Sid: I want everyone everywhere to be red hot for the Messiah and that’s almost an understatement for my guests. I’m speaking to Heidi then shortly I’ll be speaking to her husband Rolland Baker. I caught up with them because the lines were so bad going to Mozambique, Africa that I caught up with them in Toronto where they’re ministering at the Toronto Airport Church. I have seen a video of Heidi and I had heard about what God is doing in the Baker’s lives. As a matter of fact Heidi I was telling Rolland this a little earlier, my first exposure to your family was a few years ago I got a hold of a book called “Visions Beyond the Veil.” I did not notice the date it was written. I read it, and I read about China, and orphan children having visions of heaven and being caught up and preaching on the streets of China, so many supernatural things. So I called my producer and I said “Get me that man I want to interview him and offer this book.” Then I found out he had gone to heaven many years ago and the author of that book, the man in China, was the grandfather of Rolland Baker. But Heidi I saw what the world would call outrageous things going on in your life on a video from the Toronto Airport Church. I found out that you have a PhD, not that means a whole lot, but it gives you a certain credibility, but what goes on when you minister… I mean I saw you in a video where you were preaching because you were flat on your face. Why someone with a PhD, why wouldn’t you at least stand and use that microphone?
Heidi: Well I was unable to stand up the kavod of God the weight of His glory just fell upon me and I was unable to stand up. So if I can’t stand up I preach with my face flat on the ground prostrate before the Mighty God.
Sid: Now you’re an American and at 16 you were trying to figure out what life was all about and you wondered into an Indian reservation in Mississippi. What happened?
Heidi: Well I was an American field scholar and was living on a reservation and was really was lonely and wanted God. I grew up wanting God and was in a very formal church and prayed a lot, never knew Him. Went to a revival meeting where 500 Indians were seated and myself. I walked in with my long blonde hair in a rain storm sopping wet, and heard the gospel for the first time. I was pulled from my seat by God, just pulled from my seat. I was the only that night that gave my life to Jesus and I met Him with such complete passion and devotion. I remember just crying over my sins and they said “Calm down, calm down it’s okay.” I said “No it’s not I’m a sinner!” and I just cried out and asked God for mercy. From that day I’ve been loving Him and serving Him.
Sid: Five months later while you were still 16 years of age you had an unusual vision, explain that.
Heidi: Well I was fasting and praying. I was in this little Pentecostal Holiness Church and they told me that it was really a wonderful thing to fast and pray and I needed to do that. So I just said “Okay I’ll do that I want more of God.” On the 5th day of the fast I was in church worshipping and suddenly I was frozen right where I was on my knees with my hands lifted up. I was unable to move and a bright white light covered me and I heard the audible voice of God, the only time in my whole life that I’ve heard the audible external voice of God. He called me to be a minister and a missionary to go to Africa, Asia, and England. I felt Jesus kiss my left hand and oil ran down my arm and I was completely ruined from that point on. I’ve never looked back, I’ve never dreamed of doing anything else and I just love Jesus more than life itself, I love Him more than anything. The next day I started preaching on the streets and I’ve never stopped.
Sid: Now this may be difficult but as best you can describe what the audible voice of God was like.
Heidi: It was clear, it was a clear deep voice. I felt like my heart was melting I felt so loved, so loved. As I heard the voice it went straight through me it felt like it not just hit my ears but it hit my entire being my whole body. It was like it captured me those are the only words I could use for it His voice captured me, captured my heart, my spirit, my soul, and my mind.
Sid: So did you immediately got to Africa?
Heidi: I wanted to but my parents both were very educated and they said “You must finish at least one degree.” So I ended up going to an Assembly’s of God University in California and finishing my BA. At the time met Rolland went lunch once and got married and went off to Indonesia on a one-way ticket and $20.
Sid: How supernatural was the fact that the 2 of you were attracted to each other?
Heidi: Very supernatural I think he was 12 years older and we weren’t interested in dating and we didn’t do any dating we just had the one lunch at a Chinese restaurant (laughing). God spoke to me again, to my heart in the slums of Mexico City and He told me I’d marry Rolland Baker and I did.
Sid: Now did God speak to Rolland also?
Heidi: He did. I didn’t tell Rolland what I had heard. So we started talking and he’d come to my school and we talked and prayed together. I knew even the night he asked me to marry him. We got to know each other after we were married.
Sid: Now I’m going to fast forward you to a very important, critical time in your life it was 1997 and you were at a church in Toronto, Canada called the Toronto Airport; where for many years they’ve had an outpouring of God’s Spirit that is really a tremendous watering hole for people that want to be refreshed. What were you doing there?
Heidi: I was just desperate for God. Rolland had went and was transformed by God. He was just so sweet and filled with the love of God I said “I have to get there.” The first time I went I had pneumonia checked myself out of 2 hospitals. Was just on the floor again, the weight, I literally felt the weight of God’s presence as this desperate hungry thirsty missionary, already been missionaries full-time 18 years. Just so tired, so weary and we just drug ourselves in the door and “God please, please do something! You know we love you but we’re tired.” At that time… the first time I was stuck to the floor I saw a vision of Jesus. I never seen Him so clearly just His eyes…
Sid: Excuse me when you say to “stuck to the floor” for those that aren’t familiar with that explain.
Heidi: I was unable to move. I was… I really… I asked God what it was and it was the kavod, it’s the weight of His glory. You know the word in Hebrew for kavod it’s weight. The glory of God is heavy and it fell upon me. I was unable to even move my little finger, unable to move.
Sid: How long?
Heidi: Well the first time it was for several days about 3 days…
Sid: But, but wait a second now did someone carry you out? 3 days is a long time.
Heidi: I was unable even to use the ladies room. I was carried everywhere and it took several people to carry me. I’m not a very big person but I was very very heavy (laughing). At times it would take 4 people to carry me.
Sid: What did God reveal to you that first time?
Heidi: Well the first time he showed me His eyes. I was just ruined, that’s the only word ruined.
Sid: Ruined for what?
Heidi: Ruined for anything but loving Him and giving all that I am, and all that I will be over to His love.
Sid: You know that’s a gift. People can say “I want that” but you can’t do that in the flesh.
Heidi: No you can’t manufacture it.
Sid: You know I’m reminded of what the Messiah said He was quoting Deuteronomy 6:4 and someone asked him what’s the major commandment and He said the Sh’ma Deuteronomy 6:4 “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your mind, all your soul,” and then the Messiah added to that and said “And you shall love your neighbor as yourself.” You can’t do that without God’s help.
Heidi: No and this vision incorporated both those things because I fell so in love with Him, even more than I ever knew I could be in love with Him as His eyes just pierced into my heart and I felt like I was melting on the floor. Then I saw His body His broken bloody beaten body and there were hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of children all around me and I began to scream “No! No! No! There are too many!” I couldn’t do it we already had 320 orphans and that was overwhelming enough. The Lord said “Feed them” and he took a piece of His side right out of His broken bloody side He took a piece of His flesh and He handed it to me. As He handed it to me that flesh turned into bread in my hands right before my eyes it turned into bread. He said “Give it to the children” and as I began to give the children the bread it multiplied in my hands and thousands of children ate, thousands. Then He took a cup and was a poor man’s cup it wasn’t jeweled like some of the pictures you see jeweled and beautiful gold cup it was a wooden cup, it was a poor man’s cup. He filled it with blood and water from His side and He handed it to me He said “Drink it” I knew it was a cup of bitterness and joy. He said “Drink it.” I drank that cup, He said “Give it to the children to drink.” As I gave that cup to the children it became drink, it became drink and they drank thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands. He said “I died that there would always be enough.” From that day we have taken every single blind child we’ve ever come across.
Sid: How many do you have that you take care of now?
Heidi: We have several thousand now that we take care of and…
Sid: And how many churches have you been responsible for starting?
Heidi: Over 3000 churches.
Sid: In how long a period of time?
Heidi: Well we had 90 churches in the summer of ’98 after this vision…
Sid: Oh my goodness we’re out of time.
SID: Remember the old story about the emperor’s new clothes? Do you remember that? Well Bert, your wife had a dream which is kind of on that order. Tell me about it.
