Sid: My guest is red hot for the Messiah, his name is Keith Clark I’m speaking to him at his office in Tampa, Florida where he’s Prayer Director for Set Free Ministries. We’re making available the book of the leader of set free ministries Molly D’Andrea. It’s called “Set Free” true accounts of those that have been liberated from pornography, sexual addiction, masturbation, rape, molestation, incest, lesbianism, and homosexuality. Unfortunately this problem is not getting less, it’s getting more. Unfortunately we find this in the church because people don’t know how to be set free. This book will tell you:
- Many testimonies of people that were set free to give you encouragement.
- That the problem is not you, that it’s a spiritual entity that it really isn’t you it isn’t the person that God created, there is a hope there is a way to be set free and to stay free….
I have on the telephone Keith Clark and we found out that Keith was a drag queen, he was a male prostitute. He was a practicing homosexual, he got into drugs but God when he overdosed revealed Himself to him and said that “He was saved for a purpose.” And he came back to consciousness from a coma. What were the first words that you said when you came out of a coma?
Keith: Jesus, Jesus, Jesus those were the first 3 words that I spoke when I came out of that coma.
Sid: And then your ex-step mother was involved in the deliverance and getting you set free, tell me about that.
Keith: Well a couple of years later from that point like I told you I was on the streets selling myself because I didn’t have people to disciple me or people to help me out. So I did lapse back into my homosexuality, I did lapse back into the sin. And because I didn’t know how to be set free. I was on the corner praying and begging for God to help me and my sister came and picked me up on the street corner and asked me if I wanted to go to my stepmother’s house, Lynn’s house, to be with her because she wanted to go over for prayer. And I said “Sure, I’ll go with you and I’ll support you Debbie.” And we went to her house and Lynn did counsel with her but then she came in and said “Keith you’re not here for Debbie you’re here for yourself and God wants you to be here and to stay here. At that point and time I had such a drug addiction that my veins in my body had collapsed. I shot up in places that we won’t even mention, and I thought “Well this is a place to hide out. I wasn’t going to buy the God’s stuff because I had tried the God’s stuff. I had also tried people tell me that they would help me and then turn on me and I knew that that was… I just thought that that was no way even after the experience I’d had with the coma and stuff. Because I couldn’t get out of my mind that I couldn’t really be set free. Well needless to say for lack of time I’ll just skip over and say that Lynn ministered with me for 6 months nonstop and I read the word of God. I read Psalms the 10 chapters of Psalms for 3 months every night I read those Psalms. I read and I prayed and I prayed and sought God. After being with Lynn for just 2 nights I woke up after she prayed deliverance over me that the drug addiction totally gone, the veins in my body totally healed. God did such a miraculous thing. I had to get rid of everything that had to do with that lifestyle. And Lynn instructed me on that. The next day a guy showed up with everything I needed from underclothes all the way to shaving equipment and didn’t know why but he just felt led by God to bring this box of stuff and it was everything I needed. The following night a woman showed up at the door who was the same woman who was praying for me when I was in the hospital and interceding with me that night. She spoke with the same British accent as the angel spoke. I fell on my knees because right then I knew that God is real and that there was a chance for me. I proceeded to study the word of the Living God and to feed upon the word and eat it day and night. I became a new creature in Christ.
Sid: How long have you been free Keith?
Keith: I’ve been free for oh my at least 25 years.
Sid: Now you’ve devoted your life to helping others with similar problems and any sexual problems to be set free. Out of curiosity, tell me the most dramatic case you know of someone you were involved in getting set free.
Keith: Well after I got set free God had us open a house, and I literally went to the same place and the same corner where I stood and went to minister to people and we’d take them off of the corner and bring them to this house.
Sid: Where you were a male prostitute?
Keith: Yes, in Tampa Florida and we help these people. One guy that we did pick up he was so bad that he had bugs in his hair. He had been on the streets for so long and had been prostituting himself so long that it’s just indescribable. We took him, picked him up. I told him I’d give him $20 if he would just give me 15 minutes of his time I didn’t want to have sex with him but I just wanted to talk to him about my lover that I had had found. And I proceeded to tell him about Jesus Christ the Son of the Living God and tell him how much of a lover he was and could be to him and set him free. Well after a series of deliverance sessions and stuff… this man has such demonic spirits that he literally could read the word of God and backwards and then forwards, he could read one verse and then tell me that verse and know it’s a photographic memory and mind. And he just howled at the moon, I mean this guy needed deliverance so badly. That’s how God taught me how to pray for deliverance for people with working with this man. He was totally delivered, totally set free. He is now living a wonderful life with his wife and has 3 children, has never ever ever gone back into any kind of sexual perversion that I’m aware of. And would tell you today if you were talking to him that he has definitely been set free.
Sid: Keith I have to ask you a difficult question; are you just controlling your desire to be a woman, your desire for homosexuality or are you really free?
Keith: I’ve been asked that question by several men and several woman and if you could only see and know the before and after that question would not have to be asked. But to answer that question I can tell you definitely without a doubt, without any kind of hesitation that Jesus Christ has totally and completely set me free from homosexuality and drug addictions. Am I perfect, have arrived to the perfect state of mind, perfect state of man that the Bible would say like Jesus Christ. No, probably not before I stand before our Father. But I can tell you this that there is no temptation, there is no sexual addictions drawing us to any kind of man. And I’m very blessed and very pleased with my manhood and my identity in Christ.
Sid: You said that the best way to be set free and to stay free has to do with staying in the word, explain that.
Keith: Well we hear a lot today about formulas, we hear a lot about “You should do this, you should do that, but this is this, and this is that.” Trust me, as Paul said “I’m the chief among sinners” I can say I’m a chief among formulas. I’ve tried formulas left and right, backwards and forwards trying to be set free from homosexuality to try to be set free from this thing that plagued by mind. Because afterwards the mind has to be renewed after the deliverance. I only know of one way to be set free and it’s not a formula it’s a relationship with Jesus Christ. Formulas are good for the mind, they’re good to teach the mind, they’re good to renew the mind. The word of God is the best formula that anybody could ever have or do. That’s why I encourage reading the word, but relationship is a heart matter and that’s where. If you can get your relationship with Father right, then He will write the word of the Living God upon your heart and upon your mind and He will cause you to keep it.
Sid: Is there anyone anywhere with these kind of addictions if they want to be set free can be?
Keith: Oh yes, anyone anywhere can be set free from this at any time that they call out on the Lord Jesus.
Sid: We want everyone everywhere to be red hot for the Messiah. So what’s the deal, are you red hot, are you lukewarm, or are you cold? Well you know lukewarm is worse than cold, when your cold you know your cold, when you’re lukewarm your deceived. Guess what, if your lukewarm Jesus says and this is in the Greek, in the Book of Revelation the word of God says “If you’re lukewarm I will vomit you out of my mouth.” Listen, this is the wrap up. This is time that all of the prophets and all of the wonderful men and woman of old whose shoulders we’re standing on that we’ve been waiting for. It’s the time of the great harvest and it’s the time to be free. Now there’s many people that I’m speaking to right now that are not free in one or more areas of their life. There’s a specific area that I want to deal with this week, it has to do with eating disorders such as anorexia, bulimia, binge eating, and gluttony. You know gluttony is the acceptable Christian sin but sin is sin. And I have on the telephone Nancy Alcorn. I’m speaking to her at her office in Nashville, Tennessee. I’m interviewing her on her new book titled “Mercy for Eating Disorders – True stories of Hope and Real Answers for Healing and Freedom.” And I cannot pronounce her name Nancy. Darlene…
Nancy: Darlene Zschech like a check mark.
Sid: That’s it, Darlene Zschech you’re familiar with her from the Hillsong music this is what she says. “I personally know several young girls who the principles found in this book have been set free after near death from anorexia and bulimia. Mercy for eating disorders is so timely reminding us that freedom from an eating disorder is possible. I thank God for Nancy who on these pages is willing to tell the truth.” Now Nancy Alcorn, for my knowledge and listener’s knowledge how rampant are eating disorders today?
Nancy: Well they’re extremely rapid in fact it’s getting to the point that it’s almost like an epidemic breaking out. I travel not just in America but in other countries such as New Zealand, Australia and England and it’s the same thing everywhere. Young girls in junior high, high school, college and now even in some elementary school children….
Sid: I couldn’t believe last month on USA Today they’re talking about special fashion shops to glamorize little 5 & 6 year olds, I mean I think the whole deal is getting out of hand.
