose to him where is this coming from, where is this temptation to drugs coming from?” And we just waited all of a sudden this man burst into tears buried his face in his hands and wept and wept and wept. I wish I had been spiritual enough to know what was going on but I really didn’t so I just eventually said “Well, what’s happening?” And he said “I just remembered something that I haven’t remembered for years and years and years.” And I said “What’s that?” He said “I can see it right now as clearly as if it happened yesterday.” He said “When I was 6 years old he said “My older brother homosexually raped me.” And he said “My…
Sid: How could he have forgotten something so traumatic?
Craig: Yeah, you know the mind and emotions are a funny thing Sid because when something of intense pain happens to people sometimes the pain is so intense that it’s like the emotions go into shock like what happens when the body is traumatized and the body goes into shock it basically shuts down because the pain is so intense. That happens to the emotions sometimes. This man had not even remembered the experience and here it just came rushing back to him the Lord brought it back. And the amazing thing was then when he saw that experience and the Lord brought that to him. What God began to show him is that the pain of that experience was so intense to him it had been buried so deep that it… what he had done with that pain in teenage years was used drugs to overcome the pain of that. And of course not just from that one experience then many other experiences happened to him subsequently as a result of what had gotten on the inside. But there was an intense deep pain, deep emotional lie on the inside that said “You’re worthless, you have no value, you’ll never amount to anything, you’re just here to be used and abused by other people.” And intense pain of that had remained on the inside and he’d used drugs to comfort it. When he had met the Lord he had been delivered from the external of the drugs but the pain and the lie was still on the inside. And I believe what was going on the Lord at this time later in his life bringing that to the surface because He know longer wanted this man to just manage the pain He wanted to actually set him free. But every time the Lord began to bring the memory to the surface the pain was so intense that this intense temptation to drugs came up again. In other words what the…
Sid: You know Craig we’re out of time right now but you know some of you think “Well, I don’t have serious problem like a drug problem or an alcohol problem,” but guess what there are many many other problems that are buried that are causing you not to have joy and intimacy with God.
Sid: Recently I was watching TBN television. I saw my guest he was a guest on TBN and his name is George Otis, Jr. He is the Head of the Centennial Group in Lynwood, Washington I have him on the telephone. And one of the things that fascinated me is he was talking about cities that had transformations, not just a little revival in a church where people were being touched by God’s Spirit, but where the entire cites were being transformed. And he made the statement “This transformation you don’t see long term in the United States but yet you see it in other areas of the world.” And the thing that intrigued me was the question: Why don’t we see these transformations in the United States? George Otis, Jr. why don’t we?
George: Well, there 7 obstacles that we have identified to transforming revival that are particularly evident in western society and culture. It would probably take more time than we have to go through all of them but some of these things will not come as surprises to your listeners. One of the obstacles is theological misperceptions. We assume that revival is just something that comes as part of the arbitrary fiat of God. God decides at some time for reasons known only to Himself that He is going to visit a particular people or community.
Sid: As my wife’s grandmother used to say “God works in mysterious ways.”
George: Yeah and certainly we can’t fathom all of God’s reasoning so I’m certainly not suggesting that we can understand all of the mind of God. But when it comes to preparing the way of the Lord which is something we’re instructed to do in scripture repeatedly we’re not left to scratch our heads wondering how to get started because God has laid it out very very clearly for us in places like Isaiah 58; 2nd Chronicles 7 chapter 7 and in numerous other passages. There’s a collection of principals and instructions and revelations into the heart of God. And if we will respond to these things and will invite the Lord to come after we have done what He has told us to do preparatory wise then He will come into our community. So that’s one of the things is what is our role and what is God’s role. We’re also seeing problems with misplaced motives where people pray and ask God to come but only for the purpose of alleviating pressure and misery and solving various problems that they have. Now we should hasten to say that God is really interested in doing those kinds of things and in the cases we’ve documented around the world they’re absolutely stunning in example of the power of God fixing people’s broken environments and lives. But that’s not openly why we call upon the Lord to come. We call upon Him for Himself; we’re calling upon a lover and not a handyman. So that’s another thing that I think that has caused us to not see transforming revival in the west. Also, we have the infatuation and a preoccupation with programs. And we want to stage manage the Kings appearance and I think God has shown that He’s very resistant to that. We’re sure that God is going to come into our community He’s going to come in a certain way and at a certain time we try to create the right ambience for His arrival and roll out the red carpet and get the lighting just right and hire musicians. And at just the right moment horns are blasting He tends to make His entrance through an unlit emergency exist.