BERT: Yeah, it was very significant at the time she had it and it still is today. In this dream, she was on this church property and the pastor was giving her a tour. They were having like a picnic-like fellowship on the grounds and the pastor was showing her around. And then they went into this large kitchen. He actually called it a cookhouse where they were preparing this food. And my wife knew what the food was because she had had some of this food, these rice dishes and these things that she had in Africa. And she told the pastor, she looked up at all this food that was being stored on all these shelves, and she said, “How come you’re not serving this food to the people?” And he said, “It’s strange food. They’re not used to it.” And so after that he took her back out on the church ground and there were all these weeds and tares that were growing up all over the property. They were crossing over on this little stick bridge, this little garden bridge and she noticed these weeds and tares were coming up under through the wood, and it was hard to even cross that bridge. And then all over the ground it was getting harder for people to walk. They were getting entangled in all these weeds and all these tares. And then my wife was very distressed after the dream and asked the Lord about it, and the Lord said, “These weeds and these tares represent festering sin, complacency and compromise that it’s gotten into the body of Christ because of certain truths and themes that are not being preached.
SID: Well here’s what I don’t get. We have more Bibles in the United States of America per square Christian than any country that ever lived. Now we have the Internet, and where you can get free copies of almost every version of the Bible right on your own Internet. How can we be missing these major themes?
BERT: In the West, we separate knowledge from application. The Bible is an eastern book and in the East, you know because you’re a Jew, they did not separate application and knowledge. You did not know something until you applied it. But here we, our supreme authority, has not been the Word of God. Jesus has not been the supreme authority in our lives and people are, you know, Paul prophesied. He spoke of it. In the last days, people are not going to endure sound doctrine. They’re not going to have ears to hear the truth. They’re going to keep to themselves teachers because they’re going to have itching ears. Paul said, “Some will depart from the faith giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of the devil.” We’re living in that time. We’re living in the last of the last days. And I’ve seen a major departure from biblical truths. I mean, I’m not talking about minor truths. I’m talking about major truths, major themes in the Bible.
SID: God told you, actually spoke to you that there is a diabolical plan so that major areas of the Bible are just not talked about today.
BERT: Yeah. He said there’s been a diabolical silence on holiness and because people just misunderstood.
SID: What is holiness?
BERT: Holiness, to me, the essence of it—what happened with Adam and Eve? When they first fell, the first thing they tried to do was what? Hide. To me, holiness does not hide. The essence of holiness is transparency. It’s an unveiled face. It’s when you’re open and honest before God. And then out of that will come a lifestyle of holy living. It’s not what you wear, how you dress, the outward blessings that you have. Holiness is the nature, it’s the character of God, it’s the outshining of God in a person, and it’s beautiful.
SID: You’ve researched the nuggets that people of old that had normal, according to the Bible, ministries, like Smith Wigglesworth. Give me a nugget from Heaven.
BERT: Well there’s many of them. Wigglesworth said, “If anything in this world fascinates you more than God then you don’t have what God wants you to have.” He said, “Anything that cools your affection for God is worldliness.”
SID: So how does someone that is a mixture, we’re humans, there’s degrees of mixture in every human, that’s going to a seeker sensitive, lukewarm church or one where there’s no power, how do they have a fire on themselves and a fire in their home?
BERT: Well we know today that God doesn’t dwell in a temple made with human hands. He dwells in each one of us. If a person is born again, especially if they’re also filled with the spirit, they are the Temple of God. God lives within them. And it’s being aware, developing a consciousness, an awareness of God’s presence 24/7 that you really learn to experience the presence of God. And there’s an infilling that’s not just a one-time infilling, we call the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues, but it is a stream that should never run dry. We should be being filled continually. The Bible says in Ephesians 5, “Do not be drunk with wine with excess, but be filled” or be drunk “with the spirit.” Talk about Smith Wigglesworth, he came to place at the end of his life when he said he could get drunk any time he wanted to on the Spirit of God. And when he was around sinners and people that were not informed or were ignorant of these things, he could just sober up like that. I tell you, what a way to live that a man got to that point where he could tap into the Spirit and get drunk any time he wanted to.
SID: Okay. How can we have it in our home, what he had?
BERT: It comes through praying in the Holy Ghost. It comes through spending time in the Word of God. What was it, those two disciples on the road to Emmaus, remember after the resurrection in Luke 24, what caused their hearts to burn? It said, “Did not our hearts burn when he spoke the Word of God to us, the Scripture to us by the way?” In other words, it was a revelation of the Word that caused their hearts to burn. Well we know that the Word of God is an all, God is an all-consuming fire, but the Word is a fire. So you know, these spiritual exercises being filled with the Holy Ghost, praying in the Spirit, meditating on the Word of God, just spending time with Jesus, we need to give ourselves to inspired utterances, not just in tongues, but we need to be speaking and singing to ourselves. The Bible says psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. That’s almost a lost art in the church today. We don’t do it.
SID: So many things are lost. You have to tell me about Father Nash. Most people never know that name, never know that name.
BERT: Father Nash was the prayer partner of Charles Finney. He went, wherever Charles Finney was sent to preach, he would go like a week or two before him, sometimes gather one or two other praying, very skillful, prayerful people, and they would enter into deep intercession together. I’m talking about groanings, and travail, and giving birth to what God wanted to do in those meetings. And they knew it was time to bring Finney, to summon Finney, they would look out the window when, in the time when many people were outside on the sidewalks, on the street. And when men started bowing down and kneeling on the ground in conviction they knew it was time to bring Finney.
SID: You know, he had an easy job. As a matter of fact, you told me that when Father Nash died, what happened to Finney?
BERT: Oh he stopped, he quit the ministry. He knew the power engine in his ministry, the power behind his ministry was Father Nash’s prayers.
SID: Okay. I want to find out what he believes, being a student of revivals and awakenings that we’ve never even seen in our generation to this degree. Is there hope for America? We’ll be right back.
SID: Hello. Sid Roth here. Welcome to my world where it’s naturally supernatural. How would you like to make right decisions every time? My guest says it’s simple. Would you like to learn? You know, my guest was an instructor at Rhema Bible College and I am told by friends that graduated the best course at Rhema was what she taught, “The Blood Covenant.” Give me one nugget, Karen.
KAREN: Well I think probably, you know, it’s an amazing covenant and if I had to give one it would probably be the fact that the blood of Jesus brought back for us everything that Adam lost. You know, the life is in the blood and it was the blood of Jesus that brought [it] back for us. And now we’re in the same position with God that Adam was because Jesus tore down the veil between man and God, eradicated our sin and let us just walk in to his throne room.
SID: You know, you like to teach the way Jesus taught. Give me a couple of things Jesus taught in reference to prayer.
KAREN: Well one of the things he prayed, of course, was the Prayer of Consecration. When Jesus faced the toughest decision of his life he had to pray, “Father, not my will, but your will be done.” So if we’re trying to make a decision we want to pray that way, too, Father, let your will be done in my life. But that’s not to be confused with the Prayer of Faith, which is something that, the Prayer of Faith changes things. And so we don’t pray if it be thy will concerning my healing, for example, because we know it’s God’s will to heal us.
SID: You found that when you pray the way Jesus taught to pray you get supernatural results. Tell me about that relative of yours with the awful condition in her hand.
KAREN: So I was just talking with this person and all of a sudden I noticed on her hands that she had this kind of rash that they looked all red. And she told me it was all over her body. She had never had anything like that happen before, but it was making her miserable. You know, she couldn’t sleep, she couldn’t, you know, rest, and it was itchy and everything. And I said, you don’t have to have that. So I took Jesus at his word, laid hands on her and when we parted ways she didn’t look any different. But she contacted me the next day and said, “Thank you, I’ve been healed all over my body. There’s no more rash.
SID: You know, there is a quote I have for you, Karen, “God has plans for you. He’s not keeping from you, but for you.”
KAREN: Isn’t that good news.
SID: It is.
SID: Explain it to me a little.
KAREN: Well you know, Jeremiah 29:11 says, “I know the plans I have for you, plans for good and not for evil that you can have hope and an expected end.” I love that verse. First of all it tells you, A, there is a plan, thank God, and B, somebody knows what it is, you know. Many of us are seeking around for God’s plan wondering his direction for our life. But he has a plan. Ephesians 2 says, “He had it before you were born. He created you for good works that you should walk in them.” And so when we seek him we can get into the plan and that’s how we follow it out and be in his perfect will for our lives.
SID: You say we can make decisions from God, which will be perfect decisions. We can know what he wants us to do every single time. And you say we have a helper.
KAREN: We have what I like to call a guide on the inside. The Holy Spirit is in there to lead and guide us, and help us every step of the way.
SID: You teach that we really can get God’s input in decisions every single time. What types of decisions, just the life-changing ones or little day-to-day?
KAREN: I’d say both. You know, obviously we need to hear for major things, you know, should I marry this person, should I move to that city, should I take this job, you know, big decisions, but then also tiny little ones. And really, we should practice with the everyday decisions. You know, Lord, should I turn left or right here, should I talk to this person or not. You know, and the Holy Spirit will give you promptings and say, go over there, do that. And if you practice listening to the Spirit, he’ll lead and guide you in those small things so that you’re ready to hear him in the big things, and you can make those right decisions.