Nancy: It is, it’s leading right into this issue and causing it just to become more and more rampant.
Sid: Now you said something in the introduction to your book that is so fascinating to me I want to read this. First you spoke about anorexia, bulimia, binge eating and then you said “This issue has been explained as an evolution of self-medication that in years past manifested itself in alcoholism, then transformed into drug use in the ’70s, and now is evident in eating disorders.” I never thought about that before but I think that you’re really on to something there.
Nancy: Well you know I think that it’s just another ploy of Satan to try to destroy lives and he uses whatever he can. And there are girls out that are part of youth groups that go to church every Sunday that wouldn’t think about doing drugs or alcohol but they have got caught up with this whole thing of self-image and not dealing, numbing pain and trying to be in control. And a lot of girls who have suffered from eating disorders there’s 1 out of 3 you can relay it back to sexual abuse, and the whole control issue and the way they see themselves and all kind of stuff. It’s just so many things that play into it.
Sid: Now you originally were involved in secular social work, government programs but you got very frustrated, why?
Nancy: Well the reason I was frustrated was because I worked in the government system in the state of Tennessee and I was told that I could not share Jesus Christ, separation of church and state. And here I am knowing that government changes behavior but only Jesus Christ could put a new heart and a new Spirit in us. And when there’s a heart change behavior change is an automatic byproduct of that and yet the One that could change the heart I was told I couldn’t talk about. So knowing that the word of God says that “The Spirit of the Lord God is upon us because God has anointed us to heal broken hearts, to set captives free, to open up the prison of them that are bound.” Then to have the answer and be told “You can’t share that” so I saw kids leave that place 300 kids at any one period of time locked up for a year sent by Juvenile Court Judges and I saw kids leave the place from drug overdoses, killed in street gang fights, some past the age of 18 and ended up in the woman’s prison. Some felt so hopeless that they went out and committed suicide. And it was out of that that I became so frustrated that I began to cry out to God to show me a better way.
Sid: Out of curiosity you founded in 1983 that better way “Mercy Ministries” in which you you’ve seen 1000’s of young women between 13 and 28 rescued from really certain destruction. What results are you really getting, there’s a lot of women that have gone through those door?
Nancy: Right, well you know the thing that’s so incredible is we can’t… I’d love to say that it’s because Mercy Ministries is so great that these lives are changing. We actually are getting changed lives because God is so great and God is so good and He sent a Savior who could put a new heart and a new spirit in us. And when we have a way a message of hope and freedom where we can say to them Jeremiah 29 verse 11 “These are the plans that I have for you declares the Lord, plans to prosper you not to harm you and to give you hope and a future.” And God “You’re not a mistake, you were born for a purpose, God does have an individual plan for your life. And the past does not have to destroy your future, there’s nothing you’ve done that God will not forgive you for and God promised He’ll never leave you and He’ll never forsake you.” And we just really basically try to take all of the negative out and try to see themselves the way that God sees them. To be born again, to be filled with God’s Spirit, to understand God’s plan and purpose for their life, and to have their minds renewed to the word of God. And then that’s where the real transformation process begins as they renew their minds it’s Romans 12:2 “Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you can prove what is good, acceptable and perfect will of God.” So that’s what changes the lives, I mean mercy creates an environment where that happens but it’s really Christ who is the heart and the life changer. And because what He’s done for us all ready and girls receiving that and getting a revelation of it. And knowing that they are the righteousness of God in Christ, they’ve been forgiven and that then having the slate wiped clean and being able to start over, being born again. Then they can go forward and that’s why it works.
Sid: But Nancy you have this wonderful facility, and I’m sure you must even have waiting lists of people to get into it. Is that why you wrote your book, for those that perhaps can’t come?
Nancy: That’s absolutely true, we do have a waiting list of girls waiting to get into our facilities, we’re in the process of opening new facilities. There are 2 reasons, 2 primary reasons that were in my heart about writing the book. One is just about what you just said “We wrote this eating disorder book in such a way that girls would not have to come to a place called Mercy Ministries but they would come to a God of mercy who this place is named in honor of. We wanted to write it with the principles of freedom contained on the pages so that anyone who chooses to read this and apply it to their life with God’s help that they can overcome whatever they’re facing. And the second thing I wanted to do with is book is to expose the lies of the experts of the world who say that this is a disease that you cannot overcome that you just have to learn to cope. I wanted also to take our girls at free of charge because we want them to know that our love for them is pure, that our love is unconditional, that we’re not trying to make money off their problem, that we genuinely care. And we believe that they can be free but there is an industry going on in the name of treatment out there that charges some places $2000 a day for these girls to come. And as soon as their parents run out of money or their insurance runs out you know the same people that said they cared they don’t care anymore because that beds got to make money.
Sid: It’s a quick fix but they don’t get a changed life.
Nancy: Exactly, and so I wanted to expose that too, that freedom is possible and that there are a lot of people are being I believe taken advantage of financially by being told your “Daughters going to die if you don’t come here and get this help. And then they get all their money and they’re still not better.”
Sid: Put some flesh on the bones, take one specific person very briefly and tell me about a particular girl that was set free.
Nancy: Okay, well there’s a young girl that came in to the program and she had… I’ll tell you about one from just probably 2 years ago. Her parents were told by the sales department at this Eating Disorder Clinic that’s well renown that if they’re daughter weighed about 70 pounds, I think about 68 pounds at the time and very very thin and very much in a life threatening situation and just getting worse and worse and worse. And her parents were told if they didn’t use their retirement money, they’d saved $100,000 was all their retirement money, if they didn’t spend that to get that to get their daughter help. Because they didn’t have any more insurance, they had already exhausted all of that. If they didn’t spend that she would certainly die. So they spent their whole retirement and when they’re daughter graduated from the program Mercy Ministries, because she went through their program and she didn’t get the help she needed and she called us she was back at the same weight that she was before she went into that treatment program. And when she came into ours, while she was here about 6 or 8 months and she just needed to deal with the issues inside of her heart that she had never dealt with. And there were things internally that she needed help with. And so our counseling department pointed her to Christ, pointed her to the word of God, pointed her to God’s healing process. And it was a process of her working through things and making things right with people in her family that had heart her, and some other individuals in her life. But over a period of time her parents came and stood at her graduation and tears streaming down their face by this time because she weighed about 115 pounds and just absolutely beautiful girl. And she’s now back in college and doing great.
Sid: And you know Nancy when you see that and you contrast it with some clinics where people pay $2000 a day sometimes they keep the young person for 6 months, the parents go bankrupt literally….
Sid: My guest Katherine Ruonala has been granted an extraordinary miracle ministry, but the thing that I love about her miracle ministry is she wants to give it away she doesn’t want to keep it for herself. She has so many young people on her ministry teams and people of all ages that are doing exactly what she’s doing. But she has, I don’t know Katherine if I can say you either stumbled into it or somehow you got a revelation of the love of God which releases the miraculous. So on yesterday’s broadcast you’re a young mother, you’re filled with all sorts of insecurities fear, shame from abuse that you had as a child. You were a believer, you loved the Lord, you loved your husband, you loved your family but you still had those problems inside. So you asked God 3 questions:
- “What is this falling down, are they really being shoved down, is that really You God doing it?”
- “I’ve got a cyst on my wrist and I want to get rid of it.”
- “God if I could be free from this fear it would be so wonderful.”
So you get to the meeting Katherine and what happened?
Katherine: Well the pastor had suggested the people fast and pray for a healing. So I hadn’t done that, I’d not thought about it until dinner time and so I’d just had read a scripture and thought maybe that will be alright. He called peopled forward at the end of the meeting who needed prayer for healing. And I didn’t feel like I fully qualified but I thought I’d just slip on the end. And I lifted up my hands and right there the power of God came and I found myself on the floor with the power of God just touching me so amazingly. Finally the pastor came to me and picked me up and he just said “Oppression go!” “Bang” I was all over the floor again and during that time I saw the face of Jesus right in front of me and He spoke to me. And He said “Katherine, I’m setting you free from everything.” And unbeknownst to me the fear that I had that my husband would die was just a tip of a huge iceberg of insecurity and rejection and abandonment. And right there God came and He did such a deep work of deliverance that when I finally got up off the floor an hour later I was different, I was free. And the following week there was another meeting and a message about shame. And so I went forward to and I felt like I related to that. I thought the Lord just asked me to keep staying there and I began to look and the Lord began to show me a vision. I saw myself as a little child with my head on the Father’s lap and He was stroking my hair and I’d never had an experience like that. And then I saw myself as a child with this really ugly face and the ugly face just peeled off like a mask and floated away. And then I saw myself… I saw this woman walking in the heavens clothed in the most beautiful robes. And the only way that I could really describe her is that she was clothed in dignity. And then the Lord said “That’s you.” And then I fell on the floor again.
