Sid: My guests in the studio are red hot for the Messiah Doug and Jean Jones. They are teachers from Shiloh Place Ministries Conway, South Carolina. You’re familiar with Shiloh place Ministry of Jack Frost that has been a guest many times on our show. Doug and Jean unfortunately have a lot in common with a lot of the people that are listening to us right now. They were believers, Doug was into his career, and Jean was getting increasingly uncomfortable there was no communication. They both were living their own life they were almost strangers in their own house and she had enough and the only thing she knew was make plans to leave. And of course Doug he doesn’t even have a clue but he thinks it’s her he doesn’t think that it has anything to do with him. And so they start having a little home group and studying about bitterroots and strongholds in their life and all of a sudden the light bulb goes on for Doug and he sees that his father was an alcoholic and used to beat him and was harsh. He had and let me ask you about this Doug you used the term explain what you mean by “You had emotionally divorced yourself from your father,” what do you mean by that?
Doug: I had completely rejected anything that my father stood for. I just made it in my own heart that I would not deal with him in any way he was a nonentity to me although we lived in the same home I would try not to even enter the house when he was there except that he would go to bed and I would come in. I was a sick little boy and not knowing that I sick because I was so angry in trying to punish my father not being around him.
Sid: And you separated that for us which was very helpful for us yesterday and you said “Your sin was not that your father was doing bad things he was doing bad things but it was the judgment of him rather than his sin.” And explain that you have to separate the two.
Doug: Whenever we have someone who wounds us or hurts us 99.9% of the time will find out that hurt people hurt people. And they’re not trying to hurt us because they want to they were raised that way, they have wounds that they don’t know how to deal with them and so they hurt us out of their own emotional instability things from their past. And what God does is allows us to forgive the person for what they do but if we don’t forgive them and we judge them and have bitterness towards them what we’ve done is entered into sin ourselves. And my sin separated me from the loving grace of the Father God and I became a very dysfunctional person. I didn’t think, I didn’t hear, to talk, I didn’t feel anything.
Sid: So in other words because you judged your father and divorced him emotionally you froze your emotions is that a fair statement.
Doug: Right I froze my emotions at a very young age and they did not develop until I was almost 50 years old.
Sid: But I have to tell you something Doug it sounds to simple I mean the light bulb goes on you realize that you made a bigger judgment against your father, you confess your sin. It sounds to me too easy.
Doug: Well you know what it really is easy if you see the light and you make a decision and you find out of how all of these different strongholds are built within yourself then you can go into each of these areas and search and say “God is there anything in me in this area that I need to confess as sin my own life?” But scripture even tells us that we can confess the sins of our forefathers and one of the ways that deep hurts and wounds and strongholds built within us is through generational sins.
Sid: Like what give me some examples.
Doug: Say my father was a womanizer he ran around with a lot of people and so was adultery and perhaps his father and perhaps his father did the same thing and his father did the same thing. And if there’s a sin of immorality had been in the family before you then there’s an iniquity that follows the bloodline to the 3rd and 4th generation. And in some types of sin even to the 10th and the 12th generation. So what we do we confess the sins of our forefathers so that the iniquity or the leaning toward sin in that area of our lives will be taken away and we can deal with our relationship without the iniquity or the leaning on the pressure of what our forefathers had done.
Sid: Jean tell me a bit about the anger that Doug expressed how did he express it at home.
Jean: Well sometimes he would be verbally abusive as I said Doug and I were counselors and we went to a meeting called CASA, which is Citizens Against Spouse Abuse, because we wanted to help those that were in that type of situation.
Sid: Did you realize at the time that you were in that situation?
Jean: No we went because we thought well mostly husbands would abuse wives and they showed us a cycle of physical abuse.
Sid: But it could be the other way around.
Jean: But then verbal abuse is also abuse they showed us a cycle of how someone gets angry and then they’re sorry and their nice for a season and then inside of them this volcano begins to build and then they explode again. And that’s what was happening with us it wasn’t physical but it was verbal. So when we came out of that meeting I said “Doug did you know that you are a verbal abuser?”
Sid: Doug what did you say?
Doug: I said “You’re crazy I’m not a verbal abuser how can you say I’m a verbal abuser and right now I started verbally abusing her” (Laughing).
Doug: That she would accuse me of such a thing I was such a defense for myself that she would say anything that would affect me or come against me I’d explode in her face and not really realizing that I was doing it as a self protection I could not stand someone coming against me because of the insecurity that was built within me because of these strongholds that I had had from childhood.
Sid: So when someone came against you how would you react?
Doug: I’d fight if it was a physical threat I would fight them physically, if it was emotional I learned to use my tongue and I would defeat them verbally. If it was to a point that I thought that I could not win then I would reject them before they could reject me.
Sid: Self protection.
Doug: Self protection I live with…
Sid: We all want to protect ourselves don’t we?
Doug: Yes we do and I had developed all of the means to protect myself and the little world that I had even to the point that I reject you before you can reject me.
Sid: But this was all subconscious and this was as Jean you were explaining it was sort of like stone upon stone to the point where I mean it’s an awful way to live you remember the way it used to be.
Jean: Hmm hm. And we used to talk about well we had to walk around on egg shells I heard a lot of woman say that you know we have to be quiet because Daddy’s mad today so he would ignore us for a couple of days or just be quiet and sit in his chair and then until he wanted his physical needs met and then he’d be lovey dovey and then we knew everything was alright. But walking around on egg shells…
Sid: The dad you’re talking about is your husband though.
Jean: Right the children’s daddy they would have to walk around on eggshells also. So we would learn when he’s angry we’d just keep quiet we knew that we couldn’t say anything.
Sid: But you said on yesterday’s broadcast “But look at the fruit, the bad fruit there’s got to be a root somewhere.” Tell me what some of that bad fruit might be.
Jean: Well there’s the disregard for the consequences of sin or for your actions if you don’t look at what’s going to happen down the road you just begin to do your own thing or addictions or compulsions. And say in my father’s line there was a leaning toward alcoholism out of the 5 children in his family there were 3 that were alcoholics and they were in the grandparent line so there was a generation of alcoholism in my family line. But my father didn’t go in that direction and his children didn’t go in that direction but these are some of the patterns. The dysfunctional family was in our pattern…
Sid: You know I hear that word a lot it seems to me that everyone is dysfunctional to a degree but what do you really mean when you say dysfunctional family?
Jean: It was a new word we learned too but that’s where we were don’t trust, and don’t talk and don’t feel. I was not allow to cry around the children so if I had feelings and I was really hurt I would have to stay up late at night after the children had gone to bed and just cry and pour my heart out to God and say “What am I going to do help me not to hate him and please help me learn how to forgive” and things like that.
Sid: But there’s a better way to live. But if let’s suppose you decide that you want to live that way and your husband did not and Doug did not is there anything that can be done for him?
Jean: Well prayer I prayed with my church and I began to pray and God finally sent someone into our lives to help us.
Doug: But you know though the fact is that if there’s a problem with me she cannot change me God and the Holy Spirit in me can change me.
Sid: In fact the more she tried to change you I bed the more you resisted.
Doug: The more I resisted the only hope we have is that through God we can change ourselves. We can pray that God will send His Holy Spirit to connect with our loved one our husband or wife or who the caregiver may be that has hurt us and wounded us so they will receive help. But don’t wait for them to receive help connect with God and get your own life straightened out.
Sid: So the person that is praying right now “Oh God change my husband.” It probably starts with “God what are you showing me?”
Jean: And there was a lot of spiritual pride in my family and you know Doug could feel that like I’m feeling like “Why doesn’t he get it straight and our family could be just like they should be and why doesn’t he do this and why doesn’t he read his Bible more.”
Sid: If he would just do that everything would be okay.
Jean: Right we’d be a perfect family a perfect Christian family.
Doug: But you don’t get to be perfect by just reading the scriptures.
Jean: But he could feel that coming from me.
Sid: Wait a minute you started something you have to finish that Doug.