SID: I know people whose very advice were dependent on hearing God and doing what he had to say. When we come back, I want to get more of these nuggets on how we can make right decisions every time and it’s simple. Be right back.
SID: Welcome. Welcome to my world where it’s naturally supernatural. My guest was hopelessly in debt. He had a young family. He was attacked in his health. Things were so desperate he was afraid to go outside of his house because people he owned money, they would approach him. God downloaded to him the mysteries of money. Since that point, he got out of debt. Since that point, he’s taught these mysteries to hundreds of thousands of people that have done the same thing. And by the way, I don’t know if I mentioned, he’s a millionaire.
SID: So Gary, you’re doing everything that you know right. You’re going to church.
SID: You’re a believer in God. You’re tithing.
SID: How did you get so in debt that you’re, really, between the two of us, were you really afraid to walk outside, really and truly?
GARY: Sid, I was in debt because I signed the debt papers, first off. I did it. But the reason I signed the debt papers wasn’t trying to destroy my life. I had needs that needed to be met. And so those began to mount. You know, you always think tomorrow will be better and then they weren’t better and you find yourself buried. And then I started having panic attacks. I was on anti-depressants. And so, yeah, I was, I lived in a realm of fear.
SID: Speaking of fear, it really hit the zenith, so to speak.
SID: When a lawyer called and what did he say and what did you do?
GARY: Well we had calls from everyone, every day, you know, we owed—
SID: That’s an awful way to live.
GARY: It’s torment. It’s torment. We owed credit cards. We had probably a dozen, almost a dozen cards that had been canceled, three finance company loans at 20 percent. We owed the IRS tens of thousands, our parents tens of thousands. We owed everything we had and everything was falling apart. We were in survival mode. And so it got to the place that we had exhausted every place to find money. You know, no one would loan us any more. My parents, you know, we tapped everything out. And so this attorney calls, which wasn’t unusual. But for this particular day he was going to file a lawsuit. And that day I realized with a kind of sudden realization, I’m done. There’s nothing left. I had nowhere to turn. Now I was a Christian. But so I ran upstairs to my bedroom, we had a little country house that we lived in. You know, everything was really falling apart. And I began to cry out to the Lord, and he spoke to me very quickly, and he said, Philippians 4:19, “My God shall supply all of your needs according to his riches,” you know, the riches we have in Christ Jesus. And I said, “Lord, I know that scripture, but I don’t have that. I don’t have that riches. I’m done. My needs aren’t being met.” And he told me, he said, “It’s because you’ve never allowed me to teach you how my Kingdom operates.” And that really struck me kind of strange because I was in church. I was going to Heaven. I loved God. I had no idea what he meant by what do you mean, how my Kingdom operates. I thought I was working them.
SID: Even your tithing, if you don’t know how the Kingdom operates you can tithe in a religious fashion and it won’t even work in your life, and people don’t understand that.
GARY: That’s right. I ran downstairs and grabbed my wife’s hand. I repented to her as her husband. I said, “I’m sorry we’re in this mess. It’s my fault.” I said, “But the Lord spoke to me and said that the answer, the reason is because I didn’t understand how his Kingdom operates.” We didn’t know what that meant, but we held hands right there and said, “Lord, teach us what you mean by your Kingdom. What does that mean?” And so we prayed right there and then He began to teach us.
SID: And you know what? This is how the devil operates. Just before you’re about ready to have a breakthrough, literally all hell comes against you. Your van burns.
GARY: Yes. All the vehicles we had were really, really old. We were just glad they started. We were just glad they started. Anyway, I used to drive this old van and it began to really smoke a lot of white smoke, you know, just really bad. And so I learned I’m not going to park this in front of my client’s house and ask him to invest half a million dollars or something, you know. So I would park it around the corner. And so this one particular day, this is only the day after I had this phone call from the attorney, I asked the Lord to show me how the Kingdom operates, I went to this client’s house and I parked around the corner. And so after the call he followed me to the van. He was just wanting to be kind and he came up to the van. And I kind of acted like I was fumbling around the van hoping he’d say goodbye and walk away. But he kind of stood there with his arms crossed watching me like, okay, to leave. I knew I was stuck. So I turned the van on. Of course, white smoke went everywhere. And he goes, “Shut it off! Shut it off!” You know, and he said, “I’m a mechanic.” He said, “Let me check it out.” So he opened the hood. He said, “You busted your head gasket. Drive it home and park it, and get it fixed.” Well that was easy for him to say. I had zero money. The attorney just called. We owed, 13, $1400. He had to have it in three days. We had nothing, but we still owed on the van. And on the way home I was thinking, Lord, I don’t know what to do about this van. I can’t sell it broken. I can’t buy a new van. I don’t know what to do. I said, I just kind of said out loud, “You know, it would be better if this thing just burned up. Let the insurance company pay it off.” I’m serious. That’s what I said out loud. Well about two minutes later, I noticed a bubble begin to form on the front hood. And I was driving to my office and by the time I got to my office this bubble had become about yea high and all of a sudden it just burst into flames and there were flames six foot off that hood, and I was totally in shock. And the insurance company totaled it. They gave me a check and I had enough money to overnight to that lawyer, the money. I paid some bills until I realized, great, fantastic deliverance, but now I have no car. So.
SID: Using the mysteries of money that God revealed to you, how [long] did it take you personally to get it?
GARY: God began to teach us how his Kingdom operated. He began to give us business ideas. We began to start businesses and we began to prosper. It was like a light switch. This is the key. Like a light switch, it was amazing. You come out of that dysfunction, that kind of emotional trauma every day and then you begin to prosper. I cannot tell you. It’s like taking a drink of water on a hot day. It was absolutely fabulous. Going to pay cash for your cars, building your dream home, paying cash for everything, starting these businesses, it took two and half years to pay everything off.
SID: You know, by the way, when he says everything, he’s not just talking his bills. I don’t know if you caught that or not.
SID: He pays cash for his home, cash for his car. I mean, the mysteries of money are so amazing. When we come back, God downloaded some very, very, this is why he has such a passion to teach you. I want him to explain some of these mysteries when we come back.
Sid: How can you be red hot for the Messiah unless you’re walking in divine health? Oh I take it back you can be red hot for the Messiah but how much more when you say “I was sick and now I’m whole I just had a miracle, and I have to tell everyone everywhere that God is the same yesterday, today and forever. What He’s done for me He’s going to do for you.” And that’s the exactly what my guest wants to tell everyone everywhere. Her name is Anita Hill and she works with Pastor Henry Wright and she’s a Pastor on staff at the Pleasant Valley Church in Thomaston, Georgia and she specialized in identifying the spiritual roots of specific diseases. Most fascinating study that I’ve ever heard of; she has found and Henry Wright has found that there are specific doors and once you’re found them you can be healed. And she should know in the book that we’re making available this week “A More Excellent Way.” Anita is mentioned in this book, because they list 17 diseases she had so much more, she had psychiatric diseases, schizophrenia, cationic episodes, multiple personalities 14 of them, she was anorexic she had bulimia, she had panic disorders, she had a rare kidney disease. She was legally blind in both eyes, her kidney’s totally failed, she had immune disorder; she had multiple chemical sensitivity. I just don’t want… all of her hair fell out, she could only eat beets. I mean a human shouldn’t have to live that way. And she was a nice atheist minding her own business trying to get healed with medicine, trying to get healed in the New Age and nothing could help her. She reached such despair she wanted to commit suicide and she found out from her Jewish roommate who had horrible diseases also that her roommate had accepted Jesus. She had been healed Anita had a glimmer of hope. She got herself healed and now she’s doing the same for others. Anita, I want you to take me through what occurs with one person that comes in to see you tells me what goes on with person and describe the person to start.
Anita: Okay I was thinking about several different things, that I’ve dealt with here but I want to take the case of a young girl who had scoliosis and she came with her father and mother. She was pretty devastated as a young girl with this imbalanced in her spine. The first thing we did was take them, the whole family that was here and there was a brother too, through a week long ministry session teaching them the word of God and dealing with general issues in their life. And we always start with bitterness and we dealt with this child around any bitterness issues she had towards anyone in her life, and any early traumas that might have been there that might have made her susceptible to disease because she also had some depressive things going on in her family life. We looked at occultism that was in the family line in the generation and dealt with any envy and jealousy which would be the rottenness of the bones rejection, unloving spirits and any addictive spirits and fear.
Sid: Excuse me what do you mean by an unloving spirit?