Katherine: And those 2 experiences God set me free from the deep fears and the insecurities. And just began to show me that the desire that He has to fill my need for love.
Sid: So this shame you had was replaced with what you just described, you had your dignity back.
Katherine: That’s so true. The scripture says “Those that look to Him are radiant and their faces are never covered with shame.” And that’s the reality of every day God wants to look at us and lift up our heads, He’s the glory and the lifter of our heads. It’s like the blessing in Numbers chapter 6 “He lifts up His countenance upon us.” The Lord wants to make His face shine on us.” And in His presence His perfect love just cast out fear and causes us to just shine with the love of God.
Sid: Well after that experience I would imagine people even looked at you and said “You look different.”
Katherine: You know they did, I had people come up to me that had not seen me for some time and they said “What’s happened to you, you look so different?” Because everything about me from the inside out changed; I began to walk differently and my faith began to be activated. Being delivered and having the Holy Spirit touch me like that I began to be able to trust God in ways I’d never experienced before. Because faith as you said “Works by love.” We’re not expected to have faith in somebody that we don’t personally know and I just truly believe that God wants to develop such an intimacy with us that we can easily have faith in Him because we know how much He cares for us. We understand His nature; the Bible tells us that “Those that know their God shall be strong and do great exploits.”
Sid: Now just out of curiosity you knew what you were dealing with all of these years; you knew some of the things that caused it. Had you had psychiatric help for these problems or the deep shame and everything?
Katherine: Well I kept it a secret for so many years and then when somebody asked me about it and the secrets started to come out I panicked and my whole body started misbehaving. They even did exploratory surgery to try to figure out what was going wrong with me. People suggested that I go and get counseling and the last thing I wanted to do was go and talk about it.
Sid: So you’re saying instantly on the floor a few minutes of God’s Spirit was better than 15 years of psychoanalysis?
Katherine: It’s so true and you know I value medical professionals but the reality is God did for me in a moment what a hundred psychologists could never had done. He restored my identity, He restored my dignity and He showed me in a way that nobody else could the value that He has for me and the love that He has for me. And I tell you God knows how to restore our soul.
Sid: Now something else I find interesting is after that encounter the prophetic started operating with words and visions; and you began to hear God clearer than you ever did before.
Katherine: This is so true and it was wonderful and the call of God came on my life. Previously I hadn’t had a thought of preaching, ministering, of healing the sick and all of a sudden God began to unlock the prophetic anointing; He began to give me visions. For many days I would find myself groaning on the floor as He was giving me visions of what He would have me to do in the future. And I journaled these things and the promises of God and everything began to change. I believe Holy Spirit had commissioned me because He had won my heart. And I had tasted of Him and the Bible says “Taste and see that the Lord is good.” I know that when you start to taste of God everything changes because you begin to realize this is what I’m created for; I am created for fellowship with God; I am created to be used by God and I believe that’s for everybody listening. In fact even as somebody’s listening today I see a woman who is listening to this and God is stirring you on the inside and saying “I’ve created you for miracles, I’ve created you to shine through you.” In fact He’s been polishing you up to shine like a star in the universe. He wants to pull it out of you; He wants you to look up at Him and know that He has a destiny and a future for you.
Sid: Tell me one of the first miracles that happened after this encounter.
Katherine: Well I had the opportunity to share at a meeting and a lady came forward for prayer. She was a sweet lady and she said “I’m a Baptist,” and she was beautiful and said “I have a tumor and could you please pray for me?” And so I said “Sure.” And as I went to pray for her the Holy Spirit touched her and she fell on the floor. And she said “She felt the hand of God go into her belly for a time.” And I went away afterwards I was traveling and came back 6 weeks later to a flurry of excitement. This was somebody that many people knew and unbeknownst to me this lady had been in for an operation before she came for prayer and doctors had discovered a 6 inch tumor wrapped around her pancreas; and they tried to operate but discovered it was inoperable. And she also had cirrhosis of the liver, but when I came back 6 weeks later she had had a barrage of tests they discovered there was no longer any trace of a tumor; there was no trace of cancer and she had a new liver. And I was so amazed because I didn’t know any of the other details, but when she gave God an opportunity to come and take the tumor God restored her body. As a result her husband got saved; she was completely made whole and so for me it was such a delight and a joy we didn’t have to try to make things happen; we just have to let God move through us and He does exceedingly abundantly above all we could ask, hope or imagine.
Sid: And that’s the key that I’m getting as I’m reading your book; what you basically say is “As you learn to be a gateway that God Himself can step right through that it’s not you healing anyone,” it’s not even you having enough faith to muster-up. And how would you muster-up enough faith if someone wanted to be prayed that had no eardrum you know. But God can do it through you. And she has understood a revelation of God’s love which is going to open that door for you.
Sid: We want everyone everywhere to be hit with the power of God, slammed against the wall because that’s what happened to my guest. I mean he’s minding he’s own business he’s a nice American Baptist Pastor. He feels nothing, he sees nothing, and all of a sudden the whole spirit world opens up to him. He gets equipped with a supernatural gift of discernment. Where he’s just praying for people there are words of knowledge as to what’s happened in their past that just opens them up for the deliverance. They could be in years of Christian counseling and not be set free. He’s found that this anointing is transferable and you can understand the gift of discernment. He says that this is key for the last days so that we not be deceived. And the thing that really intrigued me on yesterday’s interview Paul was… we were talking about teenagers, the hope of the church literally. And you were at a meeting with teenagers and you started praying for them and all of a sudden something happened to you, what was that?
Dr. Paul L. Cox: Yes I was doing youth group and I felt an unusual thing happening to me for 3 days before. On my head I felt like someone took their knuckle and put it on my head and it kept on happening repeatedly. I actually timed it, it was happening about every 90 seconds.
Sid: All day long?
Dr. Paul L. Cox: All day long for about 3 days.
Sid: At night too?
Dr. Paul L. Cox: At night too. I could not figure out what this was. We then got to Wednesday night to the time when we were praying when we had a youth meeting. And about 6:30 before the meeting start I started sensing something really unusual happening in the spirit. At 7:00 the kids came and I felt that I was supposed to lay hands and pray for this one teenage boy and I did that but then the power of God hit me and I fell down on my back and the power of God started coming up through my feet. It was so intense I literally was flopping like a fish. There was a brand new Christian who was sitting right next to me and the power was so strong on him he was pushed against the wall and his eyes were as big as a quarter as he was trying to understand what was going on. This continued for a half an hour I had all of this power on me.
Sid: What was going on with the other teenagers?
Dr. Paul L. Cox: They were quite amazed as they were looking at this. Of course the power started spreading a little bit too to them. I realized that to use the term computer language the Lord was like downloading to disk or this power for 2 or 3 days and then it’s like when you open a file ad you open it and just released this power that had been downloading.
Sid: And as we were saying on yesterday’s broadcast “It’s nice to have power but the only thing that you can measure results by is fruit. What’s going on with these teenagers that get hit with this power?
Dr. Paul L. Cox: Well we had seen the most amazing things happen. Often God gives them objects or swords. We were in Germany, Munich praying for another 14 year old boy who is adopted. And the parents basically brought him to me to fix him. And so I asked if they could step outside and his brother was 19 and stayed in to translate. And he told me about a dream that he had had about a demon chasing him. I told him it was probably something in the generational line. And I had him put his hand out and I told him the Lord was going to give him something in his hands. I did not tell him what I thought it was. And then he looked down and I said to him “What’s in your hand?” And he said “I see a sword.” And then he described the sword in an amazing detail from the blade to the handle. Then I asked him “What does the Lord want you to do?” And he says I need to go and kill that demon. And immediately he closed his eyes and started walking and this went on for probably 15 minutes. When he came back to us and he told me the Lord had translated him to a desert place, he saw the demon, he had an encounter with a demon. He then was moved to a fortress and he came to a round table, this was all in a vision that he saw. And at the round table there were warriors sitting and God was sitting there. As he walked up to God and God told him he had done a good job and told him to sit down at the table and join the other young warriors. I need to tell you that when he came back he was transformed into a different person because he had had an encounter with the living God. God was probably more real to him than he ever had been before.