George: That’s how he entered our world in Bethlehem and that’s how He does that today. And it’s not just to get away from our pretense it’s also that entrance through that emergency exist is the perfect entrance into that community. And if we knew all that God knew about the community we would have been there to celebrate the perfect entrance. And then there’s lack of appetite or lack of hunger. We are willing to pray for revival or ask God to come, but only generally in time slots that have already been set aside for religious observance and that’s not enough. And one of the things that I noticed as a major difference between western believers and the believers in other countries that are actually seeing God come in full measure is that they have abandoned themselves to the process of preparing the way of the Lord. And we have stopped somewhere short of that. We would like Him to come but we would like Him to come at a convenient time and in a comfortable manner. So that’s why we’re still looking at the testimonies that are coming from other parts of the earth.
Sid: And you know a thoughts crossing my mind George, we have a phenomena that you’re aware of in the United States of probably the fastest moving growing churches are what are known as seeker sensitive. Isn’t this almost the opposite of hunger?
George: It is, and a lot of people don’t see it as that but that is exactly what it is. You know a good friend of mine said recently we’ve got a big problem in the western world right now were giving global church growing staffs down and that’s very true. We get absolutely all worked up over a single local church whose membership doubles at a given year and we think “Man can it get any better than this?” Well, the short answer is “Yes, it can get a lot better and in most of the other areas in the world it is.” And it’s been said “That life is filled with many tempting parking places and we in the western world seem to find all of them” and we luxuriate in our small victories and don’t realize that God has so much more in mind.
Sid: Well, as you say we luxuriate in our small victories at church forget a couple hundred. Let’s suppose a church grows to 3-4,000 we get all excited. But I see the statistics of what’s going on with Islam and they wouldn’t get excited if they had 2000 people in mosque. They want to take over an entire city.
George: Exactly right, exactly right. Sid I think that one of the things that we ought to remind ourselves of is that huge results are occurring in our world today and even in our society that are the handiwork of a relatively small group of people. And in the Islamic world you’ve got a revelry small group of real hard core fundamentalist operatives that are controlling the huge circumstances. And in our culture today the same thing is happening with the homosexual lobby. Which is a relatively small percentage of our population but these folks are incredibly persevering and gifted at changing the way that millions of people think about what is okay and what is not okay.
Sid: I have to believe they’re not just brilliant, although they’re hard workers. I have to believe both in Islam and homosexuality these lobbies have people in the invisible world that are helping them.
George: For sure there is no question about it. When you read in Ephesians chapter 6 about principalities and powers, when you’re talking about principalities you are talking about demonic powers in potentate have human spiriters working with them. And you find the King of Tyre operated in this role, King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon operated in this role and many others did in scripture and we do today where we find… Adolph Hitler was another co-conspirator with the demonic power.
Sid: So how are we going to get a human coconspirator with the powers of God to overcome because we know He that is within us is greater than him that’s in the world. So what are we believers waiting for?
George: Well, here’s… you’ve touched on something that I think is a very important point here. There are a number of people that we met with over the last several years who have seen these transformations videos and been inspired and said “We want to see that kind of fruit, those kind of results where we live in our back yard, how can we do it?” And they immediately tend to go out and try to do unity and they call a meeting of all of the believing people in the community to come together and they’ll talk about what they’re going to do and everybody’s excited the meetings full if for no other reason than professional courtesy everybody comes to an initial meeting. But when we hear from these people again it maybe 6 months or 9 months down the road and they’re bemoaning the fact that now in these planning meetings they called there’s a lot of empty chairs. I try to explain to them that God is not fixated or focused on the chairs that are empty He’s focused on the chairs that are filled He’s brought you there. But we get this idea in our head that if this key player, this pastor of this big church is not involved in our program then how are we going to get there? How are we going to see transforming revival take place in our community? And the good news is this, that God almost never works with the majority or with critical math.
Sid: That’s good news but we’re out of time right now.
Sid: My guest by way of telephone I’m speaking to him at his home right outside of Los Angeles, California is Hal Lindsey. He doesn’t need any other type of description because everyone listening has heard of him. Has either heard about his books or read his books and Hal why at this moment did you feel it imperative to put together the best teaching you could about end time events on this video that were offering “Evidence of the End-time?”
Hal: Well it really grew out of the program I do on TBN called “The International Intelligence Briefing.” I just became overwhelmed with how rapidly things were fitting into that exact predicted scenario of events that would come together before the return of Christ. I saw them fitting their expediently and so I just felt compelled to put something out that would put it all together and show people how close we really must be to the coming of Christ.
Sid: Now on yesterday’s broadcast where we ran out of time I stated that you made a public prediction that in this is back in ’91.
Sid: That you saw “The world of Islam would become the most dangerous system to world peace.” And I had the question posed you “How did you see it I mean anyone could see it today just pick up any newspaper but how did you see it in ’91?”