Doug: Because the scriptures are very very important but just reading the scriptures alone will not change you you’ve got to allow the Holy Spirit to deal with you with what revelation you receive from the scriptures. Just reading them won’t do it you have to let the Holy Spirit teach you and submit to what He says.
Sid: Okay you found out the Holy Spirit lead you in dreams and circumstances; you found out about this bitterroot judgment that’s where the root came from of your father. You repented of this sin but and you said it’s a process, but what happens now if your wife says something and even though you’ve repented and it triggered something in you what do you do?
Doug: Well if it will trigger but what we’ve learned is that you ask the Holy Spirit to give you a moment a peace between the confrontation and your decision to respond to the confrontation. And God is a gentleman He will give you a moment to think about the decision.
Sid: Excuse me we’re out of time Mishpochah very interesting conversation…
Sid: I have in the studio Doug and Jean Jones they’re from Shiloh Place Ministries. Their teachers of a subject that too few Christians understand and every one of us must understand it. The subject is bitterroot strongholds and better yet understanding what they are and how to deal with them. We found out that Doug and Jean were married for 39 years and from Doug’s viewpoint 38½ of the 39 years were happy but Jean that was not from your viewpoint. In fact you indicated that things got so tense you were thinking of leaving.
Sid: And of course he was caught up in his job and so he was relatively happy but the children leave and all of a sudden you’ve got yourselves to look at. And how tense was it Jean?
Jean: There were several tense times raising the children especially as teenagers they wanted me to leave because my son was really the object of my husband’s anger most of the time.
Sid: Isn’t that interesting because Doug you father made you the object of his anger.
Doug: That’s right.
Sid: And is that how this bitterroot judgment works.
Doug: That’s exactly how it got started. I because of my father’s bitterness and anger and the way he treated us I judged him as being an unfit parent one that was full of anger, he wasn’t worthy of my respect.
Sid: But the truth is that was true that was a true judgment he was an alcoholic he was beating you mother it was true about what you were judging him.
Doug: No what I was doing I was judging him and God tells us we cannot judge the individual we can judge what they do as what they do as being wrong, we can’t judge them as being wrong of bad. That’s where we get into trouble we identify a person’s actions with who they really are and God makes the difference. He splits who you are from what you do. And when we start saying because a man does something that’s bad he is bad then we’ve taken on the responsibility of God. That’s him.
Sid: So are you saying to me because of that sin of judgment of your father carried on into your generation.
Doug: Yes it does scripture tells us clearly that the sins of the fathers be passed on to the 3rd and the 4th generation. And it says the same measure that you judge will be will come back on you and you’ll be judged on the same measure. And most of the cases people will do exactly opposite of what they judge their parent or the same thing. Very seldom has it become in between you do the opposite or your exactly like your father or whoever it was that you judged or you had a judgment against.
Sid: Now if Jean had succeeded in divorcing you and you hadn’t gotten help and you married again do you think you would have reproduced the same thing in the next marriage?
Doug: Statistically I think that I would have done the same thing without help we cannot help but do the same thing because we don’t know any better.
Sid: But you thought the problem was your wife not you.
Doug: Oh yeah definitely that’s one of the symptoms of this type of emotional distortion of our life. I live in what we call a very dysfunctional family we don’t trust we don’t talk, we don’t feel. And so if I leave one marriage and go to another all I’ve done is change places and changed faces. I’ve done nothing with the problem that I have in my life.
Sid: How in the world get this Mishpochah they’re under the same roof but in affect it’s so bad for Jean that she wants a divorce they were two strangers in the house. Is that the way you looked at it Jean.
Jean: This is true we did not communicate with one another especially on any level that Doug didn’t want to talk about.
Sid: What was your background?
Jean: I had a good background I used to say it was perfect but Doug decided otherwise (Laughing).
Jean: But I had a good loving father. My parents loved the Lord and they walked with the Lord. My dad was very loving and he was verbal and I was the most beautiful girl in the world and wonderful girl in the world. And he said the same thing about my mother she was the most wonderful lady in the world and he was very big on giving gifts and flowers and cards and he was sentimental and Doug was that way when we dated. So I thought I’d found my knight in shining armor but when we got married he was not like that. He would forget Birthday’s, I would remind him of Mother’s Day and he’d say “Well you’re not my Mother.” And you know I would cry because I just felt really rejected that he just really didn’t care about me. But Doug didn’t know how to care because his dad didn’t do those things and so he didn’t do those things. What happens is that after we get married our root structure begins to grow and those things that we don’t see when we’re dating and we’re in love well our root structure begins to grow and the things we argued about were not the things that were really the problems it was the roots that usually came from childhood.
Sid: How in the world did the two of you avoid divorce and get help?
Doug: After the 29 years the children left the home we met a guy named Jack Frost he came to our church like my wife said earlier and through our contact with him we started a full home fellowship our support group 4 couples that were having really deep problems in their marriage. Now I didn’t realize I had deep problems in our marriage I could see it in the other 3 couples that they had problems but I really didn’t see that I had a problem with my marriage. I saw that my wife had a little…
Sid: It’s kind of hard to correct something if you think it’s the other person.
Doug: That’s right but I was Christian and I knew that people needed help so I was going to join the group and sort of help Jack get some of the others out of their problems.
Sid: And first help your wife get the help.
Doug: Yeah my wife she needed help.
Doug: She was not an obedient wife like I wanted her.
Sid: And what were you looking for out of the group Jean?
Jean: Just help because I knew we were desperate and that we needed help. But let me tell you this at that time we were active in the church, we were active in the denominational church for years we taught Sunday school. Average people would look at us and say “Oh what a wonderful Christian family.” And we probably had an argument on the way to church and then we’d act nice at church and look very pious and then after that we’d might argue the rest but Sunday’s we’re always a bad day I don’t know what was stirred up but Sunday’s was always a bad day for anger. And then after we became in a Spirit Filled church we began we still counseled people, we counseled a lot of couples.
Sid: Your counseling couples on marriage
Sid: And the mean time you’re on AM and he’s on FM.
Lisa: And I asked Doug one time “Does it bother you that we’re telling people to do things that we’re not doing?” And he said “No the truth is the truth whether we’re doing it or not.” So…
Sid: Doug when did you first…when did the light bulb go on that the problem wasn’t her it was you.
Doug: It was in that group of 4 couples seeking help in their marriage and I finally found someone that I could trust for 30 some years almost 50 years really I was the person that couldn’t trust anyone to make decisions for myself. And I was so afraid of being rejected that I would carry a mask I would put a mask in front of me and I would let you see what I wanted you to see. Because I was afraid if you really knew me you wouldn’t love me you would reject me. So outwardly I put on a mask that said that I was something that I really wasn’t. And through the teachings of “The Bruises of Satan” by Carol Thompson that Jack was taking us through it just finally broke. But here’s someone who cares about me who has value in me and not in what I do but who I am. And the Lord just sort of opened my eyes that there is someone that you can trust that you can be real to this person you can share your hurts, you can share your fears with these group of people because they love you. I was afraid that I would not be loved if they really knew who I was.
Sid: And so you had to play a role.
Doug: I had to play a role and we…
Sid: They didn’t even know that you were doing it it was so the role was more real than the real you.
Doug: That’s right it was a subconscious thing that I had developed through habit structures through my life and I automatically played these roles to protect myself it was part of these strongholds that I had built around these areas of defense to protect myself so I could function in the way I thought that I should function.
Sid: Okay you begin to see that you have these problems how did you get rid of them?
Doug: Well we haven’t completely gotten rid of all of them but we’re on the way we have started the process and we know that…
Sid: What is the major one the one that broke the devils back on the stronghold in your marriage.