Sid: But you do realize that in the average charismatic church where that experience to occur even with the fruit they’d probably try to crucify that young man.
Dr. Paul L. Cox: Well we have seen this but I really believe as I said yesterday that this is going to be the normative now for youth.
Sid: Religious spirits are going to go crazy over this.
Dr. Paul L. Cox: Well that’s nothing new is it?
Sid: (Laughing) Tell me a bit about discernment, do you see in the spirit realm, do you see angels? Do you see demons, do you feel them?
Dr. Paul L. Cox: The gift of discernment I believe works through the 5 physical senses. This is based upon the word discern in the Bible, also the English definition talks about discernment is tied to 5 physical senses. My gift is mainly in the gift of healing. I feel with my body what’s going on in the spiritual realm. There are people that I work with that see clearly, I have heard a few times, I have smelled a couple of times, I’ve tasted a couple time.
Sid: Now I know ministers when it comes to the gift of healing they feel a pain in a specific part of their body and someone is always healed. The pain goes away from their body after they’ve said this condition.
Dr. Paul L. Cox: Yes, we’ve also seen that in discernment. For example, the enemy maybe attacking someone we’re praying for a particular part of the body, and we’ll feel that pressure on our body in that same location. So we know how to pray for people, and then they get relieved of whatever pain.
Sid: Okay, you say you feel things in the spirit realm. You talked about the knuckle taping on your head. Give me some more examples of the types of things that you feel, can you… like for instance do you know the difference between a feeling that’s angel and a feeling that’s a demon?
Dr. Paul L. Cox: Yes, the Lord trained me in the early days by surrounding me with people who could see so I say “I am feeling this, what are you seeing?” The Lord first trained me in discerning the demonic and I started feeling territorial spirits and I started feeling angels, and I started feeling angels with messages and I started feeling cherubim and I started feeling witchcraft. I started feeling…
Sid: What does witchcraft feel like?
Dr. Paul L. Cox: Witchcraft to be feels like dirty anointing.
Sid: You know I have felt this and I’ve almost said “It’s almost like an unclean spirit.”
Dr. Paul L. Cox: Yes.
Sid: I mean it’s hard to put into words what you’re feeling but that’s the best way that I can feel it when I’m in someone’s presence that has an unclean spirit I feel that.
Dr. Paul L. Cox: Yes, so you may have the gift of discernment.
Sid: You know I believe that I do but because as I’ve been listening to your tapes and reading notes about you you’re saying things that I haven’t understood before but that’s what’s going on with me.
Dr. Paul L. Cox: Yes.
Sid: Would you give us some scriptures to back up the exercising of discernment in the feeling of the sense area?
Dr. Paul L. Cox: Yes in 1st Corinthian chapter 12 where Paul lists the spiritual gifts he talks about the discerning of spirits, sometimes it’s called the distinguishing of spirits. And a key passage for me is in Hebrews chapter 5 verse 14. And the context is very interesting, the writer says in verse 12 “For by this time you ought to be teachers. You need someone to teach you again the first principals of the oracles of God. And you’ve come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone that partakes fully of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness for he is a babe.” And I’ve talked through the Book of Hebrews as a pastor and I talked also in 1st Corinthians about milk and solid food. But what I did not understand when I started studying on discernment is that the writers very clear how you know if you’re on solid food. You know on most churches that I pastored and my friends’ pastored people would say “Well I’m not being fed here so I’m going to a different church.” And what they’re trying to animate here is “You’re giving me milk and not solid food.” But the writer goes on in verse 14 and says “But solid food belongs to those who are…” I’m reading from New King James. “Who are of full age that is mature, that is by those that by reason of use have their senses” (and this literally is the 5 physical senses), “exercised to discern both good and evil.” So here we have scripture saying very clearly that if you come to maturity in your walk you can discern good and evil through the use of your 5 physical senses.
Sid: And most people don’t even have a clue about what you’re talking. We’ve been talking about this. Give some other things about using the senses in scripture. Like the sense of taste or see or hear.
Dr. Paul L. Cox: Well you know in the Old Testament and the New Testament in Jeremiah and Ezekiel and John talked about receiving a scroll and that they ate the scroll and it was sour.
Sid: You know there’s some people that are mocking our discussion right now. I wonder what they would have done if they heard Ezekiel talking about eating the scroll?
Dr. Paul L. Cox: Oh, they would have thought he was crazy because the truth is that we believe what’s in the Bible was for the Bible time and not for today. I’m coming to believe that everything in the Word of God is exactly what it says it is. It happened and it is real and not only is it real but it’s for today. And you know that’s the problem we Baptists have is that we believe the word of God.
Sid: That’s good!
Dr. Paul L. Cox: And so I take the Bible at face value and many things that we thought were metaphors are in reality quite true.
Sid: Whoops we’re out of time.
SID: So God tells James, who is dying from lymphoma, cancer, that he’s going to have a surprise. He tells him the month. A pastor shows up. His name, his last name just happens to be Pastor Surprise, and Pastor Surprise prays for him, and fire goes all over his body. And then Jesus starts teaching him about healing. Tell me what Jesus taught you.
JAMES: Sid, It was so amazing. I never heard anything like this before. And obviously, I love the Bible and church history, and everything. But what he said to me was, the man of fire himself, Jesus, like Revelation, Chapter 1 says, “With every wound I received, I obtained a special level of healing for my people.” Now while I explain this, I believe that faith is going to light up in the people’s hearts right now, as I just explain this. And as I speak this out, a special level of healing will come your way right now. And he took me to his wounds, and just very quickly, he took me to his back and the 39 stripes. And within each of those places where the back of Yeshua Jesus was laid open, I saw names of sicknesses and diseases. I saw leukemia. I saw paralysis. I saw just different names, scoliosis. I saw names written in every one of the stripes of Jesus. He takes me to the crown of thrones and he says, “When the crown of thorns was pierced upon my head,” he said, “I obtained healing for every mental disease known to mankind.” He took me to his feet where they were pierced through and he said, “I obtained healing for paralysis.” He took me to his hands and said something very distinct, and he said, “Did you know that most diseases are transferred by touch.” And he said, “And I obtained healing when I was nailed, pierced through in my hands. I obtained a special level of healing for every contagious disease.” And right now, I believe the Holy Spirit wants to touch some of you right now. Maybe you’ve gotten just some kind of sickness. Maybe you’re like me with non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma. You have authority to give away what Jesus has given to you. And right now I just speak to leukemia, I speak to blood disorders right now. In fact, I speak to someone who’s on kidney dialysis and God has another way, and He is going to bring purification to your blood and to your kidneys. And God, Jesus even was pierced through. And I want to say to you, he has healing for every heart. And someone with like a hole in their heart and someone with a heart murmur, the Lord Himself is coming by to visit your house and healing is coming to your house today.
SID: One of the things that you said to me that is so important. It’s one thing to understand this revelation, which Jesus taught, like the 39 stripes. Explain that again to me.
JAMES: Yeah well, you know, Jesus, his whole back was laid open and it says, “By his stripes we are healed.” So he took me, turned to the side and he revealed his back to me, and I saw that it had been laid open. And within every one of these wounds, there was a name that was written of a disease or a sickness. Because for every wound Jesus received, he obtained a special level of healing for his people.
SID: Now you told me that you need that revelation, which we understand. And I said, now how do you get that revelation to become fact, and of course, there’s faith involved. But you talked to me about a principle God has taught you called decree. Explain what that is.
JAMES: You know, in the Book of Job, it says, “You shall decree a thing and it will be established. And out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.” And the Book of James says, that, “Our soul is saved by the ingrafting of the Word of God.” So we’ve got to store up the Word of God, the Bible, store up the Word of God in our hearts, and then we have got to proclaim the salvation of God. So we proclaim: “My house shall be saved. My whole house shall be saved.” We proclaim: “By his stripes I am healed.” I didn’t just have an experience. I didn’t only have an encounter. I then had to learn to work the miracle. It’s called, the workings of miracles. So God does His part and then we cooperate and we do our part. And I had to decree over my body, I had to speak over my organs, and I had to speak life. I had to learn to prophecy life, declare life over the very organs of my own physical body.
SID: I tell you what, we can talk on this forever. But I want to find out about that nine weeks of angelic visitations that came to your home. Tell me a little about it.