Anita: An unloving spirit you can tell when someone has an unloving spirit when they can’t believe God’s word about who they are in Him. He says “We’re fearfully and wonderfully made.” These people will talk about themselves as if they’re not worthy to even be in the world.
Sid: It’s deep rejection I imagine someone where the parents contemplated an abortion and somehow that rejection hit them right there in the womb.
Anita: Right it’s like we start dealing with even at conception, even at conception the parents probably didn’t want a child or whatever had already rejected a thought of a child but they had one. What happens when the child is in the womb that rejection comes through or maybe the mother has a lot of fear during that pregnancy or under a lot of stress? It gets into that spirit of that child and you have children born who have all kinds of problems. This child had scoliosis and after we had done the basis ministry I asked her father and her mother to repent to her for bringing all of the generational curses that had been there in the generations of that family. And they began to repent to her and her brothers and sisters that were there.
Sid: What happens if you don’t know all of the generational curses?
Anita: Well usually most people know if there’s anger in the family, they know their father was angry, they’re angry and they have perpetrated this anger against their children. Or they’re depressed all the time which is a spirit a spirit of depression, or there’s lying or there’s been spirit of lust pornography in the family. It’s amazing how transparent these families can be in exposing in what they know to be sin. And with the children they expose what they feel comfortable exposing and the child forgives them. And in the midst of that there’s such a breaking of boundaries between parents and children it’s one of the most beautiful things I have seen children forgiving their parents for their anger and their rage and so forth. Then after that I will lay hands on but if the parents are there and I don’t minister to children without the parents anyway, the parents lay their hands on the child too. And then we begin to ask God for His healing and I have in this one case the girl’s spine straightened totally.
Sid: How long did it take for her spine to straighten?
Anita: Oh, it was a matter of less than a minute.
Anita: We had done the ground work, we had done the ground work. We had dealt with that spirit of scoliosis and that imbalance that was in that spine coming from some propriate ception and the emotional cortex of the brain. That gets a little involved for this conversation. But then we spoke God’s creative miracles in to straighten that spine and that there be no neurological misfiring and where one muscle stiffens and the other remains normal and then there’s that pull. Then the normal part of the muscle becomes weak we spoke strength and balance in. And in the name of Jesus it was removed and pastor had that same experience God’s word is true.
Sid: Obviously you understand the roots of disease. What about addictions have you got some research on that?
Anita: Well, we know that in addictions that there’s a great need to be loved and that people go to others things because they haven’t been perfectly loved. And we have to unravel again the early traumas. We do something here called the Father’s Love, where people have never… 90% of the people that come here have never heard their father say they love them. And these are Christians and their coming out of Christian homes. And so at the very beginning of our classes here we teach on the Father’s Love. Because what happens is they separate themselves from Father God because their own father was so imperfect in their life and never loved them and that was to be their example of God’s love. So we try to speak to these people and let them know that God is not the same as their earthly father and they’re able to before they even get into the classes are beginning to accept God’s love for them. And how much better can they then accept God’s word and that’s what cuts a lot of people off from God’s word is because they haven’t had this relationship with a father who should have been the priest of that home.
Sid: Do you think it’s possible for someone to be so deceived that they don’t know that they’ve separated themselves from experiencing God’s love?
Anita: That’s very possible because a lot of times you know people just go to church, they go to church and you know hope for the best in their life and rely on the doctors. We don’t have any problem with medicine like you were saying before you need to keep yourself alive until you get yourself straight with God and to get His blessing. But separation from the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit from yourself and others will cause disease to come flooding into your life because all of the things that are so important for one’s life relationship, love, being accepted and so forth if those things are not there we’re in fear.
Sid: Anita we’re out of time.
Sid: My guest by way of telephone is Henry Wright. I have been on a search to understand why yes in my meetings a half a dozen people in this country, a couple 100 people at a meeting in other countries get healed. But why is it that everyone isn’t healed, especially believers, especially because God promises healing, especially because Jesus came to die for our sins? So one of the men that has as far as I’m concerned some of the best answers I’ve seen as to why people aren’t healed but even better than that is how they can get their healing. And I have to tell you I have pages and pages and pages of people that have been healed. I’ve talked to people first hand that have either read his book or been to his seminars that have been healed. And Henry the key that God showed you again we can’t get away from it is, it is a righteousness issue with believers that if they don’t deal with their sin areas it doesn’t matter how highly anointed the man or woman of God are. As a matter of fact they might even get healed but they won’t keep it. Would you say that that’s the bottom line of what God’s showing you?
Henry: The bottom line is that 80% of all disease is the byproduct of a lack of true spirituality in a person’s life.
Sid: Now let’s talk about something that is plaguing too many people, let’s talk about diabetes. Tell me about that.
Henry: Oh, you have Diabetes I and you have Diabetes II.
Sid: I don’t know the difference.
Henry: Well I’ll help you (Laughing). Diabetes I is an autoimmune disease in which the immune system is attacking the pancreatic tissue. Diabetes II is an anxiety disorder involving an incorrect amount of insulin that should be in the body. And that’s an anxiety disorder. Diabetes I… let’s talk about autoimmune just for a moment because I deal with autoimmune diseases there aren’t many that I don’t deal with. And let’s help you understand autoimmune. Autoimmune means the body is attacking the body.
Henry: Specifically the immune system instead of attacking cancers and cancer cells and viruses and bacteria and destroying them and they ignore them. And they’ve decided part of the body tissue is the real enemy of this person’s life and they go and begin to eat tissue. They begin to eat cells or they congregate producing what’s called nonbacterial inflammation. Any time you have the body attack attacking the body it’s in direct relationship to a person attacking themselves in how they feel about themselves with self-bitterness, self-rejection, guilt and shame and the body is responding. “So as a man thinketh in his heart so is he.” And so the body is responding to the spirituality. We don’t have a right to hate ourselves because God has accepted us. That’s the first principal in defeating the immune system, accepting who you are in the Father through Yeshua. That is first principal in defeating all autoimmune diseases.
Sid: Okay give me example.
Henry: Well an example is in diabetes we have found what causes the self-rejection in about 80% of all cases begins in childhood coming out of rejection from a father. That would be nurturing, love, or sometimes our fathers have put performance on us. In other words, our value to our daddy’s is how well we do and how well we’ve done and there’s no allowance made for weakness or failure. No allowance for any kind of weakness or failure.
Sid: And I can see how this would be generational because one father teaches that’s the action to the child that who then acts out what he’s been taught as his role model.
Sid: And somewhere somehow it’s got to break.
Henry: Well it does…
Sid: Now I see diabetes very strong in the African American community have you got a theory there?
Henry: Well not only is diabetes very strong but so is asthma which is the fear of abandonment.
Henry: In fact I did an article last year for a newspaper in Denver called “The Sins of the Black Man That Make Him Sick.” It’s a terrible subject but it’s very accurate in understanding that in certain cultures the father has not been there for the wife or for the children. Forty-two percent of every black family in America does not have a husband or a father at home. So we have many issues dealing with the diseases coming out of the failure of a father to nurture to be there in love. In fact 85 to 90% of every human being in America; you can walk into any church in America that you want to go to and I challenge every pastor do your own survey on Sunday morning ask this question: “How many of you growing up as children do not remember hearing your father say to you “I love you?” And I guarantee 85 to 90% of your audience will raise their hand if their honest. That’s the depth of disease right there.
Sid: Okay what should the first thing, what should they do if they say “That’s me?”
Henry: The first thing we must do is recognize that we do not feel loved because of our rejection from our earthly father. The antidote of this is this, God is our true Father. We were restored to our true Father through Yeshua’s obedience at the cross. Now God is the Father of all spirits and that is who I am I am a son of God by faith a spirit being. And I made my peace with my true Father. The beginning of all healing of all autoimmune diseases is reconciliation of God the Father and accepting yourself in Him once and for all. That releases the self-death, that releases the self-accusation and allows the immune system to stop attacking the body. And we found that happening in case after case when that person finally accepts God’s love and who they are in it.
Sid: Now let’s talk about an area that I want to get specific and that’s the whole cardiovascular heart attacks, but let’s get real basic. Something so many people have and they take medication for it it’s called high cholesterol.
Henry: Well high cholesterol…
Sid: Is that just because we’re eating wrong as many people tell us?
Henry: No actually you know if you have a predisposition to high cholesterol you probably need to watch what you eat but that’s not the cause for high cholesterol. High cholesterol is actually I don’t want to be technical but I have to. In individuals who get high… what’s it called congestive heart failure or high cholesterol in the interior lining of the cardiovascular system there are fissures that develop cracks if you will that in which the cholesterol with is necessary in proper amounts in our cardiovascular system begins to fall into it and form a plaque. That fissuring is rooted in self-rejection; anytime that you have a degeneration of the body that would be degenerative disc disease, that would be the degeneration of any body tissue you have self-rejection and self-bitterness without exception.