Hal: Well, when the Soviet Union disintegrating I was intensely restudying prophecy. And the Holy Spirit just really highlighted something that was there all the time and I should have seen it. And that is what an enormous role that the descendents of Ishmael and Esau were going to play in the final events of world history before Christ returns. In fact they would be the catalyst according to prophecy that would start the last war called “The War of Armageddon” And so as I looked I saw with the fall of the Shah in Iran and the tremendous changes that took place towards Islamic fundamentalism in Iran how that was triggering a great revival of Islamic fundamentalism. And then I just had to say that the Holy Spirit fit it together for me and prompted me to write an Intelligence Review called “Islam the World’s Greatest Threat.” And I wrote that in 1991 and I could just see that it was clear in prophesy that they were going to be a global threat and that it was coming rapidly.
Sid: Now Hal I have personally by studying your literature and videos etcetera I’ve seen where you have hit home runs based on your knowledge of scripture as to what’s going to happen. Out of curiosity have you ever had egg on your face, have you ever really missed it big time on prophesy?
Hal: Ah, there is one time when I wrote “The Late Great Planet Earth.” That was in 1969 where I said “If this is the time that I think it is and if a generation is 40 years and if it began with the founding of Israel Christ could come as early as 1988.” Now there was a lot of ifs and coulds and so forth and been there but that’s the closest I’ve come to really having egg on my face.
Sid: Now if you were to make that statement again and change the year what year would your put in there?
Hal: You know I wouldn’t put a year.
Sid: Oh! (Laughing)
Hal: I will say this you know Jesus said after He gave many prophesies and answers to his apostles’ question “What would be the time of His coming; what would be sign of His coming and the end of the age?” When He gave all of these predictions He stepped back and He gave an application, “Now learn the sign of the fig tree or learn the parable of the fig tree when the limbs first become tender and put forth leaves you know that summer is there.” So in a parable there’s one basic point and it’s very obvious what’s His point was in that parable that “When the first leaf appear on the fig tree you know that the general time of summer is there.” Then He applies that He says “Even so when you see all of these things” referring to the signs of prophecy about the end times when you see all of them not just a few but all of them coming up in concert He said “Recognize(and that is a command) I Am at the door. And then He applies it he says “Truly I say to you this generation (The one that sees all of the signs coming together) will not pass away until all of these things are fulfilled.” Well, I believe that we are that generation and that we are deep into that generation. So and then He said “But of the day and hour no one knows.” Well He commands us to know the general time but He says we cannot know the specific time, the day or the hour. And so I believe that we’re right in the middle of the general time and Christ could come at any minute.
Sid: Okay, you were right on the button in your prediction on Islam what does the Bible say will happen to the Arabs?
Hal: Well, the warnings are horrific and there will be some that will somehow come to true faith in the midst of this. But Ezekiel chapters 36 – 39 (which is really one message) predicts and warns all of the descendants of Ishmael and Esau that you’re generally called Edom it’s a collective word to describe all of them in the last days. It’s a warning to them that God is going to judge them severely because they usurped His land and that they sought to keep it away from His people when he predicts that they are going to come to that power.
Sid: Well, I do know that you have a dog now.
Hal: I’m sorry, he’s very excited.
Sid: Oh, it’s okay. I want you to give a little teaching right now from Psalm 83. Would you explain what some of these nations are that are mentioned here and what that says verse 3 to 7 Psalm 83?
Hal: Now this is a prophecy that’s really amazing because it does hit right on the issue of this thing. It says “They made shrewd plans against thy people and conspired together against thy treasured ones; they’ve said “Come and let us wipe them out as a nation that the name of Israel be remembered no more.” That could have been at the latest meeting in Jakar (Laughing) in the Southeast Asia where the Muslims got together it could be radio Damascus today. But it says in verse 5 “But they have conspired together with one mind against Thee do they make a covenant; the tents of Edom (which is the descendants of Esau) and the Ishmaelite (which all of these together are the Arabs) Moab and the Hagrites, Gebal and Ammon and Amalek these are…Philistia with the inhabitance of Tyre.” all of these today are the nations that surround the reborn State of Israel. Then He says “Assyria (which is Syria) also has joined with them, they have become a help to the children of Lot.” The children of Lot again were today the kingdom Jordan. So it talks about the fact that in the last days these would confederate together and their joint reason for confederating together is to destroy the people of the nation of Israel.
Sid: Tell me what your read is on Syria?
Hal: You know I have had this sense of something that’s coming there. That’s in Isaiah chapter 17 verse 1. Syria has been the greatest sponsor of terrorists to hit Israel of any other nation of the world. And you name it they’ve got the base for these terrorist organizations in Syria.