JAMES: Well it happened on the Day of Atonement. I had gone to sleep. My wife was asleep. I taught at a training center in the Kansas City area. And it was the Day of Atonement, the most holy day in the Jewish calendar, and we’re asleep. And a lightning bolt crashes in the dark, and I wake up at 11:59 at night, and the light from the lightning bolt comes into the bedroom, and now a man, an angel is standing at the end of my bed. I’m like awakened. My wife is still asleep. I’m awake. He looks at me for one straight minute. The clock turns to 12:00, and he says to me, would you like to know what he said?
SID: I’m on the edge of my seat. How about you? I would.
JAMES: And he speaks to me, this angel did, and he says, “Watch your wife. I’m about to speak to her.” And this opened the door to nine straight weeks of angelic visitations. It would go from midnight to 5 a.m. It amazing, supernatural encounters of a heavenly God.
SID: I tell you what. When we come back, I want to find out one of these amazing experiences from James. Be right back.
Sid: My guest Kynan Bridges who has been a guest previously on Messianic Vision probably has a handle on equipping believers on healing better than anyone I know. And Kynan there were several times throughout your life that key things happened to you to catapult you to where you are today; which a man anointed to equip others to move in the miraculous. A little over 10 years ago you had a breakthrough for you to operate in miracles. Tell me about that.
Kynan: Well yeah I was a young believer kind of coming up in searching. You know a lot of times you don’t have mentors in the supernatural. A lot of the mentors that you’re seeing now they’re pretty new but the scale that you’re seeing now is very fresh. So at that time that there won’t in at least in my circle of influence where people would really coach me. And Holy Spirit began to really dig into my heart and I just became thirsty for more. I wanted to know “Lord how do you experience the miraculous like the Bible depicts it?” I know what people are saying but I want what the Bible say is available. And I literally heard an audible voice of God and God said “Your hands are for the healing of the nations.” He said “I want you to take My healing power to the nations.” And at this time I didn’t even have a passport. (Laughing)
Sid: Just out curiosity was it common for you to hear the audible voice of God, had this happened much before?
Kynan: It’s happened on several occasions but usually you’ll get impressions or things like that, but this was a distinct moment. It was a supernatural thing, it was almost like the whole room becomes silent everything else becomes mute and you hear His voice; it’s almost as if time stands still it was one of those experiences.
Sid: Okay, then you go to a teaching on healing in which the teacher was teaching from John G. Lakes materials, and something highly unusual happened to you. What happened?
Kynan: So I’m in this teaching with a minister from John G. Lake Ministries. For those who know about John G. Lake he’s about one of the foremost healing evangelists in the last 120 years.
Sid: Remember the story about him where he had some live disease germs that should have killed him. He wanted to prove his point to a doctor and he put some of those live germs on his hand and he put his hand under a microscope and the doctor he was proving his point to looks at the germs under the microscope and their all dead.
Kynan: Yes, John G. Lake was notorious for doing that kind of radical thing. He did a lot of ministry in South Africa and he would be in the center of plagues and not get sick at all. And he believed according to Roman’s chapter 8 verse 2 that “The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made us free from the law of sin and death.” Therefore sickness can’t operate in our mortal bodies, he believe that with all of his heart. And so I’m in this meeting and their teaching on healing and stuff, they’re trying to demonstrate healing. And my wife and I were just there we were much younger in ministry at the time and the moderator of… the minister who was leading he stops in the middle of the conference just stops, stops and he points at me and says “You.” “I’m thinking, what did I do wrong this time?” (Laughing) And he says “You’re going to take God’s power to the nations.” He says “You feet are going to the nations.” And he kneels before me and he prays over my feet in front of everybody. There’s 100’s of people in the room and they’re just staring at me trying to figure out who I am. And he goes on and I’m thinking, “Okay, that’s past.” And he does it again, and this time he says “I can’t leave you alone.” You’re going to the nations, your hands your feet.” And I just kind of just resonated with me. And so later in the meeting they started praying for the sick and started praying for people. I was walking around the sanctuary and people would just grab me, they would just pull on my shirt, they would pull on my sleeve, grab my arm and they would call out different diseases “Fibromyalgia, cancer, diabetes, Crohn’s disease and they would say “Please pray for us.” And it was very very different for me, very weird at the time that’s the word I need to use to describe it. And I began to pray for people and people began to get healed supernaturally. Now I saw healing before but this was different, this was a different… it was almost like it was an impartation of some sort.
Sid: There were a couple more defining moments in your walk with the Lord in understanding the miraculous. I think that it’s great that God has anointed you for miracles and for healings. But what is much better is He’s also anointed you to transfer it. Anything you have others can do better, tell me about the time you heard the voice of God and He said “Go to your prayer closet and I will speak with you.”
Kynan: Yes, so it was one evening preparing and meditating. And what I try to do is I walk around and Sid I really challenge myself. Because I’m not satisfied with a healing or a breakthrough, I want more, I’m always thirty for more. And the cry of my heart was “God I know that there’s more, I’ve seen miracles, I’ve seen tremendous displays and I know that there’s more.” And the Lord spoke to me and said “Go to your prayer closet and there I’m going to commune with you, I’m going to speak to you there.” And I said “Okay.” And I went to my prayer closet and before I knew it I was almost in a fetal position and I begin to pray and just pray in the Spirit. And I don’t know if I was in my body or I was outside of my body I really can’t tell the difference at this time. But I begin to travel through the stratosphere literally it’s like the speed of light. And all of a sudden I come to this halt. And when I come to this halt I know I’m way above the atmosphere, I’m in another dimension somewhere. I look across and I see what I know by the Spirit is a heavenly Jerusalem. The clouds are golden underneath it; it’s a beautiful city it’s golden and the pearls you saw these colors and I looked at it and I longed for so much more. And I said “God I want to see more of it but it’s like my eyes are almost cloudy I couldn’t see it. The more I tried to focus in the more I couldn’t. The Lord spoke to me and I said “Why can’t I see it, why can’t I see more?” And He said “It’s the condition of your heart.”
Sid: That was the last thing that you expected I bet?
Kynan: (Laughing) No, it was the very last thing that I expected. But I knew Sid that God wasn’t just talking to me, I had this deep impression in my spirit that that was a message for the Body of Messiah, that was a message that He wanted all of us to know. And when I awoke from this experience I was laying in the fetal position crying and praying in tongues. Because the Bible says “Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God.” I believe that scripture if not just referring to the hereafter but I believe that it’s referring to the here and now because the Bible says “After this manner we pray “Thy Kingdom come Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” And so God wants to manifest His power and His glory in and through us here and now. Yes in the life to come but also in the here and now. And our ability to experience that is based upon the condition of our heart. How we see Him, how we perceive Him. That’s why there’s a great need in the Body of Christ for repentance. Now I know that…
Sid: Now isn’t it interesting that the message of the day is when you repented and received Jesus you are finished with repentance for the rest of your life. The exact opposite of what Jesus told you.
Kynan: It is the opposite but you know what this repentance is not just about sack cloth ashes and mourning. This repentance in its truest form that we see in Acts chapter 2 when Peter preached he gospel. He told the people, they said “They were pricked in their heart, what must we do to be saved?” And Peter said “Repent.” Now that is the Greek word “metanoeo.” Now metanoeo is not just a behavioral modification, it doesn’t mean to perform religiously, but metanoeo means a change in mind. A change in mind which will produce a change in action. When we understand true repentance not just this religious stuff but when we understand true Biblical repentance to turn from our understanding, for our ways and turn to Him. I believe Sid that we will see a greater display of the miraculous. I believe we’ll see the power of God in a way that we’ve never seen before.
Sid: Well my guest Joan Hunter is red hot for the Messiah and you listen to her just a little bit and you can’t help being red hot for the Messiah. Joan we’re featuring your brand new book “Miracle Maintenance” and your 3 CD’s “How to Receive and Keep God’s Blessing.” Not just for healing but every area in someone’s life and many people that have been sick for 20 years have been reading this and getting that fresh breeze from heaven and understanding; and the fog just gets out of their brain and out of their heat. And they are getting in position to receive their healing. Would you teach a little bit on how to get into position to receive our healing?