Sid: Okay, let’s assume that’s you what do you do about it?
Henry: First of all we don’t have a right to be bitter at ourselves because of the cross…
Sid: So when we’re talking about forgiveness there’s not only forgiveness of someone that has hurt you but there’s something about forgiveness for self-rejection.
Henry: Oh, absolutely we keep a record of wrongs against ourself it comes in the form of accusation, it comes in the form of shame, it comes in the form of grief, it comes in the form of guilt…
Sid: So could there be a religious self-rejection I don’t pray enough, I don’t read the Bible enough I’m not a good person.
Henry: Yes obviously that contributes to it because that’s again self-rejection. That could come from religious spirit, that could also come as a fear of God an ungodly fear of God. Now the fear of God is reverential respect. God does not want us to be afraid of Him He wants us to respect who He is. You get into a definition of fear. But many people devalue themselves frequently and compare themselves to others. But the Bible says this is Psalm 139 that “The hand of God is upon us we are fearfully and wonderfully made and the hand of God is upon us; and from the foundation of the world before our body parts were in continuous fashion from the dust of the earth God knew us.” We’re not an accident and in our generation by the Spirit of God He has plucked us up and made us sons and daughters and we must accept that once and for all. And when we don’t me negate God’s love in a form of rejection of God in ourselves that opens the door up to much disease and that’s a very big issue.
Sid: So what does someone do say “Ah I’ve come to grips I’ve done this ‘Oh God against You and You alone I’ve sinned, please forgive me in Jesus name’” and it’s finished?
Henry: Well pretty much it comes by revelation; I mean we’ve got to have some Rhema going here somewhere in our lives. If we open our hearts to truth and we take it into our hearts the Holy Spirit is there to confirm it and bare witness. But if we don’t recognize these pathways of which the enemy is taking us well how can we be free. And many people, most people I don’t care who they are don’t recognize the subtilty of Satan’s devices and disease at this level.
Sid: Very quick arthritis cause?
Sid: Cause doorway.
Henry: Is basically coming out of bitterness against others, unless it’s osteoarthritis or rheumatoid arthritis, which is bitterness against oneself. So simple arthritis is looking out having unforgiveness. When you find the other one it’s looking in itself bitterness.
Sid: How about something so ridiculous which I don’t understand is this duress syndrome; what’s the cause?
Henry: Our success with God working with us for the past 5 years with duress syndrome has 100% success worldwide.
Sid: Oh, we’re out of time you’re going to have to read his book.
Sid: You know something that is bothering me no end Mishpocha, and I’m sure many of you are bother by it we’re losing a generation of children. I mean I’ve never seen such deterioration so rapidly before our very eyes. I have on the telephone Dr. Tedd Tripp he’s pastor of Grace Fellowship Church in Hazelton, Pennsylvania and he’s got long list of degrees. But the reason I have him on the show is that he wrote a book called “Shepherding a Child’s Heart.” And what age range would you say this is for Tedd?
Tedd: Well the book is written for parents at any age and those periods where parents are nurturing children it’s not really about the adult children but it’s for parents that are in the process of nurturing children that are pre-schoolers, school age kids, teenagers, all of the way through where they leave home.
Sid: And I’ll tell you some that really speaks reams to me and that is teenagers when parents start practicing these principals in your book they actually like being home. I don’t know too many teenagers that want to be with the old folks, their parents.
Tedd: Well I think that I think that that’s a matter of vision and we can perhaps talk about that even yet this week. But there’s a matter of having a good visions for engaging our teenagers and I think that there’s some exciting things to think about.
Sid: But comment on this statement I made, we, and I’m talking about the church we are losing a generation of young people why?
Tedd: Well I think that there are a lot of reasons and one is certainly parents are very busy and I think that because they are very busy and I think that because they’re very busy parents are failing to do the job of nurturing their children. And the whole task of formative instruction really doing what Deuteronomy 6 calls parents to do; instructing their kids in the ways of the Lord, parents are not doing that.
Sid: Wait a second a lot of parents are sending their children to Christian school they have them in Sunday School every Sunday but it’s still not working why?
Tedd: All of those things are supplementary I think to the task of the parent to be shepherding their children at home and to be opening the word of God with their children and teaching the children God’s ways in the family. And that’s not taking place in many many churches. I talk in seminars about family worship and the importance of family worship and people again and again come up to me and say “What exactly is family worship I don’t have any idea about going about doing that.” And I think that Deuteronomy 6 says “These things shall be upon your heart and you shall impress them upon your children.” There’s a whole paradigm there for providing for what I call “Formative instruction” where you’re giving your children a biblical culture a biblical way of thinking that is rooted in the scriptures…
Sid: And you know excuse me for interrupting you but I’m thinking about a church service that I was in the other night and I was watching the young people and I’ve seen these young people in church since they were little babies and they’re not paying one bit of attention they’re coloring they’re drawing they’re not even involved they have they’ve literally learned how to detach themself from the service. And I said “It’s almost until those parents realize what’s happening to those children?”
Tedd: Yeah you keep raising these issues and that’s another whole saw of mind I think that one of the things that we’ve done in the church and this maybe controversial in some circles but I’ll put it out there and people can agree or disagree. But I think one of the things I think we’ve done is we created this junior church phenomenal where we absent all the children from the service and they go and they have their little entertaining worship light service that is focused for them…
Sid: And in most cases it’s a shade better than secular just a shade.
Tedd: Yes and I’m persuaded that what we need to be doing is we need to be training children to worship with their families in church and pastors need to be recognizing the fact that as I speak I have children in my audience and I want to speak in ways that the children can understand as well as the adults I want to bring in illustrations and application where I’m speaking to children and drawing the children into the service. I want to use illustration that will engage children so that I’m cooperating with parents that are endeavoring to teach children this is for you too and they’re trying to train their children and I want to cooperate that training process by speaking in a way that engages children and draws children in.
Sid: You know I’m speaking by theory but I’m speaking though my heart right now and knowing the history of the early church there’s something so significant about coming from a Jewish background the Sabbath, or the Shabbat, at home with the family together and praying together and talking together and eating together and we seem to have lost that.
Tedd: Yes we’ve lost that sense of a culture that Christianity is about a culture it is a…it’s about helping kids to understand the whole world through the lens of the word of God. I think that the Shabbat practice of family really preparing themselves on the…at sundown on Friday for the Sabbath day and the whole notion that we’re setting this day aside we’re going to call this day a delight we’re going to focus our thought and our whole focus for this whole day for the worship and the glory of God and enjoying what God has given us freely to enjoy. I think that whole notion has been lost there’s no sense of Sabbath in the church at large at all today.
Sid: So tell me you hit a nerve when you said “Most families don’t know how to worship together.” So how do we do it?
Tedd: Well I think that Deuteronomy 6 provides the excellent paradigm it’s very interesting what the vision of Deuteronomy 6 is. God says to them “I’m give to them these commands so that you and your children and your children’s children may walk in the ways of the Lord.” There’s this 3 generation vision.
Tedd: That’s right.
Sid: It’s a promise!
Tedd: That’s right and you know what I tell parents when I teach in a seminar is when your training your child when you’re addressing the heart of this child this heart whose heart has strayed into some false path and you’re addressing his heart and you’re drawing along side of this child you’re not just thinking about how to survive this moment you’re thinking kingdom of God you’re thinking “Where will my grandchildren be 50 years from now?” And so my training of my child has this long range vision that not just for my child but even for his children as well I’m training. And so Deuteronomy 6 says that we have this 3 generation vision and then it says “These things shall be upon your heart and you shall impress them on your children.” Let’s face if children…if parents are not dazzled by God themselves if parents are not overwhelmed with the glory and the goodness of God the greatness of the salvation that has been given to us in Yeshua; if they are not dazzled by those things and overwhelmed with the glory and the goodness and the greatness of God then they’re not going to transmit that to their children. You can’t give away what you don’t have.
Sid: So tell me about how we worship.
Tedd: And I…so I think that we gather our family together every day and we worship God together as a family. Our practice when our children were young I read the Proverbs to my children were at the breakfast table every morning.
Sid: Why Proverbs?