Sid: So the US should be as offended with Syria as Israel is!
Hal: Oh absolutely, and my concern is that with the latest movements going on there the United States has already accused Syria because the terrorists are coming across the Syrian border into Iraq to attack our troops. But Syria also has a number of missiles and they have an extensive biological chemical warfare array of weapons. If things get out of hand there and Syria launches a missile at Israel…
Sid: Which by the way I unfortunately see a scenario like that.
Hal: I do too because you know Israel hit North of Damascus and the planes hit and left before they even knew they were there and this really angered the Syrians. But if something like that happens again they may launch a weapon at Israel. And if they launch a weapon of mass destruction like chemical or biological warfare on them they’ll hit Damascus. In Isaiah chapter 17 verse 1 says that Damascus will cease from being a city, it will be obliterated.” Well Damascus is the longest, continuously inhabited city on earth and it’s never been destroyed.
Sid: So what will the European Union and the United Nations have to say if Israel in retaliation nukes Syria?
Hal: Oh my I mean it will be a… repercussions will be enormous but…
Sid: You know I asked you earlier what you see happening next?
Sid: That’s what I see happening next.
Hal: Yeah, because the destruction of Damascus is not related to the War of Armageddon, it seems to be an event that takes place in the end times but independently.
Sid: Alright Saudi Arabia our good friends, what’s your spin there?
Hal: You know I just saw one of the intelligence sites yesterday that I use all of the time Debka Debka File it’s called they’re usually right. They announced that Pakistan has signed an agreement with Saudi Arabia where they’re going to put nuclear tip missiles in Saudi Arabia.
Sid: Oh E Vey! Look hold that thought we’ll pick up right here on tomorrow’s broadcast.
Sid: My guest is Dr. James Richards I’m interviewing on his book “How to Stop the Pain.” I’ll tell you something if there’s ever been a book that every one of my listeners must “MUST read and MUST practice” it’s this one “How to Stop the Pain.” What he says is subtitle is “Pain is Evitable,” welcome to the human race. But suffering is optional and this will bring the walls down between you and your children, this will bring the walls down between you and your wife, or you and your husband. This will bring the walls down between you and other people. Now James you have to help me out because I’m still struggling with something here in the concepts we’re talking about. Okay I see what the Bible says about homosexuality.
Jim: Um, hm.
Sid: And I see what the Bible says about gossip, I see what the Bible says about New Age, or pornography, or abortion or sins along these lines. How do I proclaim these things and then meet people that are involved in these sins and not judge them?
Jim: Again its way easier than we have believed. You know when I meet a person that’s in pornography I know that he’s in pornography, I know that’s sin. But here’s what I don’t know I don’t know why he’s a pornographer. And unfortunately when we jump to judgment we start saying “This is why you’re a pornographer you’re an evil corrupt person.” The truth is this maybe somebody that was molested as a child you know, this may be somebody that was brought into this corrupt arena. We don’t know how they got there and usually when we go to judgment it’s usually a self-righteous judgment. For example, you know many times when somebody comes to me and they’re having a problem with immorality, say a young woman comes in for counseling and she is struggling with immorality you know the most common thing to do is say “Okay what the root of your problems is immorality.” Well then I’ve just assumed to know why she’s immoral, the truth is that may not be the root of her problem. As a matter of fact I found that the presenting problem is never the root problem.
Sid: That the symptom.
Jim: That’s just the symptom so what I may discover is when this girl was living at home that her father was molesting her and when he would molest her he would say he would tell her that he loved her. And so she develops this belief as a child that the only way that she can be loved is to be sexually involved. And so she gets older and she has shame and disgrace about all of this immorality yet she has a deep deep need to be loved. And so every time the need to be loved comes up the only association she has with love is that molestation. So she’s pursuing love but something because her beliefs about love drives her back into immorality. Now see if I go to her with a judgment and just assume that you’re immoral because you’re an immoral person, then all I’ve really done is… You know I declared my judgment and you know the next thing that follows judgment is the penalty I think they ought to get. So I treated her according to the penalty that my judgment says that she deserves. But the incredible thing I’ve found you know I work with prostitutes, I work with drug addicts, I work with homosexuals and here’s an incredible thing I’ve found. I can sit down and talk to somebody about their sin and if I don’t judge them if I acknowledge it yes this is sin and how I feel about this it’s amazing how quickly people will feel safe and begin to open up and get the help.
Sid: But just to say this is sin doesn’t the person take that as judgment?