Doug: Mine was anger, I was so eaten up with anger and bitterness and it was at my father and I didn’t really realize that I hated my father the way that I did. I’m going to tell you a story for years I would wake up in the middle of the night and I would be in this almost a sweat a panic that I would in the dream that I had in the middle of the night I had murdered a person and I drove him to a hole in the ground and I knew exactly who that was from my childhood I knew where that place was in the woods. And I thought that I had really killed someone and so I would just forget it and I was a Christian at this time and I would forget the thing and I would get away from the dream and it would go for another 6 months or so and then the dream would come back and I would wake up just startled in the middle of the night seeing that same picture again I would kill this person and I was rolling him in the grave. And I tried to see who he was I could never see his face but I talked to Jack about this problem I talked to my wife and I talked to my pastor. And they through cancel showed me that Satan had used some things in my life to deceive me where I thought that I had killed a person physically. But what I had done was emotionally divorced and to kill my father emotionally. And there is where the root was that I had so much un-forgiveness against my father that I had emotionally divorced myself and murdered him in my heart and that anger was just festering in there.
Sid: What did you do about that?
Doug: Well I confessed it as sin in my life and what I had to do and what we all have to do is we cannot not deal with the other person’s sin against us but our reaction to what they do many times become sin in our own lives. When I could deal with my sin I got relief to stop blaming someone else. It was always my wife’s fault for me getting angry I never get angry…
Sid: Jean I have to ask you this question Doug said you’re on your way and I understood what he meant by that meaning as humans we’re being more and more conformed into Messiah’s image. But you’re the wife you were about ready to leave him, what difference is there in your marriage now?
Jean: Oh all of the difference in the world that anger the root has been dealt with. Now that’s not saying that Doug doesn’t get angry anymore but when you deal with the roots and that’s one of the main nuggets of this teaching is that bad fruit bad root. So you may go for years thinking “I don’t have anything wrong with me but I had a good family but if there’s bad fruit in your life like anger and addictions then there’s a root.
Sid: Let’s talk a little bit about that on tomorrows broadcast.
Sid: I have a pleasant surprise my guests are in the studio normally…you don’t even know this but normally they’re on the telephone oh I tell you most of the time. But this case I have Doug and Jean Jones from Shiloh Place Ministries in the studio. I was recently at a seminar Jack Frost Conference which they taught on a subject that too few believers even know exist let alone understand. It’s called “Exposing Bitterroot Strongholds.” Jean what are bitterroots and what are strongholds involving bitterroots?
Jean: Well strongholds are really a collection of thoughts that are lies against what God has revealed about Himself. It’s like you’ve seen a fortress over in Europe…
Jean: We’ve seen fortresses and castles and they have these big stones that are built one upon the other and that’s what we do inside of us when we’re brought up with lies like “You can’t do anything right,” or “Why do you act so stupid or why are you so stupid or you’re never going to amount to anything” just lies and things that we hear.
Sid: But but when you get born again we read the word and we know better and most Christians are walking around with these wounds how come?
Jean: That’s right because man is spirit, soul and body and when we’re born again our spirit is made new and that’s who we are in Christ. But it says “We have to bring every thought into subjection to the Lord Jesus.” And so we still have and we still act in the flesh just like Paul said “The things I want to do I don’t do and the things I don’t want to do I do.” Because we still have the flesh to bring into control.
Sid: Now you were telling me before we went on the air…you were telling me about a pastor that took this seminar tell me a bit about him.
Jean: This pastor he came for ministry and he had been to 4 or 5 different churches and he would have a nice honeymoon period after he’d get to the church and he really loved the Lord and God’s people but after he’d been there a couple of years they would begin to argue and he had left these 4 or 5 churches.
Sid: It was like the same pattern was happening and he didn’t know why.
Jean: The same pattern in his life and so he was just real discouraged and really hurt. And he asked “What can I do and what’s wrong?” And you know we began to blame-shift at those people but after the pattern occurs over and over we begin to realize that the pattern may be inside of us. So the question was asked “Has anyone in your life ever treated you this way?” And he said “Well yes my dad.” And he said “My dad was a leader in the church but my mother had an affair before I was born and he thought that I was the product of that affair.”
Jean: And so he treated me harshly and he treated the other children the family nicely and I just felt so different and I was always so harshly by my father and he was demeaning to me. And so that’s….
Sid: You would think that he would do the opposite in his church because he had such abuse that he would go around bending over backwards loving people.
Jean: Hmm hm. You would but there was an expectancy in him that people and especially males are going to treat me harshly. And after awhile that’s what happened that was the pattern and he expected inside of himself that people really don’t like me and they really are going to demean me and treat me that way.
Sid: Well Doug and by the way he was set free from this teaching that we’ll be making available. Doug Jones I know this but most people… let’s start out with how long have you been married?
Doug: We’ve been married for 39 years. And in my life I’ve been happily married for probably 30 and ½ of those years.
Sid: And did you get that Mishpochah he’s been married for 39 years and he’s been happily married for 30…
Doug: Thirty and ½ years at least?
Doug: Because I was living in a vacuum (Snicker). And I did not know of the problems that I was creating myself in my marriage. I was in such a manipulator a controller what we call a dim person. I was dominating, intimidating, and manipulating. My whole life was built around control and as long as I was controlling my family I thought I was doing alright I was happy as long as I was in charge and in control.
Sid: Tell me a bit about your background.
Doug: My background was I was raised by a father who worked hard worked 2 jobs provided for the family but he was a hurt and wounded man. He was a good man but as a child I didn’t recognize him as a good man I saw him as a harsh bitter person full of anger, full of frustration and corporal punishment was really something I experienced everyday for about 4 years. I had a beating every day and I can rationalize that I deserved it because I was so rebellious. He would say cut the grass at 4:00 I’d wait until 4:30 to cut it just out of spite and I’d get a whipping everyday I’d do something like that just out of rebellion against the authority. Because when I was a young boy maybe 6 to 8 years old my father came home in the middle of the night one time and he beat my mother. I was in the bedroom next to their room and I could literally hear his fist hitting her flesh upside the head and it destroyed me emotionally I was so full of anger and bitterness I wanted to kill my father. I even tried as a little boy I’d go home and pick the shotgun that was over the door and go up and I wanted to kill my father but I could not reach the gun so obviously I could not do what I wanted to do physically. But emotionally as I grew older I did kill my father. I emotionally divorced my father and because of the way he treated my mother and the way that he treated me as a young child I could not handle that. I could not trust the authority that was over me because they were always bitter and overbearing and many times what I considered the wrong choices. And in doing so to protect myself I began to build these walls these strong holds around me so I would be in control. And if anything had to be done I’d be the one that would make the decision I would let my parents make decisions for me and it affect me drastically in my later life in my business and my marriage because I had to be right. I had to be in charge in control because of these judgments I judged my father for being harsh and bitter and he beat my mother. And I thought I was okay because I never beat my wife physically what I did I beat her verbally I just completely annihilated her with my tongue.
Sid: Now you were born again at the time or not?
Doug: I got born again at age 18 before I got married.
Sid: So why did you do this if you were born again?
Doug: Well like my wife said when I was born again I was born again and the scripture clearly tells us we are spirit and we worship God in Spirit and truth but what we struggle against is our flesh and our soul and our mind, will and our emotions. My being my real person was born again when I accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior but I struggled with my flesh and my soul which was not redeemed. Paul tells us that we have to…now it’s a constant battle…
Sid: Did you realize that you were struggling or did you think your problem was your wife?
Doug: No I didn’t think…I was struggling but I was struggling against my wife, against my job and against everyone else was wrong but not me.
Sid: Jean you lived it did you think that you were the person that was doing wrong and you deserved what was going on. What was going on inside of you?
Jean: No I didn’t at first but Doug and I went together 4 years and we went together 2 years in high school and 2 years in college and then we got married. The Doug I knew and dated was not the Doug I married.
Sid: Hmm (Laughing).
Jean: And now we know that when we say “I do” things change and that’s what happened with us his personality changed and I saw the angry person that he was.
Sid: What did you do about it?
Jean: Well I was making plans in my mind to leave.
Doug: But she cried a lot.
Jean: The first 2 years I didn’t cry as much as later but we used to play a lot of bridge together in college and we played and before we did real well together but after we were married it was like everything was my fault we got so we couldn’t even play games together because there was such competition and such anger in him and I was just making plans to leave. So we both had a desire to help people and the Peace Corp was new at that time and so in a whim we filled out an application for the Peace Corp and we were accepted.
Sid: So exported your problems (Laughing).