Joan: I love teaching about this because through this so many people are healed. And one of the greatest stories in the Bible I believe is the woman with the issue of blood, the greatest example. She had gone to the doctors for over 12 had spent all of her money and she was basically penniless and didn’t know what to do. She was anemic she had lost so much blood she was so weakened. In the natural if she was to leave the house bleeding then legally you could just stone her to death. And so she was willing to risk her life but in the book I talk about in one of the chapters I talk about how to receive and what we need to do to prepare ourselves. Now through the story here it talks about that she heard. She heard that Jesus was going to be passing by. And the next was she spoke, she said “I’m going to go see Jesus and if I touch the hem of His garment, or His tallit, I believe I will be made every bit whole.” And so she spoke it out “I’m going to be healed when I touch his cloak.” She acted, she got up, she got dressed which was very difficult for her to do she was determined. She went through 12 body guards big buff body guards trying to get through. She touched the hem of His garment, she received, she received her healing she did not just get healed she was made every bit whole. This is I believe the first example of blood transfusion because she had lost all of blood, lost all of her energy and just instantly infused with blood and energy. Number 5 she told others, it’s very powerful in the teaching and sharing about your healing. I love telling people I was healed of breast cancer, of a broken vertebrae, of a mangled knee, of a goiter. I love telling what God has done in my life, telling how He healed me of a broken heart and I love doing that. I’m not going to keep any revelation or any healing that He’s done in my life I’m not going to keep from sharing it because I am continually thankful of what He has done for me. And we need to move into a position of thanksgiving. The book of Deuteronomy is an excellent example some things that I primarily teach on it I really encourage people is to do a self-examination. Not self condemnation but self-examination to examine is there anything in here that may have opened the door for sickness.
Sid: Give some examples that might have opened the door for sickness.
Joan: Okay, not eating properly, not sleeping properly, under a lot of stress, and flat disobedience. Deuteronomy 1:28 one third of the chapter is on obedience and a blessing and how wonderful because of the blessings of God. But 2/3 is on the curse of disobedience and when we disobey God that opens the door up. Disobedience is any and all areas of our life opens up the door for sickness. It’s very important that we obey God in every area of our life. And one thing that’s very, very important is that we hear the voice of God and respond. And you think “Well, I don’t how to hear the voice of God.” It’s just very very simple as we just tune in, shut the phones off, shut the computer off put the kids to bed or whatever and just say “God speak to me.” And allow Him to speak to you, it’s a lot easier than you could imagine when He really wants to speak to you and He’ll speak to you in a still small voice. He won’t become at you yelling at you because He won’t do that He’s a loving God.
Sid: What advice would you give someone that has just gotten a death sentence from their doctor and their dealing with fear over it understandably so, they should not be but understandably so? When all of a sudden they’re told like you were that you have a tumor in your breast or you have some sort of heart condition and you’re going to die within the next year and they’re fearful. What would you tell them, what would you advice them to do?
Joan: I remember laying on the examining table and seeing the sonogram and seeing the left breast and down a little bit on the side of cancer. And I started planning my funeral in my head and then I started slapping myself and I said “No, I’m going to live and not die and declare the works of the Lord.” I started confessing scriptures of life “By His stripes I am healed.” And I started confessing and not die, I’m going to live and not die, I’m going to live and not die. And we can succumb to the death sentence or we can stand up and say “No, I’m going to live and not die.” I’m just going to pray for that because there are many of you listening that have been given a death sentence in your health or even in your emotions. And so Father, in the name of Jesus I just curse any form of trauma, I curse any form of hopelessness, I speak life restored. I cut off in Jesus name the death sentence that has been spoken over them either by the doctors or even by themselves. I cut every bit of that off, I speak clarity of mind, restoration in the body in Jesus name. I speak and declare that they are going to live and not die and declare the works of the Lord in Jesus name. I speak peace that passes all understanding in Jesus name I curse any form of cancer in any parts of the body of people that are listening today in Jesus Name. I curse every prion and I speak health and wholeness and restoration in Jesus name. And Father right now in the name of Jesus I just speak complete restoration, I speak healing of marriages and emotions where that’s concerned. Father there’s just such a hopelessness, feelings of hopelessness, Father I speak life and health and complete restoration in Jesus name. Hallelujah!
Sid: I am so excited about the people that are being healed this day and you know what I still see people I know we prayed for it yesterday, but I still see people that their knees are being healed right now. As a matter of fact I don’t believe that there is anything of any condition that you could not be healed of if… I’ll tell you what Joan rather than name the conditions because Jesus paid the price for every name and His name is higher than any name of physical condition. I want you to pray for everyone to be healed and tell them to put their hands on themselves like you did to yourself and you get rid of all of that junk in Jesus name.
Joan: Father right now in the name of Jesus I send the word of healing to every single person that is listening that is with the sound of my voice. Father right now I send the word of healing, I speak health, I speak wholeness, I speak hope, I speak restoration in every area. I speak ears opened up, minds beginning restored, stomachs being healed and every single part that hands are being laid on right now healed and whole in the name of Jesus.
Sid: And it is finished! In fact it was finished 2000 years ago you received that now, now hold on to it that by faith and patience you must inherit the promises. And I want her to preach at you and into you until you’re doing what she’s doing…
Sid: Well my guest is red hot for the Messiah his name Pat Schatzline. I find this pretty interesting I was speaking before we went on the air and his dad comes from a Jewish background. See I had a cousin whose last name was Schatz, I don’t know what it was shortened from, so that’s why I suspected that your dad was Jewish. But at age 5 your dad comes to the Lord, what were the circumstances?
Pat: My dad worked for the Teamsters in Detroit, Michigan and was running drugs and a number of other things. My mom went to a Southern Gospel Sing when I was just 2 weeks before that and she had been raised in the south, married my father. Dad worked for GM and he worked for the Teamsters and well, for Ford and the Teamsters, excuse me. And my mom gets invited to church, now my dad was a thug, he was a drug runner the whole family. I can still have memories of waking up with a drug room and all of the other stuff. And my mom goes to church, has a radical encounter with God at this Southern Gospel Sing and comes home. She’s in the middle of a poker game and she turns on Southern Gospel, the guys that were playing poker with my dad getting drunk (Laughing) get under conviction and leave. My dad was so angry, two weeks later the neighbor that had invited my mom to church kept inviting my dad. My dad literally threatened the man with his life. My dad had long hair down to his waist and was crazy but my dad drove his car through our house one night through a drunken stupor, drove right through the garage, the car was in the kitchen. And about 3 days later he realized that he was going to die like so many of his friends had in that type of culture. He got on his knees in the bathroom, flushed dope down the commode and gave his heart to Christ on His own.
Sid: Now as a young man you had quite a background, you… did you literally see angels bring your family cash when they needed it, food when they needed it?
Pat: Absolutely. You know my dad gets saved, goes off to Bible College 3 months later gets radically touched by the Spirit of God. We moved to the south and he starts pasturing this little church, churches that couldn’t afford our family. And I can remember one night that my parents had prayed “God we need $700 tonight to pay for the church building.” We lived in an old parsonage, it was actually an old church. They left went to a meeting and my sister and I were home and we lived on a freeway. And a man knocked on the door, almost what you’d think Jesus would look like. I was about 10 years old and he hands me an envelope. And he says “Is the master home?” And I said “Do you mean my dad?” I go “No, he’s not.” He said “Give him this, when he shut the door I opened the envelope, it was open and there was 7 $100 bills in the envelope. I yanked the door open and Sid you could see anywhere for 2 miles where we lived. We lived on a freeway and no one was to be found. My parents came home, I handed them the envelope and they fell on their knees and began to weep. On other occasions we would be sitting at the dining room table, no food to eat, place settings there and my father would pray “God, we need groceries.” Someone would immediately knock on the door and back a car up and give us groceries and my father would go to thank them and they’d be gone. Crazy experiences like that happened.
Sid: Okay, you know the thing that I often wonder seeing what you saw being raised in such a godly home. At 16 you got in trouble with the law, you were drinking how could you do that?
Pat: You know Sid I think that it was because my parents got so radically saved out of the drug culture that we moved into a mentality for many years of maybe legalism, religion. My dad pastured those little churches and it wasn’t even my parents, it was those little churches and I would say “Are good for one thing, the making and the breaking of a man of God.” And I saw so much in the church that it made me begin to doubt “Okay God.” Now let me say this “I always knew God was there.” There was a time when I was in that car drinking with friends driving down the road and another car came at us in a head on collision and even in a drunken stupor with my friends I screamed “Jesus.” And our car went right through their car and kept going, I can only describe it as a supernatural experience. And it was 2 weeks later in my bedroom floor that I said “God if you’re real I need to know it.” And God walked into my bedroom.
Sid: What do you mean “God walked into your bedroom,” tell me what happened.