Jim: No, they really don’t it’s an amazing thing you know Christians tend to have this really false idea. Number 1 they think that if we are kind to someone in sin we think that they will believe we are condoning their sin. And so out of that we think that we got to attack their sin. They know they’re in sin they know that what they’re doing is destructive. When I sit down with them in a loving way and let them know how much God loves them and cares about them, wants to help them. And that in fact that this thing that their involved in this thing that they’re doing is what’s bringing the pain in their life and I say you know “Talk to me about how you got here.” And they will lead me to the root of how they got here and then I get to help them. I get to introduce them to the Jesus that can solve that problem and heal that hurt.
Sid: Now that’s not the way it’s normally done from the pulpit.
Sid: Or done in churches by Christians. Why?
Jim: You know I believe that there’s a tendency I know in my own part I can’t speak for other people but I believe when I was a young preacher there was a tendency to really not believe that God’s Spirit could work in somebody and get them to where they needed to go. In other words I trusted my manipulation more than I trusted God’s Spirit.
Sid: In other words God need your help.
Jim: Yeah, I got to make this person feel guilty and you know I got to make sure they see their sins. As a matter of fact you know we’re taught you know when I first got born again you know I was taught you got to get a person lost before you can get them saved. Well, you know that’s really not true the good news isn’t you’re a dirty rotten scum and God is good enough to able to tolerate your rotten self. The good news is that Jesus has died for you and that God loves you and He accepts you and if you’ll come to Him just as you are if you’ll come to Him He’ll empower you and help you to come out of that lifestyle.
Sid: Jim you touched on something in a previous broadcast that’s very important to me. As I read the New Testament about healing the thing that jumps out at me about Jesus is His compassion.
Jim: Oh yeah.
Sid: And it was the way I see it my spin is if you will, it was His compassion that released the power of healing into these people and you said judgment will make you not have compassion for people speak to that.
Jim: You know many times people would come to me when even I was young in the ministry and I’d have somebody sitting before me and you know maybe they had gone through some kind of a pain and I’d look back at my life and I’d think okay you know I was living on the streets you know before I was 14 years old.
Jim: And you know I slept in cardboard boxes and I’ve stolen to eat and even as a young boy before I got saved prostituted myself literally just to have a roof over my head. And I’ve got somebody sitting there telling me about you know some great pain in their life and I passed this judgment…
Sid: And this pain is nothing compared to what you’ve gone through.
Jim: I passed this judgment about why this is hurting him so bad my judgment is “This is nothing the reason is anything to you is because you’re a big self centered baby.”
Jim: And I tell you I actually left the ministry for a year. I had a lot of physical problems happening I had a lot of things going on in my life at the time but the honest truth I left the ministry for a year was because I realized that I didn’t have compassion for people and I knew that if you don’t have compassion for people you’re not fit to be in the ministry.
Sid: So how did you change that?
Jim: Well number one when I backed out of the situation and I would start looking around here’s what I discovered I discovered that… You know I literally had a woman come to me when she was a child she didn’t get a Barbie Doll for Christmas. It affected her dramatically and she had great depression and she started questioning the love of her parents. You know I’m sitting there thinking “You know I had 2 Christmas’ that my brother and sister got gifts and I didn’t get anything not one thing.” And you know I’m sitting there thinking “Don’t tell me about not getting a Barbie Doll for Christmas.” But here’s what I came to realize it is not how monumental the harm that was done to you, it was the judgment you passed about it that determined how much pain it would bring into your life. You know when my stepfather stabbed me there was nothing to figure out he hated me, I hated him. He wanted me dead I actually tried to shoot him I pulled my gun on him and pulled the trigger and got a misfire or I might have been in prison today because I killed my stepfather. Well you know I didn’t pass a lot of judgment about that it was pretty open. As a matter of fact open rejection is easy to deal with but let’s say you grow up in a pretty normal family and you’re a young child and you’ve got your hopes really set on something and it doesn’t happen. You start saying “This is why my parents didn’t do this they don’t love me.” And the truth is that woman that didn’t get a Barbie Doll when she was 8, honestly based on the judgments that she passed could bring more pain in her life than me getting stabbed in my sleep.
Sid: Hm. So it’s not how bad the offense is.
Jim: That’s right.
Sid: It’s what you make out of it.
Jim: That’s exactly right. So that brought compassion back to me because I realized that people that had been through much less than I’d been through could actually be hurting much worse. And if I could free them from their judgments not just not just get them to forgive the people in their past but get them to release those people from their judgments. That that pain would no longer have any power their life.
Sid: You must talk to people that have been free as a result of your teaching and you know some people don’t know what it’s like to be free. But my understanding is that Jesus came to set up free not to just allow us to exist.
Jim: That’s right He didn’t come just to end sin He came to end the affects of sin. He came to end the affects of this painful dysfunctional life that we’ve had…
Sid: Do many people judge themselves?