Jean: Well now we went into the Peace Corp training and that’s where I got pregnant and they sent us home and so we never got to go to Honduras.
Doug: So we flunked out on birth control.
Sid: (Laughing) You know what you’re describing you’re doing kind of light now but it’s a heavy thing I mean I don’t want to make you do this but if you went back to the situation you were in. I mean there are people listening to us right now that are so relating and they don’t know what to do. And in fact I think most people do is that they end up blaming themselves not recognizing that the problems are deeper than themselves its…did you blame yourself at all?
Jean: As we came back from the Peace Corp Doug went into corporate America and he got a good job he began to climb the corporate ladder and I began to get involved with my children and so we went through many married years with living separate lives. He was busy with the corporation I was busy with the children. He was a good father and went to all of their activities but he and I did not relate things that were involved to us until the children left for college. And then we were face to face and I thought all of these years I heard that I was the problem and I was really beaten down after that.
Doug: And most of those years I really thought that my wife was the problem.
Sid: Did you want a divorce?
Sid: She wanted one but you?
Doug: Divorce never entered my mind because I was content I loved the job and I was sort of married to my job and I had a place to come home at night that took care of my physical needs, had my laundry done, had my food cooked.
Sid: You realize your describing most marriages today you know that don’t you.
Doug: Yeah I do.
Sid: And that’s why l out of 2 marriages ends up in divorce even in the church.
Doug: That’s right and I was going to say even in the church the statistics are the same.
Sid: Mishpochah unfortunately we’re out of time but I believe that we’re touching on very very important nerves if not you you know someone that has problems along these lines…
Sid: And oh do I have a Jewish man that’s red hot for the Messiah. He was a star acrobatic act in the Moscow circus, as a matter of fact in Odessa he won the national championship for what is called acro-gymnastics. It’s a combination of acrobatics and gymnastics. But Igor Ashkinaszi what was it like in the 50’s and 60’s in Odessa, Ukraine. Both of your parents were doctors and both of your parents were Jewish, what was like like?
Igor: Well that’s true my both parents are doctors and Jewish people and the life was in Ukraine at that time was for a Jewish person… it was just right after the war. And actually anti-Semitism in Ukraine was just flourishing and it really took off after the war, after World War II.
Sid: What did you know about Judaism because weren’t you raised under atheism?
Igor: I was raised as an atheist yes even though all of my relatives on my mother and father’s side are Jewish. And even some rabbis were there before the revolution my great great grandfather was a rabbi and so forth on my mother’s side. But I knew very little about. The first time in my life I heard about Jewishness is when I was called a kike. And or it was like a diminishing term for the Jewish person for a Jewish person. And I was about 5 years old and so I began to begin to call that friend of mine also a kike when we had a fight or he called me a kike and I called him back. And his parent got very upset and so his mother came to my mother and she said that your son calls my son a kike. And at that time my mother has given me a spanking because she said “You should not call him.” Well I said “Listen you have to understand that you have to understand that you are a kike he is not so you don’t do that to him anymore.” And that was a first time I was introduced to my nationality. And then I was of course asking the question and I was 5 years old and I heard nationality who I was from actually curse words the first time.
Sid: Did you observe the Biblical festivals?
Igor: We did not observe any Biblical festivals or anything religious. The first time I heard about from my Grandmother when I was maybe about 8 years old because they secretly obtained matzah. And she brought it home at night it was a stormy night it was a snow storm and she brought it in a bag and I asked what it was and they said “matzah” and I had asked “Why?” “Because we have Passover.”
Sid: So did you hear the story about Moses and going to through the Red Sea as though it was dry land?
Igor: No I didn’t not at that time but once my grandmother…I was ill I had this cold at home and my grandmother told me that it was the menace of cold weather and we didn’t come from such a cold climate as Russia. And so I said “Where did we come from?” And she said “Well we come from… she said “Well we come from a place and she said that Moses led us through the desert.”That was the first time and the last time I ever heard from my parents about Moses.
Sid: Well let me ask you what is it like being a Star in a Moscow circus? Is that a high honor in that part of the world is that a sort of like a football star in the United States?
Igor: To a degree it is similar but they exalt you a little bit less there in the Soviet Union. But I was first Soviet National Champion about a month of schools of highest athletic achievement and then it’s kind of easy to make the bridge into the circus. And so they would invite they would invite me into the circus and I immediately accepted into a Star Acrobatic Act which was a very beautiful act and was considered a 4 or 5 people and 4 men and a girl. And we just I did what I know best was catching people when they are flying in the air and throwing them around I’d say (Laughing) it is a circus.
Sid: But one day one of your partners said to you a horrible thing they called you a Jewish pig?
Igor: Yes that is actually why I left Soviet Union I was successful as you know in the Soviet Union and my life was really almost out of the league of anti-Semitism because I was kind of champion. You know people respect you and nobody every said a word to me for a long long time not like it was in the childhood stages or even the universities first years in the university. But this was a long time that I had ever heard that and suddenly my partner called me a dirty Jew in a drunken stupor. And when he said this to me he screamed actually among a lot of people and I felt extremely hurt I felt so hurt I don’t’ remember when I was so hurt. Because it was somebody that I liked and respected till that point and looked up to he was an older man. And we started to fight but as we fought bitterly suddenly something triggered in my heart a peace and I stopped. And I thought to myself “What am I doing in this country I have to leave.” It was just the days when the first Jewish people began to openly talk it each other we have to leave to go to America or go to Israel it is starting to begin the doors are start opening.
Sid: So you had an aunt in Israel who gave you an invitation and you applied to go but it wasn’t so easy to get out at that time. What kind of persecution did you go through?
Igor: Well at the time that I was applied in 1972 there was all kinds of snags to somebody who leave Soviet Union. For example, I had to get a good recommendation from your work and that was difficult it was almost impossible to get we have to fight for their back I spent 6 months just begging my supervisor to write me a good letter. And just the negative they would not accept in the police you have to be good. And usually they would not accept that was done on purpose at that time so they knew that supervisors would not want to write us a good letter become we have become an enemy of the country. And so I had a difficult time receiving that letter but finally I did receive that letter as we were leaving the Soviet Union we were given 24 days to leave the country. And the last days my grandparents at the station was stripped bare and my mother was I didn’t know why they selected my 80 year old grandparents and that’s who were leaving Soviet Union, my mother, my grandmother and my grandfather so they checked everything everywhere.
Sid: Did the KGB make it difficult for you before you were leaving?
Igor: Every one of us had to quit our work our job so we could not get any money and we did not know when we were leaving the Soviet Union.
Sid: Why did you have to quit your job?
Igor: Because they fire you because when I applied to go to Israel it implies to them the different countries had no diplomatic relationship we become like the enemies of the state at that time. And throughout all the ways throughout all the way through 80’s I think they cancel your job you can no longer go back to work. And so you become an enemy of the state an you cannot go back to work but they demand a good recommendation from your boss. Now imagine this Sid the situation and no boss, no supervisor rather, wanted to give a good recommendation to a person like that. And so it becomes a tension and the time is nothing, the money is scarce and every week I have to report to KGB office and every week a KGB officer will say you are not going anywhere we are not letting you out. And I have to say “I am going” and they’d say “Withdraw your papers you’re hurting your family yourself we gave you an education we made you champion and you’re leaving us you are not going anywhere you’re only going possibly to jail.” And I have to persist in that again and again and again until it was said “We don’t even want citizenship in Russia anymore and just take our passports just do with them whatever you want. You either letting us go or we’re no longer citizens here do whatever you want to do with us.”
Sid: How did it feel when you finally were leaving?
Igor: Suddenly we received permission out of nowhere out of nowhere we received a permission a year and a half later after I made my request. And we were given 24 days I felt very exuberant, very extremely happy but yet there was a concern inside too because I was actually going no knowing where. Going there not knowing where I was not leaving Russia because I knew America was great or I knew that Israel was great I was leaving Russia because I felt Russia was bad to me.
Sid: Igor our time is up we’ll pick up right here this is such a supernatural experience you’re about ready to hear the Jews require a sign.