Tedd: Because the Proverbs are filled with God’s wisdom there’s 31 chapters and a chapter for every day of the month they confront all the issues of life everything from sexual or moral purity to honesty to integrity to diligence to stealing to companionship to what it means to a man what it means to be a woman all of those topics of daily living are addressed in the proverbs. And I would read the Proverbs every day while the kids were eating their cornflakes. By the time…
Sid: But wait a second what if they’re real young I mean what age were you reading proverbs?
Tedd: I was reading the Proverbs to them you know; I was reading the Proverbs in the presence of a toddler in a high chair when I had children that were 4 and 6.
Sid: It penetrates the spirit even though if the mind may not comprehend.
Tedd: It does and what you do you know one of my sons said something to me very wise recently he said “I want to give my children large truths to grow into not like airy truths to outgrow but large truths to grow into; I want to give them a vision of the greatness, the grandness of God that is as toddlers they can’t even possible fully grasp but they will grow into the understanding of what those things are.”
Sid: So you’re a grandfather do your children read Proverbs to their children now?
Tedd: Yeah they do and they read and pray with their kid’s everyday. And you know we were…what we did we read Proverbs in the morning and in the evening we had a time at the dinner table that’s as soon as the meal was over before you even cleared the table because if anyone gets up their all gone each one goes their separate ways. You want to gather them while they’re all there and we would sing, I learned to play a half a dozen chords on the guitar so we would sing with the kids and we would sing Bible passages and even hymns and chorus so we would sing together, we would work on memorizing Bible passages together, we would read a little section from the Bible and we would discuss it. And you know you have to be sensitive to the ages of your kids if you have young children read the narratives the Bibles full of stories; the kids are fascinated by the stories of the Old Testament and the New Testament.
Sid: And you know another thing that really intrigued me is when they get to be teenagers you really read to them the prophets why the prophets?
Tedd: Because the prophets, the prophets for one thing is 1/3 of our Bible if we’re going to say we’re Bible believing Christians we can’t ignore the prophets. And the message of the prophets is judgment; the message of the prophets is the severity of God it’s a God who was willing even to cast his covenant people out of the land of promise and preserve only a remnant.
Sid: Yeah but wouldn’t that scare the children?
Tedd: Hey listen “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.” Step number one square 1 in wisdom’s pathway is the fear of the Lord and I want my children to have a healthy sense of awe and reference of a God that is sovereign and holy and glorious and marvelous beyond description.
Sid: I’ll tell you Tedd it sure beats the teenager bobbing in for breakfast running late with purple hair earrings all over their body and not paying one bit of attention to their family for a teenager like that is their hope?
Tedd: Well I think there’s always hope because God is full of grace and mercy.
Sid: And we’re out of time.
Sid: I have a man on the other line I’m speaking to him somewhere in Florida. This is not his real name but we’ll call him Dr. Mark Gabriel, and you’ll understand why in a moment. He formally was a professor of Islamic history. A doctorate degree in Islamic studies, he taught at the most prestigious Islamic university in the world. I’d like to go back to kind of the beginning Mark. Tell me about where you were born and your upbringing.
Mark: I was born in south of Egypt in a Muslim family and I have 6 brothers and 1 sister. I am the only one of my brothers who was chosen by his parents to offer him to the God of Islam, Allah, to be his servant. This is why my family start to help me memorize the book of the Quran at the age of 5, and I finished memorizing the entire book at the age of 12. From there they send me to the Al-Asr Islamic school and I start to continue studying and other Islamic school until I graduated and I entered into Al-Azhar Islamic University. Which means the most oldest university in the world in Cairo and Egypt.
Sid: Now when you first started seeing contradictions in the Quran, what did you do about that?
Mark: You know this contradiction actually started with me from the first year when I was entered into the university because I start to concentrate deeply studying of the Islamic history and the Islamic theology. I was confused really by what happened really, what was happening during the Islamic history, and also I become very confused because of the contradiction between what Mohammed he did during his life, and what the word of Quran tells me. So I find myself started to walk in a dark valley of confusion and contradiction you see between the Islamic theology and the Islamic history, and the life of the prophet of Islam himself.
Sid: For instance in your book you mention just a minor contradiction but it is a contradiction in what is supposed to be a book from god. You said in one place that Muslims were forbidden to take alcohol, and in other places they’re allowed to.
Mark: Yeah this is the most sad issue you see, and you cannot really find a right answer or a good answer from the Muslim scholars.
Sid: In one place it says to be nice to Christians, in another place it says to kill Christians.
Sid: I mean, when you saw all of these contradictions and probably at that point you didn’t even know about the historical contradictions. When you saw all of these contradictions and you… did you take it to a professor and what did he say?
Mark: I was always questioning my professors there, and the contradiction really was take the place, and the word really neglected my right at that time because I have most of my neighbors they are Christians in Egypt. I wasn’t know how to deal with them according to Islamic law, and according to Islamic theology which I am busy studying here. So all the time I go to my professor and I’d ask him, and I told him “But how the Quran tells me that, and why the prophet Mohammed he did that?” So all the time my professor he just ask me to go to a specific book, this book explains about Muslims they are not allowed to ask questions about the basic of the Islamic teaching, and the basic of the Islamic beliefs, and what the prophet himself did in his life. It explains to me the Quran itself commands Muslims not to ask questions. For example, there’s a verse in the Quran I will read it in Arabic (reading from Quran in Arabic) “All who asks oh believers don’t ask about something because if you’re going to find the answer you will be disappointed.”
Sid: You know what’s amazing, I see the parallels between this and traditional Judaism. A Rabbi would not say that but he would say “Well I’m not holy enough, those that lived closer to the time when God spoke to Moses understood the scriptures better. So I can’t think for myself I can only tell you what the ancient rabbis said.” So it’s very very similar it is amazing to me, but you reached a point where you were really questioning your faith and you told the wrong people about it. You got fired from the university, then you were kidnapped by the Secret Police. What happened?
Mark: This is the most believing time was in my life in Egypt. I was never even dreamed that I would be treated in that way because all my life, even when I grow up, when I was a little boy and I finished the entire book at the age 12 my family did a great celebration in my area. Many hundreds of people they came to celebrate with my family because their little boy finished writing the book. I was finished all my education in a successful way. I became the 2nd student of my class who was contending with 6000 students at that time. So for me when I start questioning Islam and the way they really act to me, and later when the Egyptian Secret Police came and arrested from my home around 3:00 in the morning they kidnap me from my house. They put in me the prison for 2 weeks. The first week they left me in the first week for the first day without food, without water, without anything. The first day they came and they start interviewing me and find out what’s really going on in my life and why I keep questioning Islam, accusing Islam, insulting Allah, insulting the prophet of Islam, insulting the book of Islam, and all the time you see I answer these questions. “People I didn’t convert from Islam. Why do you accuse me that I convert from Islam?” They told me “Only” um um um what you call it, “for a person to question Islam and to do what you did the only way we can understand is that you are converted already from Islam.” I said to them “People how I can betray my religion, my people, my culture, my country easy like that? I am asking questions why can’t you help me to answer these questions? The professors at the university why they just can’t sit with me and just answer my questions and help me?” So they tortured me when they… you see… I’d just been for the first week the last 4 days in the first week under horrible persecution from them. When they find out that there is no evidence really can see I’m really converted from Islam because I was kidding saying to them “Why do you accuse me that I convert? You see Islam is my culture, my language, my family, my people, my history. Why, why, why you want to push me out of Islam? Why you can’t help me?” So however they stopped their persecution and…
Sid: Well from what I’ve read in your book what happened to you they not only whipped you, they whipped you until you were unconscious. Then they poured cold water on you so that you would wake up and then they’d continue whipping you, but you actually I don’t quite understand this, they put you in some water with rats that were supposed to eat you?
Mark: Yes cage full of water yes, with the rats yes. They said “…Okay this one is just using his knowledge and try to against Islam. We just going to destroy his brain.” So they put me in this cage full of water and they put hungry rats at that time for the whole night. It just was like a horrible dream for me, even when I left out of Egypt I could not really understand…
Sid: Did the rats hurt you badly?
Mark: No, no, no.
Sid: It sounds like Daniel in the lion’s den, or Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego in the furnace of fire they were supernaturally protected.
Mark: It was only my head comes out of the water and the rats they are just swimming over the water and…
Mark: Running you see around my head and come and just touch me in my face, touching my ears, and touching in my head, and I my heart was really in heaven praying asking the Lord because at that time I really didn’t meet with Jesus Christ. That time I was crying before the God, the true God, the One Who created me, created the world. How can He leave me alone here? So…
Sid: What about the dogs that they sent after you, explain that?