Jim: Oh yes! As a matter-of-fact that’s the number one cause of physical sickness. As related to judgment self judgment is the number one cause of physical sickness.
Sid: Give me an example that might come to mind.
Jim: Okay for example I had a friend not too long ago die of cancer. He was a pastor who had committed immorality and all of the way to his deathbed he believed that his cancer was the judgment of God against his sin. Now when we form a judgment and we can talk about this on tomorrows program when we form a judgment everything in our body goes to work to make that judgment become real.
Sid: Physiologically this is true.
Jim: Yes every cell in your body because it has intelligence, every single cell in your body works to bring about what you believe to be true.
Sid: Oh, we’re out of time.
SID: Hello. Sid Roth here with Warren Marcus. Warren is a Jewish believer in the Messiah like myself and he’s senior producer here at It’s Supernatural. And Warren and I had the high privilege to witness before our very eyes what I consider is the greatest miracle in modern day Israel’s history. I mean, I still, Warren, I still am having difficulty believing what we saw. But you’re going to see footage on this. Let me tell you how it happened. I get a phone call one day from a friend of mine in Israel. He said, “Sid, I want to bless you and your wife. I want to pay all expenses. You can go to Israel. I’ll cover everything, hotel, foods, everything. Just a vacation.” And I said, “Well thank you, but I don’t want to take a vacation.” I know it sounds meshuga, crazy. But that’s what I said, I don’t want to take a vacation. But then I had the thought. I had recently been to Israel and we had a hugely successful evangelistic meeting with 250 unsaved Jewish people, of which the majority stood up and made professions of faith. So I called my friend that set up that meeting and I said, “I have an opportunity to come to Israel. Would you set up another meeting?” He says, “Oh of course.” I said, “About how many unsaved Jewish people do you think would come?” He said, 500. And I said “Sold.” Then I called my friend and the next thing I know my wife, myself and my producer, and a few other people are on a plane going to Israel. So we went to a city that most people haven’t heard of. It’s called Ashdod It’s actually a city that is 100 percent Jewish. And you may know that city Ashdod, because, Warren, what is it famous for? The rockets.
WARREN: The rockets and the missiles that were being sent right from Gaza, most of them hit into that area, Ashkelon and Ashdod. And but the miracles of it is that though those hundreds of rockets were being fired, they were missing the mark. They were being sent sideways. They only hit a few things, but it didn’t hurt anyone. And so that’s the amazing miracle. But in the midst of that is where we had our first meetings.
SID: And you know what I believe? I believe that the devil kind of knew something is up and he was trying to destroy that city before the great evangelism that happened there. Well we had a couple of meetings before the main meeting. And the first meeting that we had was about 150 unsaved Jewish people. And the instructions that I had were I could say anything I want, but I can’t give an altar call, an invitation. Now you have to know that this bothers me a lot. However, Warren, even though they gave me permission to say anything I wanted. What did you think?
WARREN: I thought it was incredible because you just, what you did was you told your testimony and you told them the prayer you prayed, and how you called out to Yeshua, Jesus, and you were able to repeat to them exactly, when you go home…
SID: I’ll tell you what, hold that thought. I want you to see it because I can’t even believe I had such chutzpah, that’s nerve. Let’s take a look at it.
SID: You could be a drug addict right now.
SID: And God will instantly set you free.
SID: No one else will set you free.
SID: No one else loves you like God.
SID: And if you’ve never heard it before…
SID: God loves you.
SID: But remember
SID: When you go to bed
SID: You say, Yeshua, let me hear, Yeshua
SID: Forgive me of my sins
SID: And come live inside of me. I make you my meshiach and Lord.
SID: Use your own words.
SID: But speak from your heart.
SID: That’s what God wants.
SID: Then it was a doubleheader. After that meeting, I mean, no time in between, we have another meeting. And the second meeting was an impartation meeting. And I’m going to tell you something, there’s something new going on in Israel. There was fire coming out of me. We had Ladonna Taylor play the violin and then I prayed for leaders in Israel. Take a look at this.
SID: Yeshua, Yeshua, Yeshua.
SID: There is something so special going on in Israel today. The orthodox Jews are crying out, Messiah is coming soon. This Rabbi Kadur, he’s one of the best-known traditional rabbis in modern day Israel’s history. Three hundred thousand people turned out to his funeral. And said before he died, “I’ve met the Messiah and I will have his name revealed one year after I die.” One year after he died passed, and on his computer it said, “Yeshua, Jesus is the Messiah.” Think. It’s outrageous. Warren, you were walking towards the Western Wall. You bumped into a rabbi for directions.