Sid: I’ve got a Jewish man on the telephone oh is he red hot for the Messiah he’s come from such a good Orthodox traditional home. His whole life he’s spent in Yeshiva that’s a Jewish education he even studied in Yeshiva in Israel. He graduated from Yeshiva University in the United States and he became the better known motivational speakers in the world he spoke before stadiums with 80,000 people. He had a bestselling book, he had a wonderful home in Hawaii everything was going wonderful and one day his wife who was raised in a Christian home said to him “Peter we should thank Jesus for all of our blessings.” And he told her “You shouldn’t thank Jesus you should thank me Peter!” because he was into a religion of humanism at this point of “I can do anything.” And his life fell apart and he was offered a job in the United States he was in Hawaii at the time and offered a job in the United States at a high-tech marketing company. He made more money than anyone could ever spend in a lifetime and it would be quick. But he found out very quickly that this company wasn’t what it was reported to be and he withdrew but he found out that the Federal Trade Commission had sued him an $85 million lawsuit. You move from his great mansion in Hawaii to a 2 bedroom apartment in Dallas, Texas. The legal fees took away everything. At that point did you connect when you said “Don’t thank Jesus thank me that had something to do with the plug being pulled Peter?
Peter: Oh definitely not, not at the beginning I just thought “This is something that I’ll be able to take care of and this will go away pretty quickly and I’ll deal with it.”
Sid: At what point did you realize that you bumped into your first crisis that all of your books and all of your speaking all of your religion of humanism could not help.
Peter: Well you know it’s interesting that at some point and I can’t tell you exactly when it was a couple of months into it and remember I’d been preaching around the world positive thinking. You know this is something I could handle I teach this stuff. What I realized is the difference between positive thinking and faith positive thinking hits the wall when you’re sued for $85 million by the government (Laughing) that’s when I realized. And I hit a point Sid where this is not like me at all where I reached a point of total desperation. My reputation was gone and of course I’m fast forwarding this is a couple of months the money’s gone, my reputations gone, the work is gone and I’m inconsolable inconsolable. My wife never stopped having faith, she never doubted for a minute that everything would be okay, but my reaction to her positiveness for a lack of a better word was even more desperation and even more anger and even more frustration. Because I just didn’t get it I couldn’t image why somebody would be positive in this situation.
Sid: But you taught this your whole Peter!
Peter: I know that’s what my wife used to say you know (Laughing.)
Sid: Positive thinking is wonderful until you bump into your first crisis.
Peter: Yeah and it can even get you though some of them but it couldn’t get me though this one and that’s for sure.
Sid: Okay there’s a 2 week period where you could not sleep.
Peter: Yeah and now literally for 2 straight weeks I could not sleep. And so now on top of the mental, the psychological trauma now physically my body is turning into a wreck which of course compounds the mental aspects. I am a complete and total wreck.
Sid: I mean you literally I’ve read about this as an adult you would curl up in a fetal position and just weep.
Peter: Yup there was no way to consol me I didn’t see a way out.
Sid: What about suicide?
Peter: Well I started having those thoughts that now that I’ve spoken with so many people I’ve seen that a lot of men have had them at some point and I start realizing, not thinking, but knowing that I’m worth more to my family dead than I am alive. But of course there’s a challenge with that they couldn’t collect the insurance money if it’s a suicide.
Sid: You were in a real impossible situation. Imagine that Mishpochah owing $85 million being no way of getting out. And not sleeping how could a human even do that you couldn’t sleep for about 2 weeks?
Peter: Yeah yeah it was a time of my life and I could not have ever anticipated any of this happening.
Sid: Tell me your worst night?
Peter: Well the worst night was really the night before the last. I reached what I now consider a beautiful day it was that point it’s over tomorrow. Total and complete despair with no way out I had already contemplated I had creatively imagined a way where I could make it look natural so that my family would be able to live well. And I knew that there was no tomorrow, I just knew it. And I don’t know Sid I don’t know to this day I don’t know what cause me to do what I’m about to tell you I did perhaps it was the 3 years of constant prayers by my wife and her family, but when I knew that there was no tomorrow feeling absolutely torn no way out before bed I knew that if I didn’t sleep this night it was over in the morning I knew it. But I got down on my knees and until this day I never got down on my knees Jews don’t do that but I got down on my knees and I said “Jesus if You’re real now’s the time to show me because I need help and there’s not going to be a tomorrow.” And amazing thing Sid isn’t just that I slept through the night which I did which was a miracle in itself but the real amazing thing was that I woke up knowing it was fine. Knowing it was all going to be over that my life was no longer my own I didn’t have to carry this burden…
Sid: But wait wait you still owe that money!
Peter: Supernaturally I didn’t have to worry about it I gave it up it did not matter it just didn’t matter. All of a sudden I had a peace in me that was way beyond my natural circumstances. I had a peace in me that was not affected by what was going on me not in this world.
Sid: Why did you pray to Jesus?
Peter: That’s a great question I have to answer it by saying it was:
- Out of desperation, but
- It was all of those people who had been praying for me.
Sid: Okay wonderful you have all of this wonderful shalom, this wonderful peace, but you still owe $85 million.
Peter: Yeah but and it didn’t really make sense to anybody around me how I could be so peaceful but I just knew and I did not worry about it. And I’ll fast forward to towards the end of the story.
Peter: And now I’m about ready to have my deposition we get in there they question me the Federal Trade Commission attorney’s question me for 8 solid hours. I’m fine there’s no anxiety what so ever the day after the deposition they call my attorneys and say “Listen we’re willing to settle the case for zero dollars.” I remember I was in the Phoenix airport when I got the call from my attorney’s and right then I just wanted to drop on the floor and just “Thank you God!” I’d never imaged the direct hand of God on my life like it was then because there’s no natural explanation.
Sid: You know the missing thing in the Yeshiva was Jesus.
Peter: That’s exactly right and now I know it and now I realize it like my family like everything with all of the different things that have gone wrong naturally we had never been closer. We’ve never had more joy in our lives than we do now but it gets better every day.
Sid: But you were raised your whole life not to believe Jesus is the Messiah. You explain that reaction when your wife said “Let’s thank Jesus for our blessings.” How could you make such a switch?
Peter: Obviously I couldn’t do it by myself. It was not something that I would make a conscious decision and emotionally I just switch. It was just this beautiful all-encompassing knowing, just knowing. Then I was still a challenge that I could be Jew and still be a committed Jew and accept Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior. Now that’s something I worked out and loved tremendously.
Sid: You know Peter in my opinion and I believe that the Spirit of God and the word of God says this there’s going to be such an outpouring of God’s Spirit on Jewish people….
Sid: So many Orthodox Jews are having revelations of the Messiah. I’ve got a Jewish man on the telephone I’m speaking to him at his home in Dallas, Texas his name is Peter Hirsch. He spent his whole life in traditional Orthodox Judaism. He went to a Yeshiva that’s a religious school his whole life. He even ended up in Israel in a Yeshiva. He even went to a Jewish law school. Peter Hirsch paint me a picture of the best financial moment and your lifestyle and your life.
Peter: Sid (Laughing) that’s really easy for me to do because it wasn’t too long ago life was grand. If you can picture this my wife and I were living in a 4000 square foot home on the beaches of Kauai just to give you a picture of what that looked like my office was in my home and my office over looked through the glass doors that led out to the 90’ balcony it over looked both the ocean and the mountains of Kauai just absolutely beautiful. A couple of times a month I would travel give a talk on success on motivation on sales training to a generally a Fortune 500 or a direct sales company. Taking in more money I had ever thought possible and I was a lawyer before that. So life was just grand financially.
Sid: What’s the largest audience you spoke before?
Peter: That was easy and it was a few times it was about 80 to 85,000 people.
Sid: Your best month your best money you were making a month?
Peter: The best month was $100,000 a month.
Sid: I would say you were doing very very well, but one day your wife Diana it was one evening she said to you “We should thank Jesus for all of our blessings.” What happened inside of Peter Hirsch?