Mark: Yes after that they take me and put me in a room with hungry dog. When they take me to the room they told it was a friend of yours he came he just want to see you. I thought that this man came one of my friends came to fetch me or to find what happening to me, but when they put me in the room and closed the door behind me and I find there is only dog standing inside the room. I say “Oh God just help me with what this people trying to do to me.” So I find the dog just came, and what you call it, just started to sneff me?
Sid: Smell you.
Mark: Smell me, so I sit in the middle of the room and I just start to pray and asking God to deliver me from that danger and… so I slept and slept and I wake up and I find the dog he’s just sitting next to me…
Sid: So you’re saying to me that this dog was starving. They put this vicious dog in a room with you to destroy you, I read this story in your book. Instead of destroying you he wakes you up by licking you and staying by your side.
Mark: My yes…
Sid: So how did… you must of wondered how you had that supernatural protection?
Mark: This was really strange for my faith inside me that there is a God behind, there is God there, but I don’t know Him but I want to meet with Him.
Sid: We’re out of time.
Sid: This week I’ve been talking about what God has done in my life and I am one grateful Jewish man. A lot of people ask “Sid how did you get into radio?” Well I’d like to say I heard a word from God and I just did it but that would be a lie and then I wouldn’t even go to heaven. See I told you we had started a Messianic Jewish congregation and we had invited a man after a year or so to be the rabbi his name was Manny Brotman.
He had his own ministry, and so I was in the oil business at the time and I didn’t have to work much because God was supernaturally blessing my business and I volunteered my services at his office. I was sort of helping him with business things because that was my background.
One day a man from WCTN Radio in Potomac, Maryland came in said “Manny I’d like you to start radio show and Sid be involved in it.” We thought that was a good idea and I said “Wonderful Manny I’ll be the business manager and you be the on air personality.” He said “Fine” but he said “I want you to do one thing Sid I want you to be the announcer.” I said “No I don’t want to be the announcer.” He said “Well Sid you understand our ministry better than anyone else you must be the announcer.”
I did an awful job, I really did because I thought I could do it without having a script. So the next day I came back with a script and read and somehow got through it. So I was the announcer, but then a strange thing happened every time that Manny was supposed to do an interview something would happen. An emergency would occur and either I would do the interview or there’d be no show. I thought “Oh I can’t do this there’ll be all sorts of blank space, dead time I won’t know any questions to ask! This isn’t… I’m supposed to be on the business… Don’t they… Someone…” But I had to do it. I went in kicking and screaming. As a result I found out something amazing me. I found out God had gifted me for this. I found out when I didn’t have a question in my mind, a question would come out of my mouth, I really liked it.
That’s how I got into the radio ministry and the rest is history. I started out by interviewing just Jewish people that believed in Jesus and it was a lot of fun I really enjoyed it. But after a while I got bored, the same old same old. Remember the book I wrote? Remember the song I wrote? “There must be Something More.” Well I was getting bored and I figured if I was getting bored my listeners must have been getting bored. So I said “Okay Holy Spirit You show me who to interview. I don’t care whether they’re Jewish or not Jewish. I don’t care. All I want to do is interview people you want to interview.” So that’s how the Messianic Vision Radio Ministry evolved.
Then one day, a friend of mine from Canada called and they said “Sid we believe you should have a television show. We’re going to put $25,000 into a station in Canada. We’re giving them a check of $25,000 and we want you to do your shows there. So in affect you have a credit there.” That’s how we got into television.
The concept for television, our television show It’s Supernatural is so right. I mean let’s face it what is flooding the airways of secular television today? Shows about angels, shows about miracles, even watch a Larry King show and one day you’ll have New Age guru, the next day he’ll have a real Christian on. The world doesn’t know the difference between the counterfeit and the real thing, between the demonic and God. No one is giving God the credit in these miracles most of the people they just show them, but they don’t give God the credit, if they do they can’t be on they can’t get sponsors. So it’s a Catch-22 you can’t talk about Jesus you just talk about angels, maybe some good is better than no good. No! If you can’t talk about Yeshua, or Jesus, then why waste your time?
So we started It’s Supernatural Television, and the whole concept was for me to be a Larry King without suspenders, but with discernment and posture myself as an investigative reporter asking hard questions of people that have had genuine miracles, but the guests all happen to be Christians.
Then in the last 2 minutes I tell people what their heart is craving. Their heart if they’re Jewish it’s not craving to believe in Jesus, I guarantee you that they don’t want to believe in Jesus. If they’re Gentile it’s not craving to be born again, if they want to be born again they would born again, but it is craving for intimacy with the Creator. I don’t care if they’re a radical atheist. I tell you their heart is craving and crying, and shouting “Show me that I’m wrong I want to know that I’m wrong!” But we’re too radical to get a secular sponsor. I don’t want to talk much about money on television because we’re after unsaved people.
So what God has done is He has supernaturally opened doors on secular television outside of the United States. For instance, we are on in every little city in Ukraine. Then He’s opened up doors of Christian television. Praise God for Christian television because unsaved people do watch Christian television because they can’t see anything descent on secular television. Anything that’ll satisfy that void inside of them, there must be something more that same void I had I know about that void. I know there’s only one answer and it’s the King of the Jews, Jesus the Messiah, He is the answer.
So the last 2 minutes I look into the camera and I say “Do you want the same intimacy with God my guest has? Do you want to be able to reach into that invisible realm and know for yourself God loves you? Do you want to experience His love?” I tell people that there’s no other name given to men in which we must be saved but the name of Jesus.
Now I am proclaiming what I have been teaching. I believe that very shortly… I believe… I have been saying less than 2 years but I believe it’s going to be this year. We are going to get large enough sums of money in the ministry, people that love God enough to sacrificially give at this brief window of opportunity that we have in the United States of America. This financial prosperity we have, do you think it’s going to last forever? No it’s not!
But I tell you the night is coming and it’s coming very soon but while it’s daylight we must run with the message. Will you lift up my arms? Could you picture our television show on MTV? Could you picture reaching a generation of teenagers instead of what’s going… they’re literally destroying their body with this body piercing, they’re getting into necromancy and communicating with the dead, into all sorts of sexual perversion. Could you picture if they were just as radical for God?
I see the anointing of God increasing on our television show. It is state of the art secular quality and I’m believing that we will be very very soon in every city of the United States on secular television. On BET, on SyFy, on Family Channel, and someone’s just channel surfing. I wish you could read the letters of people in foreign countries that say “The power of God just came in and healed me. I’m writing, I never knew there was such miracles, I’m so intrigued by what you’re running.” They all say a prayer of salvation with me at the end. Will you be part of this team, or this family, or this army? It’s such a simple idea but it’s brilliant because it’s a God idea and it’s time has come.
So I’ve told you a bit… Oh! I didn’t even mention about the prophetic dreams I’ve had of books. In fact the book I’m offering this week is called “There Must Be Something More.” This was the first book I wrote it’s my testimony book it’s designed to give the Jewish people a special section by Dr. Michael Brown at the end to answer the hard questions that Jewish people are asking. I want you to read this book for yourself and then give it to the Jewish person that God has cross your path. This book came to me in a dream and God said I must write that. In fact in the dream he said I’m going to tie you up and I’m not going to untie you till you write this book.” I know there are people that are saved today as a result of this book. On the cover of the book is the original sheet music that I wrote when I was a nonbeliever and it’s the song “There Must Be Something More.” This is actually the original sheet music right on the cover of the book.
This is God’s time to reach Jewish people with the gospel and God has a method to reach Jewish people. The Jew requires a sign, the miraculous, you see it all tied together. If you go to the Jew first it opens up a supernatural door of evangelism to all people. What are you going to take to heaven with you? Your money? Your health? What are you going to take to heaven with you? You’re only going to take one thing to heaven with you, souls. That’s why Proverbs says “He who wins souls is wise.” Will you team up with me? There’s a short window of opportunity. We can change the destiny of America. I believe if enough young people are touched and radically saved that we’ll change the destiny of the United States of America.
Sid: My guest on the telephone Dr. Michael Brown President of Fire School of Ministry in Pensacola, Florida and New York. Shortly Pensacola will more to Charlotte, North Carolina. We’re talking this week on his latest book “Revolution in the Church.” And Mike we’ve been talking a lot this week of how the church went astray and doesn’t look remotely close to what God intended. Which happens with all things where humans are involved given enough time, but I want you to dream with me for a minute after all you’re a pioneer. Describe to me what God’s church should look like based on the word of God.