WARREN: Yeah, an orthodox rabbi, Sid. Now you have to understand, I told him I’m Jewish and I’m looking for the Western Wall, I want to pray there, and I don’t know where to find it. I don’t know how. He said, follow me. He was very nice. He’s been there 45 years teaching Torah, studying Torah. He said — You know, I said to him, “There’s problems, I see. I can’t go my normal route. There are Israelis solders standing there and they’re blocking the way.” And he says, “Oh, that’s going on.” He says, “It’s just prophecy.”
Rabbi: It’s only prophecy.
WARREN: He’s talking prophecy? So I’m thinking, what prophecy did he mean? So I said, “What prophecy are you talking about?”
Rabbi: Like in Joel, chapter 3, “All the nations of the world have turned against Israel, including America.”
WARREN: He puts his finger towards me. And I said, wow. And then I thought, what can I say to him next? I said, I wonder what he thinks about Messiah. So I said, “When do you think Messiah is going to come? What about Messiah? What do you believe about that?” And he goes…
Rabbi: [Hebrew] No one can know the hour or the day, but he is coming soon.
SID: Are you sure you weren’t talking to an angel?
WARREN: I thought it was, that’s what Christians used to say when they were…Messianic speculation. Here’s a rabbi, an orthodox rabbi, Sid, that said that. But here’s the other thing. I went into these different shops. I saw these paintings and I thought a Christian painted it. It was the Temple, and we have a picture of it. I took it with an I-Phone. It’s a temple coming down from Heaven in the Glory with Jewish people at the Western Wall pointing up like in amazement at what is happening. It wasn’t man building the temple. It was coming down. And I said, “Is this a Christian that’s doing this? I see these in several shops.” He says, “No, these are Jewish artists that are just painting these.”
SID: They’re prophetic. They’re painting this new Jerusalem coming down. You want to see something prophetic? When we come back, you are going to see something that’s never happened in modern day Israel’s history.
SID: The most terrifying words my guest Carlos heard in Heaven is that he was not ready. After thinking about this, pondering and taking time, why were you not ready?
CARLOS: So I come out of this encounter and I find myself back in my physical body. I’m on the floor weeping, totally distraught and disturbed by the encounter. And those words haunted me, Sid, for two hours. I lay there weeping, saying, haunted by those words, “No we’re not ready, no we’re not ready.” So I asked the Lord, “Well why am I not ready?” Was I talking about myself, the ministry, my family, the church in general? And after two hours I heard the Holy Spirit say this to me, he said, “Son, if I took you home right now, you are ready to meet me for eternity.” And he said this: “But in the condition that your heart is in right now, you are not ready for the next great move of the Holy Spirit.”
SID: But wait a second now. Did you see miracles in your congregation?
SID: Did you see people coming to know the Messiah?
SID: Were you growing?
SID: Did you have financial problems?
CARLOS: Not at all.
SID: And he wasn’t ready. And so here’s what the Lord began to reveal to my heart. He began to reveal to my heart that I had become a professional minister. In other words, I had become, grown so comfortable in my calling that the ministry was routine. I mean, you can get up behind a platform. And you know, my heart was still for the Lord. Don’t get me wrong. I still love the Lord. But in other words, my heart was no longer on the edge, a prophetic edge. And the Holy Spirit began to reveal to me, he said, “Son, you’ve left your first love.” He reminded me of the Church of Ephesus. Remember Revelation 2, where the Spirit of the Lord rebuked the church for leaving her first love. Although they had great ministry, they had great doctrine, great miracles, but they left their first love. And the Spirit of God began to reveal to me, “Son, because you left your first love, therefore, there’s a lack of humility.” And the lack of humility, which I believe is a major component that we have to have restored in the preachers of America, the preachers of the Western church, the preachers in the Body of Christ, so because the true spirit of humility is a pure dependence upon God where there is no glory for man.
SID: I like that.
CARLOS: There is no glory for the church, a specific local church. There is no glory for the ministry. But He gets all the glory. And the true spirit of humility is that what John the Baptist said: “I must decrease, but he must increase.” And so I really believe this is an area that the Spirit of God is honing in on so that the church can understand if we truly are humble, He will exalt this. And there’s many that are watching right now by television that the Holy Spirit, I saw earlier the Spirit of God almost like take His hand and turn a spigot and I saw fresh release of affections. I saw a fresh release of love. And those of you that are watching me now, just be sensitive and ask the Lord, say, “Lord, would you please open up the portal of my heart. Open up the portal of my soul,” because the Lord wants to download love and affection. He wants you to feel how much He feels about you. And the reason why many of us are stuck, we’re not progressive, we don’t feel the presence of the Lord or we’re not happy, I mean some of the saddest Christians are Christians who are bored, and they’re bored because fully realize how God feels about them. And so for those of you that are watching right now, in Jesus’ name, receive that fresh turning of the affections of God for your life even right now in Jesus’ name. And so I just felt from the Lord that the Spirit of God was asking me to focus on two things: Son, become more dependent on me, seek my face, and the number two, turn to your first love.