Peter: Well that did not sit well and the scene was perfect. It was such a glorious late afternoon early evening was sitting on the deck holding hands watching the sunset and she whispers to me Sweetie we’re so blessed you really need to thank Jesus. And you could just imagine how quickly her hand dropped from mine it was more of a throwing action then I let go.
Sid: Well you loved this woman why would you react like that?
Peter: You know what inside there was no way in my mind a Jew could ever thank Jesus.
Sid: Now your wife was raised Christian?
Peter: My wife was raised Christian.
Sid: And that didn’t bother you when you got married?
Peter: You knew it did but she knew this is an area you just don’t budge with me. I had left traditional Judaism but there is something called the “Pinto of Yid,” I still had the Jewish spark in me that nothing could get rid of. And my wife had a love for Judaism and all of that and it was fine as long as she didn’t bring up Jesus.
Sid: Alright she brought it up what emotions describe to me what happened inside of you when she said “We should thank Jesus for all of our blessings?”
Peter: More than anything I was furious I was furious I saw her giving credit to an invisible false false god false prophet for all of my work. And I actually said that to her I was so angry and I just said “Sweetie!” in a very harsh tone I said “Not only shouldn’t you thank Jesus but you should thank me because I’m the one that worked my butt off for all of this.”
Sid: In retrospect Mishpochah when he made that statement everything in his life began to fall apart. But before we even get there Peter I want of find out with such a wonderful traditional Orthodox Jewish background being in Yeshiva all of these years even in this school of higher education Jewish school of higher education in Israel Yeshiva what caused you to take a step back from the Orthodox Jewish lifestyle?
Peter: It’s a good question and I’ve asked myself many times because it wasn’t that I was rebellious as much as I was just unsatisfied. You know I had done all of the rituals I had grown up doing all of the rituals and I still respect them it’s just something inside me was completely unfulfilled. So I rested and said “There has just got to be something more.”
Sid: Now did your parents want you to be a Rabbi?
Peter: Yeah and it was somewhat expected that I would I had gone for Yeshiva training my whole life and I’d gone to Israel for a number of years and I was certainly headed in that direction. But there was something in me that it became more routine, if I can put it this way there was no passion in it.
Sid: Now speaking of passion you actually developed a passion for a New Age Humanistic type of teaching tell me about that.
Peter: Yeah and I have no idea where this came from but I became after I left law school I had no passion for the practice of law either. For many years about 8 years after that I became a sales trainer, motional speaker, speaking on and I would never use the word humanism I would never use the words New Age but it was those types of concepts that I would teach to audiences all around the world not just the country but around the world. Concepts that whatever you want you can get it’s all within you can set the goals, you can focus, you will literally declare when you set a goal your mind will act like heat seeking missile and instead of saying “Thy will be done” you will be declaring “My will be done.” That was the kind of thing that I taught all around the world.
Sid: So that was new reaction that came out of your mouth when your wife said “Let’s thank Jesus for all of our blessings.”
Peter: Oh at that point I was very consistent.
Sid: But after that your life it just changed it radically changed tell me about it.
Peter: Radical radical change. What happened was my wife was very smart that after I said “Don’t thank Jesus!” she just stepped back to avoid the lightning.” Well the lightning didn’t come right away it came about a week later at the advice of my intuition which is not a word that I use much anymore and the advice of friends I was offered a position in Dallas, a 5 year old company was being purchased by new investors. It was…they were turning it into a .com taking it public and I was going to be able to retire with more money than my grandchildren needed and I was only 33 years old. It seemed like just an incredible deal…
Sid: I mean you were going to do what you were teaching people all over the world that they could accomplish these great goals you were about ready to actually prove it.
Peter: Absolutely I mean this was this was it.
Sid: Okay at that time you had a bestselling book on success.
Peter: Hm hm.
Sid: How many copies did that book sell?
Peter: About a half million copies in many languages.
Sid: And you’re about ready to become have more money that anyone deserves or could even spend in a life time this is a big bonanza, but when did you realize it might not be as good as it looks?
Peter: Well I was there for about 3 or 4 months and I see that this not clean that this is not kosher the new owners the new investors are not acting in any way that I would want to be associated with. It’s very simple I made a mistake I take the responsibility and I leave I resign. I’m there 3 to 4 months my integrity in tact I leave big deal. In fact it was a very big deal because the Federal Trade Commission, the FTC, powerful branch of the US Government sues the owners some of the new people, some old employees and they name me. Now this stunned me.
Sid: But you’re out why should they come after you?
Peter: That’s a good question for this day we don’t have an answer to that I don’t know. But I’ll tell you…
Sid: But you have lots of money so you could hire good attorneys.
Peter: There was no question, but you know what when you’re sued for $85 million.
Sid: Eighty-five million dollars?!
Peter: Eighty-five million dollars at some point that lots of money can go very quickly.
Sid: Peter hold that thought we’ll pick up right here on tomorrow….
SID: Hello. Sid Roth here. Welcome to my world where it’s naturally supernatural. My guest says that the veil between Heaven and Earth is getting thinner. That’s why we’re hearing of so many people having visitations to Heaven, so many people seeing the invisible world, seeing angels, so many people being able to understand the invisible world. And she says she can teach you to see into this invisible realm. Anyone interested? Me, too. You know, as I read the Tanakh, the Jewish Scriptures, I see a term there called “seer” and it’s always intrigued me no end. Ana, you are a New Covenant seer. Explain what a seer is exactly.
ANA: So a seer, that term, it’s not a wackado term. It’s been in the Bible, it’s been there for all times. But a seer is somebody that hears from the Lord, they get wisdom from the Lord primarily through the gift of sight and they prophesy or discern into a situation with that gift.
SID: Now you see things sometimes over people. Give me an example of where you saw something over a person and it resulted in them being helped.
ANA: Sure. Often, because I work in healing ministry a lot, so sometimes when I’m praying for someone or someone comes for a prayer I will see an area of their body highlighted. Like one time I was praying for this lady and I saw her shoulder and it was highlighted in a different color. It just looked purple. And she did not actually ask me for a prayer for that. But I said, “Hey, is your shoulder hurting? What’s going on with your shoulder?” And she said, “Yes, it is hurting.” So I prayed for, our team and myself, prayed for this lady. And as we were praying I could see the presence of the Lord come over her shoulder and I could see a literal color change. And I said, “Well what’s going on now because your shoulder looks better. What’s going on?”
SID: You have an unfair advantage over the devil. That’s pretty cool. I like that. Do you ever see words over people?
ANA: Yes. So I will see words also where sometimes sickness gets locked in our body because we’ve got hurt or wounds, or other things.
ANA: Unforgiveness, bitterness, things that we hold on to. So sometimes I might see the word, like “unforgiveness” or “bitterness” over someone and I’ll know that’s the root, that’s where the enemy has got them, that’s why sickness is on them. So we’ll go after that. We’ll pray together, is there something going on in your life where you can’t forgive somebody. And through that then they get healed as I’ll walk them through that forgiving that person. Then they receive healing.
SID: When was the first time you could remember seeing in the invisible world?
ANA: When I was five years old, I was playing in my room and an angel walked in.
SID: Were you afraid?
ANA: I wasn’t.
ANA: Isn’t that weird? You would think stranger, danger, I would be scared. But it wasn’t like. It was like my best friend just walked in the room, and he was really warm and friendly. And we played together, and he told me his name was Timothy. I asked him, “What’s your name?” Kids just ask whatever they want. So I said, “What’s your name?” He said Timothy. He told me he’s my guardian angel and I asked him, “Can I touch your wings?” He said, “Sure.” So I got to touch his wings.
SID: What does his wings feel like? I’ve never touched an angel’s wings.
ANA: It was really gentle, like soft, but also very firm and strong.
SID: Tell me about the next time you saw an angel.
ANA: I was a missionary in Brazil and I was working in the drug trafficking slums, and I had gone with a bunch of my friends went to our other friend’s house that evening. So I was very naïve, very ambitious, but very naïve, and I thought, I’m going to go walk home on my own. And I hadn’t been in the country very long, and I didn’t speak Portuguese at the time. So I started walking. I got completely lost. Very quickly, I was lost. It was very scary. I’m not going to lie. It was very scary because all around me I could see drug traffickers.