Michael: Yeah I don’t ever want to despise what God is doing in the body and it’s a tremendous danger when we think we have it or we are it or we get elitist in any way. But to me there are some very simple things that I see here and there in different parts of the world I see believers living this out I see it here and there in America. The first thing is that people get radically saved in a biblical way so that Jesus now is the Lord and Master of their lives and they’re heartbeat their goal is not just the American dream and it’s not just a nice life and it’s not just success, if God gives that to someone that’s wonderful. But if their heartbeat is how can I glorify God. The heartbeat is “How can I make a difference in this world.” His heartbeat is “How can I reproduce what God’s given me and share it with others.” They’re part of a community of believers whether it’s 200 people or 20 or 10,000 they’re part of a community of believers that really act and live like a community. It’s not just a matter or showing up and looking at the back of somebody’s head in a service once or twice a week it’s a matter of shared lives, it’s a matter of people pouring themselves out one for another. It’s a matter of the Holy Spirit flowing through the whole Body as people are out…
Sid: But you know what some of the people that end up in this end up just isolating themselves.
Michael: Well see what happens is and I do have some warnings and concerns about that in “Revolution in the Church.” We develop the selfish spirituality “Oh I don’t like those big meetings I like meeting in someone’s living room and we just sit and we fellowship for hours and we have pot luck meals and we really got to know one another.” Okay wonderful but how are you advancing the Kingdom, how are you furthering the great commission, how are you impacting the community, how are you glorifying God in the workplace, how are you joining together with other believers in the city to make an impact? So just changing the meeting size alone doesn’t do it. I’m talking about a community where people out on their jobs, people in their homes, people in from their houses. Kids are being raised in a Godly way and there’s a holistic witness of mom and dad and kids and business people and people preaching and teaching and Jesus is being lifted up. And the gifts of Spirit are flowing and God’s setting captives free and not only so something is being raised up with a larger world vision. You know we’ve just seen this Fire Community, Fire Church, here and we are anything but perfect and we are anything but the world model. God forbid anyone thinks that I’m saying “We’ve achieved it.” But here’s what interesting as we’ve gathered people together in our Pensacola Campus and now as we’ve started a campus in New York City. We’ve gathered people with a like heart and say “Hey let’s just try to follow Jesus the way we see it in the Bible; let’s not judge anybody else let’s just go for it.” You know we now have workers that have been sent out directly from our own community in 25 nations of the world. I’m talking about young people, old people, one couple…
Sid: And most people in churches today they’re going to die just sitting in their pew never walking into ministry.
Michael: You know we have 1 couple that went to Germany to start missions work as great-grandparents. We have babies now being born to our couples in Thailand, and India and Africa all of these people just going for it. We’ve just sent out a team of 5 couples mostly with babies to the Philippines to plant a work there and establish a base. And what I’m saying you’ve just got people who love Jesus and are going for it. And yes we have an order and yes we have a certain apostolic structure if you want to call it for sending and establishing works but that’s all secondary. What I’m saying is there are no superstars it’s not just the one or two elite vessels that the job done. We’ve had a family, mom and dad, 6 kids God told them to leave Pensacola and kids spread up to about 17 and 18 years old leave Pensacola go to New York City. I want you to build a house of prayer there in conjunction with the fire work that’s established. God told them to do it they’re responsible Godly people. They packed up they didn’t even have money to move but God told them to do and part of the money the last minute their 1 hour out of New York City still don’t know where they’re going to live and God opens up a place for them because they are responsible Godly and they’ve been devoted, they’ve home schooled their kids and they’ve gone after Jesus. And here we’re watching these things unfold just with regular people going for it. If we could somehow just mobilize, if we could change our mentality and you say “Well Mike that’s going to cost people, people might be rejected, they might be hated, they might be misunderstood.” Exactly! That’s what we sign up for when we come to follow Jesus, we are His disciples we are not here to say our lives we find our lives by losing them by saying “The purpose of my life is not to advance my life and advance my career and advance my education and advance my social status; the purpose of my life is to glorify God by life or by death.” That’s what it means to be a normal disciple and it seems so radical and revolutionary for most but it’s just a New Testament faith.
Sid: But let me read a quote from your new book. “While the lack of submission to authority is a great problem in the Body today, the abuse of spiritual authority is also reaching a critical mess.” What abuse?
Michael: Well I have a whole chapter called “Rebellutionary not Revolutionary.” In other words rebellion, self-will, pride will kill any move will hinder any individual walk. In fact I urge the reader read this chapter before you read the ones about the abuse of authority. On the flipside there’s something very dangerous in the body, which is sometimes people ministering out of their own insecurity, sometimes people not understanding the authority God’s given them basically keep people captive instead of a leader equipping the flock for the flock to go out and do the work of God as God sends them and directs them; what often happens is the leader builds and personal kingdom. It can happen in a church, it can happen in a school, it can happen in an evangelistic ministry.
Sid: But that’s the way it usually is when it’s the one man show.
Michael: Right and I know many pastors that love Jesus that are what you would call one man show that’s how they learned it and it’s the pattern they understood even when they read scripture somehow that’s what they see. But when you have that you often have this authoritarian almost dictatorship kind of thing. The authority just the goal of the authority is to keep people in the safe haven of that one church. “You are safe here under us if you astray away there’s danger.” As opposed to saying God’s given us an army here how can we equip them and build them up, strengthen them in their own walk with God that when persecution broke and they all have to meet in homes and were separated they would all be strong and would all be multiplying and all be going after God. And instead of providing good teaching and shepherding that helps keep people away from error etcetera as good shepherds should with their sheep. Guide them into in the word, nourish them in the things of God, preach the standard of God, be watchman on the walls to see when satanic attack is coming etcetera. Instead of covering people in a good way because the word covering could be used wrongly also. Also what happens instead of covering there is smothering and people even though…
Sid: And even though what you’re saying is even though the motivation could be entirely honorable to protect it ends up stifling.
Michael: Oh it stifles in a terrible way Sid and not only so there’s a chapter I have called “Confronting the Pastoral Fraternity, or How to Disarm the Ministerial Labor Union.”
Sid: A talk about a hot potato.
Michael: And the thing that’s fascinated me is I’ve shown on that topic at citywide pastors meetings and different areas in America and in other countries too leaders have said “Mike I’m so glad you’ve preached.” As I’m saying it I say “Yeah, you need to say it.” Because here’s what happens when you have a labor union the goal of the labor union is not “How can we do the work for the best price for the customer.” The goal of the labor union is “How can we protect our workers and make sure that they’re adequately compensated and make sure that they are secure.” And what happens is we get into this ministerial labor union mentality in different cities and different organizations it can be denominational it has nothing to do with denomination it can be either way, but it’s basically I’ll scratch your back you scratch mine. And as…
Sid: And as politics at its stinkiest!
Michael: If God starts moving at this other guys church down the block he’s got a congregation they’ve been praying and fasting but they’re not one of us. Oh they’re saved but they’re not part of our group and God starts moving God forbid that my people go there and find out there’s more. God forbid that my people go there and find the power of God coming down because I’ve told them “It doesn’t get any better than it is right here in our church.” And instead of rejoicing and saying “Thank God God’s pouring out His Spirit let’s bless our brother, let’s go and receive what we can and let’s hold his hands up and rejoice” it becomes competition, it becomes enterprise. Well if I lose my people then I lose my influence and I lose my money. And it’s the same battle that Jesus had with the religious authorities of His day. In point of fact it locks people into this insecure system. Many pastors will say “Mike you don’t understand I’ve been burned, I’ve been betrayed I’m not going to do it again.” And I know the pain that people can go through the undercutting and the under mining of their lives but I would say that if we can develop a healthy team leadership style and follow a biblical method of raising up people that we can trust, then suddenly the work can expand, suddenly more and more people can be energized and equipped to go out and do the work. And instead of smothering people with authority we can give them a sense of being protected and covered in a good Godly way while they’re released to run their race and go for God and make a difference. And I have people that come in and say you know “We don’t…” you know they’ll ask me “Are you the Senior Pastor of Fire?” I’ll say “Well no we don’t have the senior pastor.” And they say “Well who are you?” And I’ll say “Well, I’m the team leader, we have a leadership team and I’m the leader of our team.” And they say “Well, whose your pastor.” Well we say “Well, we don’t just have one pastor this one Brother Scott is our primary pictorial leader but we have a 5 fold ministry expression that we strive for.” And it messes with people because they just want 1 person in 1 role doing 1 thing and they just sit there and say “I just go to this church and this is my pastor.” And I’m not saying it’s same or wrong if you do that necessarily but it locks us into these little things that sometimes years and years and years we’re going around the same merry-go-round we’re not changing community, we’re not changing the world.
Sid: And then there’s some that are even more controlling and manipulative and use guilt and fear to do this.
Michael: Listen there is one school that I know of…
Sid: I know but we’re out of time come on back tomorrow Mishpochah….