Pat: (Laughing) you know I speak a lot overseas and I hear great stories of people having dreams and great stories like that and for me I said Lord… I’m laying in bed and I could hear my mom upstairs praying in her bedroom for me in the Spirit and she was crying out to God. I said “Okay God if Your real prove it.” I laid there for awhile nothing happened. I said “Well, there you go and I got on the floor because I’d seen my dad my whole dad when I’d get up in the middle of the night laying on the floor praying. And he’d get up in the middle of the night and pray all night. And I got on the floor and I said “Okay God if my dad can do it then let me try it like that.” I’m laying on the floor and I fell asleep and somewhere in the night Jesus Himself walked into my bedroom and I looked up and the glory of the Lord filled the room. I had never had an encounter like that obviously, and he said “Pat give me everything, give me your heart son, I’ll take it.” And then He said this to me and Sid it seemed so odd, but He said to me “I’m so sorry,” I start crying when I talk about it.” In fact I feel like there’s somebody watching or listening right now by the radio that needs to hear this. The Lord spoke to me and He said “Son, I’m so sorry that my bride has hurt you over the years.” Because I saw my mom go through things and have a breakdown. A lot of that stuff was caused because they were so raw out of the drug culture and then within 3 years they were pasturing churches. But the Lord spoke to me and said “Son, I’m so sorry that My bride has hurt you, I will protect you, I will anoint you and I will use you.” And instantly I gave my heart to Him and was radically filled with the Spirit at that moment by myself. Ran upstairs woke my parents up and said “I just had an encounter with God.”
Sid: You know I have to believe that there are so many people listening to us that have been turned off by hypocrisy of humans that are believers in the church. Never ever judge God who loves you, who died for you, who appointed you, who has a marvelous destiny for you by someone that has a misunderstanding of God. And that’s the problem, we judge God by people. We have to judge God by God (Chuckling)
Pat: I’ve heard that over and over people go through dark times “God must be made at me. And the Lord spoke to me one day when I was running. He said “Son, tell him I’m not mad at him, tell him I’m mad about him.” And He said “Rewrite my resume to a generation because religion has a great way of high jacking the character of the Holy
Spirit.” And religion walks around with a noose in it’s had ready to choke you. But relationship with Jesus walks around with a fresh glass of water ready to feed you.”
Sid: Okay, tell me about your latest book “I Am Remnant.” I love that title it kind of grabs you. What is this about, where did it come from?”
Pat: Well, you know I was out I always say “When I’m jogging God speaks to me” and He does, it’s the weirdest thing and if I need to hear a word of the Lord I go for a run. And I’m out talking one morning and getting ready to do a conference in Dallas where my son is a youth pastor at. And all of a sudden the Lord just hit me, He said “Son, He said “I want to raise up my remnant.” And I’m worshiping I’m praising God as I’m running and I said “Lord, I’ve heard that word my whole life and in fact in high school and college I laid carpet and the remnant is the left over pieces of carpet that you throw away. And I said “I know, and He said “Go research it.” So I ran back to my hotel room pulled up Romans 11:5 “So too, the present time there has been a remnant chosen by grace.” And the word remnant means rag, what’s left over. From cover to cover Old Testament and New Testament it is all about the remnant. The remnant is not about the large crowds, it’s those that would stand for truth through the power of Holy Spirit and through the darkest of times. And so I wrote a message called “Remnant Rising” preached it the next day in Houston and 40 churches, people started running to the altar. Sometime later God began to birth in me “Now you’re going to turn it into a book.” And that began to come alive in me so that now, I do believe that we’re racing against the rapture. I believe that we’re living in very dark times. I believe that God is about ready to raise up a remnant in America, Israel has always been the remnant. But God is raising up a remnant that will stand firm. You know Amos 9:11 speaks of the Tabernacle of David being restored and it says in it that “The remnant will come forth.” All through Zephaniah 3, all through God’s word it’s about the remnant those that will say “Enough is enough I’m not bowing to culture, God’s word doesn’t change with culture I’m going to stand for Jesus Christ in the darkest times.”
Sid: Now you have something called the poster that is called the “Manifesto of the remnant” what is that?
Pat: You know after God gave me the message I began to write it for my publisher and boy the heavens kind of closed. I mean I just wasn’t getting anything and I was say the teacher doesn’t talk when he giving a test. I had passed the deadline and you know what that’s like through your books that you’ve written. So I looked at my wife and I said “I’ve got to go hear from God.” And so I loaded up in the car and drove to the track where I run at. While I’m out there I said “God are you with me?” I literally said that and He spoke to me and said “Get your phone out I’m going to share something with you.” And the Lord downloaded to me in 45 minutes, it’s so funny because people are running past me on the track and it’s late in the afternoon. I’m weeping uncontrollably and typing on the little yellow pad on your iPhone and God gives me 34 prophetic words and He said “Son,” I call it the manifesto of the remnant. And He said “Now son take this and build your book around it.”
Sid: I’ll tell you what we’re out of time right now but “You’ve been listening to us are you ready for greater intimacy with God? Are you ready to really walk with God like Enoch did? Are you ready to demonstrate His Kingdom?” Guess what He’s already called you, guess what He’s waiting for you. This message from heaven will cause you to experience the awesome love of God that will revolutionize your life….
Sid: My guest this week Lindell Cooley the Worship Leader for one of the greatest Revivals for the 20th century Pensacola, Florida, Brownsville Church. And Lindell you’re a Worship Leader you will always live for worship but now you’re passion is to cause people to learn how to really worship God and get into the presence of God and intimacy with God. But how did you make the jump from Worship Leader to Pastor?
Lindell: Well it actually came Sid as a result of study; I had read many worship books about worship. People were handing me books about worship through the rival. I’d never really studied the scripture a lot on worship. So I basically went back to the drawing board of the scripture of the 66 books of the Bible and I pulled out the words worship and I found the most interesting thing. I found that in the Old Testament there is one word that is used 64 times in it as the word worship. When Abraham worshiped the Lord at the altar it’s this one word, chakal 54 times. And then I looked at the New Testament and there was another word called proscenay which was used 34 times. Well the word worship was only used 108 times according to the English translation. So if you take 54 and 34 you have 88 so that only leaves about 20 uses for the other words. And I was shocked when I read the meaning of those words. Proscenay means to fall down, to prostate ones-self in homage to God. To do reverence to, to adore. Chakal means to homage to royalty to God, bow yourself down, crouch, fall down flat, humbly beseech.
Sid: You know what I don’t hear anything about music and singing in the definition of those two words that were used the most.
Lindell: No, praise is where the music is at but when you study worship it’s all about humbling yourself. And we were telling the story about I was at the airport and I was walking by a shoeshine booth and I noticed that there was a Muslim man and he was in the middle of working his business and he excused himself, he had other customers lined up and he stopped and he said “Give me just a few minutes” and he spreads out his prayer mat right there and bows and humbles himself to worship and prayer to Allah at his prayer time. And I was amazed to see that happen in a businessman’s situation.
Sid: Well Christians won’t even pray in tongues when someone is around them in an airport let alone get on a mat. And by the way this whole definition about the word worship that you’re using prostrating yourself. There’s something Islam got it from Judaism about when you do that you’re heart… explain the position again.
Lindell: When you bow down as the Muslims do you bow and your heart is elevated above your head. So when they borrowed that from the way that we worship Jehovah then literally… but as I see Christians these days they don’t understand that it’s all about standing stoic in a meeting. It’s a big deal if they lift their hands, never do they bow but see they don’t bow because they don’t understand how our God has been treated by His people through the years. He’s been used, he’s been neglected and people don’t understand that God is a person. And as a person He can be cultivated, He has feelings, He has thoughts. If you can cultivate a friendship with anyone you can cultivate one with God. Well imagine if you were God and all you ever did was good to your people and they rejected you. I think about that when I worship the Lord and that’s what drives me to worship the Lord because He’s done nothing but good to me nothing. And He’s so worthy and I wish I could spend the rest of my life just returning back to Him just a piece of all of the goodness He’s given to me. And it drives me to worship Him. And I wish it would drive every person that believes in God Jehovah to worship the Lord.
Sid: If someone took your teaching to heart and started doing what you teach them to do you what you do, as a matter of fact what is your worship like in the morning tell me about it?
Lindell: When I’m in my car I’m singing to the Lord, I’m talking to the Lord on the way to business meetings and appointments. I sing to Him I make up songs to Him, we keep worship through the years, we try to keep worship music in our home. Because the atmosphere is moved by the worship it absolutely fills the atmosphere with the presence of God. Because He promises Sid when we worship the Lord He will inhabit the praises of His people. He’s going to come and house Himself with you when you worship Him. And when He comes all of His goodness comes with Him. (Laughing)
Sid: So for the person that’s listening right now when I play one of your songs called “Let it Rain” what is that about?