SID: You were in a bad area of town.
ANA: I was in bad area. I was in a slum and I could see men carrying guns and there was also children, little boys like seven years old carrying guns. And they were approaching me. It’s like, you don’t belong here, and they were coming closer and closer, and closer. So little woman of faith that I am here, I got down on my knees and I just started crying, and I said, “God, I need your help. I need your help. I am so stupid and naïve to do this on my own, and I am lost. I need help and I need help now.” My life was really in danger. And I heard the Lord’s voice and he just said, “Ana, look up.” So I looked up, looked down. The blocks go like a zig-zag, and I looked down the block and I saw an angel, and he was staring at the end of the block, and waved, picked a flower and dropped it, and then took off. So it didn’t take me a second to think what I was going to do. I didn’t have another option. So I just went, I’m going to get that flower, chase that angel. So I ran to the end of the block, picked up the flower and then looked down the next block, and there he was at the very next block, and he did the same thing. So I ran to the next block, picked up the flower, and this kept going on and on, and on. It was like an hour and a half of just zig-zagging through, until the very last flower he dropped was at my doorstep, and I was back home.
SID: And Ana told me she actually pressed one of the flowers to always remember it, and you have it right there.
ANA: I did. I brought it.
SID: Can I see it?
ANA: Yes. It even says the day I was lost and I followed an angel home. I brought it.
SID: Wow! That is neat. You’ll always remember this and you’ll always remember not to walk in a country where you don’t speak one word, alone, in the drug traffic area. When we come back, I want Ana to pray for you to have your eyes opened to see angels. Be right back.
SID: Okay Karen. You’re ready for the ministry of your life, what you’re created for. I mean the Israeli army wanted you to do the same thing you did in Jericho. You get back to your destiny, you’re in Jerusalem, you’re managing these Palestinian camps and then the persecution gets beyond the pale. They literally try to kill her. Tell me about that day.
KAREN: Well that was very recent. A year ago. They surrounded our church, they gassed us, they threw rocks through the window. Nine people got hurt.
SID: This was the Palestinian militants?
KAREN: Yes in Jerusalem. Arab/Israelis and some of the Palestinian militants from the West Bank. There was a weapons specialist that used to work for President Arafat. There was another few of the men that had been arrested by the Israeli army for previous incidents. They wanted my building to make a mosque and they just were relentless. I’m talking about 4-1/2 months of serious persecution where I couldn’t even step outside without them saying, ‘We’re going to kill you.”
SID: Okay so you’re in your church and they come up to you. Was it from behind? What did they do?
KAREN: One morning I go outside and I’m feeling that God’s going to give me a breakthrough and I’m waving a flag that says Yeshua. Sunday morning, 10 o’clock, waiting for our service to start. People are coming in and as I was walking towards our double doors behind me the men charged me and just hit me from behind and fractured my wrist. I flipped into the air, my knee was cracked. I mean I was bleeding in the face. I don’t remember exactly all that happened. All I remember is the initial impact.
SID: And you told me you left your body.
KAREN: Oh for sure. I laid on the ground and I left my body. I couldn’t breathe and all of a sudden I’m just in the air with Jesus. I’m just in the air with Jesus. I’m saying to the Lord and I feel the Lord had put this in my heart because afterwards I thought it was a strange thing to be praying about when there was no life in my body laying there in front of the church, but I began to tell the Lord, “Lord they’re laughing at you, they’re blaspheming you.” I said, “Your enemies are mocking you.” I said, “I have no breath, I’m laying there like a piece of flesh.” And it was a woman, an Israeli, came out of the church, Kathy. She began to pray in tongues and then I heard a heavenly choir. I just hear this angel singing and it was just so beautiful and next thing I know it was like a lighting bolt hit me, the breath of God comes back in me and I’m on my feet. I really felt like I shot into the air but I’m standing on the earth and I tell my secretary, “Give me the flag.” I didn’t even know my wrist was fractured and I began to wave the flag wildly. They were watching and I was just waving this flag in front of their cameras just screaming, “Jesus! Jesus! Jesus!”
SID: But then a group of Chinese came to Israel and they had these big drums. How long did they play these drums?
KAREN: 72 hours.
SID: And at the end of 72 hours, and this wasn’t just drums. This was spiritual warfare at the highest level. What happened at the end of 72 hours?
KAREN: Well it was so wonderful because when they arrived they said, “Pastor Karen we know how to fight the dragon.” They just beat those drums for three days and prophesied and I felt it in the spirit. I just all of a sudden felt a flood of peace and I knew the stronghold had fallen.
SID: I believe that if you pray for people right now to be drenched in the love of God, it’s going to change your life. I believe that. Pray.
KAREN: Holy and righteous Father, we just thank you. We boldly come to the throne of grace and Lord we come for all of these out here that are so thirsty God. Lord, these that are out there that have never really known love God. Those that just need this unconditional love, to drench them, to pour over them, to transform their lives. Lord there’s so many out there God and I just ask God, your mercy triumphs judgment God. I ask that you just breakthrough today God and drench those that are out there God. They’ve waited so long for you God. Drench them with those rivers, those waterfalls of love God. I have a vision. I have a vision right now of a waterfall just coming your way. Just coming your way. Just waterfalls. Just rivers coming your way. This is your time for love.
SID: Some of you just experienced being drenched in God’s love and some of you don’t know or have intimate knowledge of God. This is your moment. You’ve felt his presence now say with your mouth, repeat after me. “Dear Jesus, forgive me of all of my sins. I’m sorry. I believe your love washes away my sins and makes me clean. And now that I’m clean Jesus come inside of me. I make you Lord of my life. Amen.”
SID: Karen you’ve been bathed, drenched, I love that word, drenched daily in the love of God. Were you fearful of the Mafia listening to your conversations, following you everywhere, trying to poison you at that point?
KAREN: No. I was laying on my bed meditating on just how beautiful and how good God was. I was no longer afraid of anything. I just wanted to keep being drenched by the love of God. The Lord gave me a vision and I saw the Lord and he had these very large clopping shears. He was cutting wires and I knew that it was finished, that the Mafia would never follow me again. That day there was a white van outside, a big guy got out of the van and he threw a football in the air and he said, “Touchdown.” And they took the wires off my house.
SID: I’ll tell you what if God is for you, who would dare be against you. Your son Blake prophesied to you one day and says, “Mom I think we should help the hungry, the starving, the needy people of the world.” That sounded right to you and then you started moving in miracles. Tell me about the lady in the park that was dying from cancer.
KAREN: Oh it was just wonderful. Her name was Mary and she had cancer all over her. I think she had seven cancers if I remember right. The doctors told her there was no hope for her, to not come back any more. I told her, I said, “Well I serve Jesus.” I said, “Cancer’s no problem for Jesus.” And I said, “Let me pray for you.” So I prayed for her and she said the next morning there was a lump on her and it was gone. She went back to the doctor and it was so funny, she said they bought a new machine, $100,000. They couldn’t figure out, thought there was something wrong with their equipment and she was giggling. She says, “Now they want me in there all the time. They want to know what I’m eating and everything else.” She was a poor woman, they wanted nothing to do with her. Now that the Lord was healing her and the cancer was getting smaller and smaller and smaller, she said they want her in there all the time. They’re asking her all these questions, “What are you doing? What are you eating?” I said, “Tell them Jesus.”
SID: So you get a call to go to Israel. Tell me briefly about that.
KAREN:I got the call to go to Israel the first time with the Samuel Howells Bible College in Wales. The second time I was, every time I heard the word Israel I would … The spirit of God would fall on me and it was like he gripped me and he told me, “You must go to Jerusalem.”
SID: And you do that?
KAREN: I did.
KAREN: Of course.
SID: And then you were directed to a refugee camp in Jericho and you started going through horrible persecution. What did they do to you? Because she’s a witness. Tell me the type of persecution you went through.