SID: You know what I’m reminded of and I’d like to have your reaction to this, our country is so wonderful. You don’t have to believe God to be physically healed. You got to the best doctors in the world. That’s what our medical system is. You have money to buy anything you want. You have media, you have Internet, you have TV, you have entertainment, you have sports. You’re busy, busy, busy, busy.
SID: I wrote a book many years ago from a song. The song was, “There Must Be Something More,” because I work, eat, sleep, and that’s the way it goes.
SID: Because I work, eat, sleep and that’s the way it goes. There must be something more. Carlos, you have started a 7-day a week, 24-hour prayer meeting in Orlando. A lot of people when they hear things like that, they say, I am so glad. You were called to pray. I’m not. I mean, I’ll pray my prayers in the morning for a couple of minutes, but that’s your thing, not my thing. What would you say to them?
CARLOS: I would say to them that the Bible is very, very clear. Every one of us are both kings and priests. And a king minsters on behalf of the King of all kings. But a priest ministers to the King, to the Priest of all priests. So I would say that we must return back to ministering faithfully at the altar.
SID: Like King David.
CARLOS: Like King David. The altar of prayer and the altar of worship. The altar of His presence, to be faithful at that. That’s what, you mentioned King David. He was the most successful Jewish king. Why? Because David understood, if I can have the Glory, if I can have the presence, if I can make sure that He’s being ministered to, day and night, night and day, I’m assured of the victory in my God’s presence. And that’s the missing link, I believe. We may have great churches, great ministers with the power and the Glory of God. I don’t knock that. I’m for that. But we need to see that resort to the individual believer, not just to a service, not just to a conference, not just to a seminar, not just to an outreach. We need to have every believer understand, wait a second, it’s not the pastor, it’s not just the evangelist. I’m called as an individual to return back to minister to the Lord. And that’s what I believe the Lord is saying. Return back to your first love. The greatest commandment is not a suggestion. It’s a commandment: Thou shalt the Lord thy God with all thy heart, mind, soul and strength. And when you look at the Bible, Genesis to Revelation, it’s about one thing, Sid. Ready? It’s about a wedding.
SID: A wedding.
CARLOS: It’s a wedding. In other words—
SID: To be candid with you, I know what he’s saying. But I have never really thought about it. Did you hear what he said, from Genesis to Revelation, it’s about a wedding. Explain.
CARLOS: History began in Genesis, Chapter 1, 2 and 3 with Adam and Eve. What’s that about? Man and woman becoming one. That’s a wedding. First miracle of Jesus of his ministry, where? John, Chapter 2 at the wedding of Cana in Galilee. And then one of the greatest apostles, if not the greatest apostle, was Paul, and he has his revelation of the mystery. Do you know about the mystery, the Jew and gentile becoming one. But he takes it further and the Lord reveals to him, this mystery he’s talking about is the heart of God, the plan of God having to pass for all of eternity, which is what? God and man becoming one. And he uses the picture of a husband and a wife. He says, “I speak to you a mystery when I’m speaking concerning Christ and the church.” And then we Revelation, Chapter 22 in Verse 17, one of the last statements the Spirit of God says about the End Times is this: “And the spirit and the bride, they come.” I believe the greatest identity that’s about to be released to the Body of Christ, we know what it is to be a child of God, we know what it is to be a son of God and many of us know what it is to be a friend of God. But the greatest revelation and the greatest identity, the most intimate relationship on Earth is that between a man and a woman, a husband and a wife. And the Spirit of God is releasing this revelation that Christ is the bridegroom and the church is the bride.
SID: You know, I’m reminded of another way. At this particular wedding, the very first miracle the Messiah of Israel demonstrated, he turned water into wine, the wedding at Cana. And this is what his mother Miriam said: “Whatever he says, do it.” That’s what Carlos is talking about. That’s what Carlos heard from Heaven. But you don’t do what he said if you’re not reading His Word. You don’t have a revelation of what he said, if you’re not praying, you don’t know anything if you don’t have intimacy with God. If there has ever been a time that you must have your own intimacy with God, someone can’t do it for you. You’ve been lied to. You must have your own intimacy with God. Believe the Messiah of Israel died for your sins. Believe that his blood, the Pasach blood, the Passover blood, washed your sins away. Believe that you are clean and he lives inside of you and is your Lord, and start doing whatever he says. Do it!