Lindell: That’s about the reign of the Lord falling on the earth on dry ground He promised that He would send rain and relieve the draught. The hunger that we all feel in the world for the presence of God it’s our cry to God to say “Lord send Your rain and fill this place. Lord move by Your power,” it’s a cry out to God to come.
Sid: Is that’s your heart because if you’re in a dry place if you feel you need more, if you feel stuck then listen right now to:
“Let it Rain.” Worship excerpt
Sid: I wish I could play that whole song for you, I wish I could play the 2 CD’s done in the midst of revival. There’s such a fire, there’s such a presence of God on this music Lindell Cooley and then your 6 CD’s set on worship. The Lord actually had you study everything you could about the life of David.
Lindell: Yes Sir, yes Sir about 3 years before I actually left Pensacola the Lord put me on a mission to study. And when I finished He gave me an examination, He said “What did you learn?” And I put everything down that I learned about David, great great greatest king ever. But I did not put musician on there and the Lord said to me “You left something out.” And I said “Okay, okay musician” and when I said that I revealed my heart, I didn’t think that as a musician I had the ability to lead people. And the Lord spoke to me and He said “I’m calling you to build me a House where they know how to pray and they know how to worship me and make a place for My presence and I’m going to send you to do that.” And that’s how I became a Pastor.
Sid: Well when I was in Israel a number of months ago I bumped into a man that I’ve heard a great deal about and had a chance to meet him in person; his name is Chuck Pierce. I’m speaking to him at his offices in Denton, Texas but as I said Chuck I’d much rather be talking to you in Jerusalem, Israel any day.
Chuck: Well, it’s such a great time just being with you there Sid and I’d like to back there with you also especially we were there at the head of the year at Rosh Hashanah. So it was such a blessing being there with you. But even perhaps even this way we’ll be able to communicate some things that will help those who are listening to us today.
Sid: You know my producer gave me notes about your background and I find this fascinating you can’t judge a book by its cover. You had a pretty rough background your father was an abusive alcoholic. And although praise God I was not in such a situation I have family members that have and that’s a pretty rough to grow into. He was involved in prostitution and gambling and pretty much destroyed the family. But somehow you managed to get saved at 11 and your mother was a godly woman but she didn’t know what to do about all of the turmoil. And then your father died and the thing that happens so often Chuck is that whatever we judge our parents for and I don’t know whether you judged your father or not. But whatever we judge our parents we many times end up doing it.
Chuck: Well, that’s absolutely right. The thing about my Dad my earthly father was a gifted wonderful man that the enemy someway ganged opening to and all the potential he had Sid just got aborted; he never brought it into fullness. Really when I think of my Dad and my family I do think of Israel there with all of God’s covenant potential all of God’s covenant blessing, all of God’s covenant promise and yet you would find that they would stray. And what happened to me my Dad died prematurely when I was 16 and it was a very tragic death and I seem to…I had had two incredible experiences with the Lord but I seem to find myself stray away after that. And when I was 18 I had this godly grand-mother, you know you look at Timothy and he had a godly mother and he had a godly grandmother. And this godly grandmother of mine came to me and said “Son you’re going in the wrong direction and you’re following the direction that your Dad followed and God has another plan for you.” Well you know when you’re 18 and you know more than Jesus you don’t tend to listen very carefully. And so I told my grandmother and this is interesting this is how God works with us sometimes I said “You know I’m really not interesting in hearing that Mama” and that’s what I called her. And yet I respected and loved that woman more anything in the world. And I’ll never forget it I had left college that day to go over and eat with her and she set my plate of food down in front of me and she turned around and she surprised me. She surprised me because with the back of her hand she knocked me out of the chair.
Sid: That’s a surprise.
Chuck: Yeah and she said “Then I won’t say anything else I’ll let God deal with you because your god.” And you know I didn’t really know what that meant but it gave me that feeling of a mixture of fear and I wonder what will happen. And three months later I found myself in a hospital room, I had collapsed physically tremendous tremendous problems physically. And my grandmother of course was a nurse in that hospital and said “I told you the Lord was going to do this with you.” And yet in God’s sovereign grace he put me in the hospital room with a Pentecostal pastor and he introduced me to a person I’d never had been introduced to before named the Holy Spirit. And so God in his sovereignty just sort of grabbed my life and took it. But He spoke something to me in a hospital room he said “I can restore all you’ve lost.” And this is what was so incredible for me the Spirit of God visited me for 3 days.
Sid: What do mean by that “He visited you?”
Chuck: Well, it was as if He came into the room with me. I began to weep it’s as if He was in the room I could actually feel his presence.
Sid: But then out of curiosity you said that when you were younger you had a few experiences with God was anything to this degree previously?
Chuck: I had had an experience of salvation because I had been in Baptist Church, they would give an altar call every Sunday. But there was an older lady in our church she was over 80 and there would come times where this lady would stand up and worship and this is one of the most impacting things of my life. She would stand up in worship, she would lift her hands up and the Pastor would stop his message when she would do that on occasion and say “Miss Grimes what is happening with you?” And she’d say “The Lord is speaking to me, the Lord is speaking to me.” And it would amaze me and then when she would share what God is saying to her the whole atmosphere of the church would change. And nobody ever mentioned prophesy, nobody I never heard that word. But what she would do actually was prophesy to the congregation and it had such an impact on me that I knew God was real. And so when he would say “If the Lord is speaking to you today to come forward come forward and meet Him today.” I waited for God to speak to me because I knew that if He could speak to Miss Grimes He could speak to me. So when I was 11 years old the Spirit of God came to me and said “This is your day come forward with Me.” So the reality of God’s voice was real to me. And then through living through the trauma you mentioned when I was 16 the Spirit of God spoke to me and it actually saved my life from a disastrous time where my Dad had lost control. So in that when I was introduced to the Holy Spirit it was like I got to know His person in the hospital room. His presence was tangible and when He spoke to me and said “I can restore all of you’ve lost” it was just an incredible dynamic. And I picked up the word of God in that hospital room and I started reading in Genesis. I knew Bible stories but I’d never read the Bible and when I got to those 12 tribes that God had a plan for and I saw His covenant relationship with Abraham some way or another He gave me revelation of not only His covenant relationship with Abraham and the land of Israel but He gave me revelation of His covenant relationship with me as well.
Sid: Now you wept for 3 days.
Chuck: I wept and wept and wept and here was the interesting thing my Dad had acquired the land from the 12 brothers and sisters of his family.
Chuck: He had all of that land he had worked and acquired. And you can imagine and reading the Bible and seeing those 12 tribes. And all of that land God had given them the Bible became so real to me and it was as if God had ordained an understanding came to me because…actually you mentioned something at the beginning. I really never had bitterness toward my Dad I knew, I knew that some way what had been planned for him had been thwarted by an enemy and he had gone the wrong way. And even in all the trauma we had experienced and it was as if when I was 18 I started gaining understanding. And I can honestly say to you listeners God has an inheritance for you and He will secure your inheritance for you if you’ll let Him. And since that day I’m 50 this is my 50th year this year in the earth realm. God has restored my family and restored my life and restored my joy in Him so He can do the same for you.
Sid: Chuck the thing that is so fascinating to me is then shortly thereafter you were in a car the presence of God just overwhelmed you with His love but somehow God gave you information about what was meant for your Dad but you would be able to get those blessings. Explain that.
Chuck: It was really interesting because again after you’d experienced God like that like I did in the hospital there for 3 days that Pastor got out of the hospital I stayed another week and that’s when the Lord visited me. And I’ll say something else too Sid in the midst of that visitation in the hospital it was during the time of the tragedy in Munich during the Olympics and my heart understood…
Sid: So you’re really tied in with Israel in lots of ways Chuck.
Chuck: God opened the word up to me for Israel. He opened up His covenant plan, He showed me my grafted you know later on I understood the word grafted in but it all became real to me. And then the tragedy of Munich when you’re seeing the hate of the enemy destroy the Israel team in the Olympics I understood Satan’s vengeance that He had on God’s seed and on God’s plan in the earth. And so something happened to me and that’s why later on a few years after that I was driving to work in Houston and the presence and the power of God visited my car again. And I had become very devoted to the Lord by now but you know He doesn’t….
Sid: I’ll tell you what Chuck we’re out of time just hold that thought…