KAREN: Well when I moved into the refugee camp I was the only one in a Palestinian refugee camp. It was a militant refugee camp. You know the Israeli army tanks would come in and it was very edgy during the Iraqi war, so I’m in the camp talking about Jesus and they blew up my car, they threw Molotov’s through my windows, all kind of things happened. They talked about me on the mosque. It was war.
SID: Did they talk about you on the loudspeakers?
SID: What did they say about you?
KAREN: They said, “There’s an American here going to steal our children.” And they said, “She’s giving out food. Don’t go there.” And the more they spoke about me on the mosque the bigger the crowds would get around our house.
SID: Tell me about the Muslim man that had the incurable eye disease.
KAREN: I remember this guy. I mean he was just, we were trying to help him. He had 10 children. He came to me one time and his eyes were all infected and running and he said, “Mohammed’s power is greater than Jesus.” I thought, “Well have Mohammed take care of you.” The spirit of the Lord just gripped me, and said, “You pray for him and you tell him if Mohammed’s power is greater he will never be healed but if Jesus’s power is greater he’ll be healed immediately.” I prayed for him and the next day he came and his eyes were totally healed.
SID: Tell me about the last big fire bombing.
KAREN: This is fire number 7. Like 7 years of famine, 7 fires. The fire came in, they used 100 plastic chairs, put them up against the house and made an explosive that every window in the house blew out when the explosive went off. I heard Thomas scream, “Fire!”. The kids, I had two volunteers then, not many. Now we have closer to 50 but back then it was hard to have volunteers because the persecution was so high. They run out so I started crying out to the Lord. I said, “Lord, what? Around this mountain again? Buying more furniture again? The house all full of flames?” At that point I knew I could walk through fire and not get burned. At that point, I mean, I was convinced God would rescue me but I was tired of fires. And the Lord said to me, the Lord said, “If you would just lift your hands in the air and you will praise me and you will give me glory,” God said, “I’ll carry you into the next realm.” I told the kids, they were worshipers, I said, “Come on we’ve got to worship. We’ve got to praise the Lord.” We just lifted our hands in the air and began to praise. I just want to say if you’re out there right now and you’re just being crushed, every wall is caving in, if you would just give him glory, if you would just lift your hands and praise him, God is going to carry you through.
SID: You’re doing such a marvelous job there that you get called to Jerusalem. What did the Israeli army say to you?
KAREN: The Israeli army called me in after about 5 years. They said, “We’ve watched what you’ve done.” They said, “When you first come into Jericho we thought you were crazy.” But they said, “You’ve accomplished much.” And they said that terrorism has fallen in the city of Jericho. They said, “There’s 27 more refugee camps out there. We want you to move into Jerusalem and take an office in Jerusalem because you’re a partner with Israel.”
SID: Did they give you the office?
KAREN: No, no. We rented the office but they gave me a political status and they registered us sovereignly as an NGO.
SID: Alright, everything now, she’s at the height of her ministry. She has success in one Palestinian camp, Jericho. The Israeli army takes note of it and says, “We want you to open up an office and manage over 20 Palestinian camps. Do the same thing.” She’s so excited.
SID: You know, Katherine Ruonala is known for having intimacy with God. Katherine, if there’s one thing that you can help us with to achieve this intimacy with God, what is the key?
KATHERINE: You know, I believe it is fellowship with God through worship, through a life of worship. And worship is, I used to think of it as this strange conduct. Why would God want us to tell him how good he was all the time? But actually, worship is a Divine embrace. It’s like when I was a young mom and my little kids would see me when I came home, they’d put their arms up and go, “Up Mommy, up!” And I couldn’t resist. I’d want to scoop them up. And you know what, that’s what worship is like for us. We come to God and we say, “Up, Daddy! Help!” And he runs towards us, scoops us up, and just as we love on him, he loves on us, and he tells us we have to pray for supernatural help to handle how much love he wants to give us.
SID: Well is worship an event such as singing to God or is it a lifestyle for you?
KATHERINE: For me, worship is an absolutely lifestyle. It’s not just singing. It is actually living in adoration to God. Everything, the whole of creation is our invitation to respond to God in worship, to have fellowship with him and that’s where joy comes from. You could live joyful knowing that he loves you.
SID: You know, I believe if it didn’t release miracles, if it didn’t release favor, if it didn’t release healing, if it didn’t release solving family problems you would live a life of worship anyway.
KATHERINE: There’s nothing, nothing more glorious. We were created for worship.
SID: Would you worship God just for a moment. I want to watch you worship God. Would you?
KATHERINE: You know, I believe even as we talk about him we are worshiping him. The Holy Spirit, he leads us in revelation knowledge of him and then God manifests himself through us. As we are communing with him we get to manifest him.
SID: I feel his presence as you’re talking about him right now. Tell me a few miracles that have happened.
KATHERINE: You know, I believe that as we live this lifestyle of intimacy with God, God wants to show himself strong. We had a couple bring a little foster baby, 18 months old, to a meeting, and she, they think she had been shaken as an infant. Her eyes couldn’t focus. She had one eye would go this way, one eye go this way, and she had no sense of balance, had never walked as a result. And we just commanded her eyes in the name of Jesus to come straight, and in front of everybody, God just straightened her eyes. People gave their lives to the Lord on the spot.
SID: You know what’s so amazing, here we are in Jerusalem, and they have the Muslim prayers on loud speakers right now. I’m looking for the day that we have Christians worshiping the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the name of the one Messiah, the whole world, the Jew, Jesus, Yeshua Ha’Mashiach on loud speakers.
KATHERINE: Well you know, and when we see God do miracles it causes people to respond to God and worship. And I got called one night into the intensive care unit and a man had had a terrible accident. It was a logging accident. He had been in a tractor, rolled down a cliff and had huge gashes in his head. They had operated, but they couldn’t get all the mud and the gunk out of the deep gashes because it was just so deep and so dangerous. And so we worshiped God in the intensive care and just thanked God for healing. I felt the release of power and we just worshiped God there. I left. He was unconscious. We didn’t see anything, but I knew God had done something. Well the next day, the nurses said that they had never seen anything like it.
SID: What happened?
KATHERINE: As he was lying on his bed unconscious, suddenly the gashes in his head started spurting out all the dust and the mud, and the gunk all over his pillow, and he was completely healed. He didn’t even need an operation.
SID: Do you know something, when you have a lifestyle of worship of God there’s not enough that God can do for you. He wants to do so much more for you than he’s doing right now. But in fact, he wants to heal you right now. I know as a fact there are people with arthritic fingers, the pain is gone, and back and neck problems, what is God showing your right now? Pray for the sick.
KATHERINE: You know, I believe even as you’re watching God wants to touch you. We see so many people healed even as we pray when people are watching. So right now whatever you need, I believe the God who loves you more than life, even if you don’t know him, he wants to make himself real to you. He loves in a way that is practical. So right now in Jesus’ name, I’m going to pray, Holy Spirit, Lord, whatever the miracles they need touch their bodies. I thank you, Lord, for eyes being opened. I thank you, Father, for a brain tumor right now disappearing in the name of Jesus. And Lord, I pray above all that everyone watching, everyone hearing the sound of my voice, Lord, that they would have the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of you, the eyes of their understanding would be enlightened, God, that they would personally know you, that they would experience you and find you, and feel you, Lord, that you would be so real to them because you don’t want to be a concept to them. You don’t want to be just a theology. You want to be their friend. Lord, make yourself real to them. Open the eyes of their heart as they cry out and say, “help.” If you’re watching just say, “Help, Lord, I want to know you and I thank you, Lord.” You delight to him.
SID: There is something going on right now in the invisible world. There is a flood of liquid love coming out to you from Katherine’s heart of worship. There are rivers of living water pouring out to you right now. If you have never said with your mouth, God, forgive me of my sins, I’m so sorry. I believe the blood of Jesus washes them away and now that I am clean, I ask Jesus to live inside of me. Give me a new heart, a new spirit. Become my Lord. Use your own words. It doesn’t have to be my words. Just “Jesus help” was enough to get it done for me. But this is your moment to have experiential knowledge with the Living God and live a life of worship. Yes.