Sid: I’m so excited because I’ve got in my hands a teaching series called “What God has Joined Together.” There is a problem in the world involving divorce. There is probably equal problem in the quote “Church” involving divorce. And this wrong and I believe God has some solutions and some answers. I believe there are people listening right now that this teaching will transform, absolutely transform your marriage. There is no such thing as an impossible situation in marriage. God says “All things are possible to those who believe.” I have on the telephone Gary Whetstone, and Gary is the Pastor of Victory Christian Fellowship” New Castle, Delaware. And he’s also the head of the Gary Whetstone Worldwide Ministries which has founded over 207 Bible schools throughout the world. Gary there was a day in which your life should have ended. Did you ever see the movie Mishpochah “One Flew over the Cuckoo…” and they gave lobotomies to those patients. Well in effect, there was a point but short of the mercy of God the man I’m speaking to that has done so much in the kingdom of God would have been a vegetable. Gary you started out so good you’re a star athlete, you making good grades but you had an auto accident, what happened?
Gary: Well Sid when I was in my early teenage years I was 3rd seat in Delaware and 10 as Captain of the football team President of Student Councils, straight “A” student. And then during the winter of my ninth grade going into the 10th grade year I hit a car head on sledding. When I did that it drove my right arm through my back and as a result in my ability in swimming, tennis, everything was just football was out the window. My brother during that time had been the President of the Pagan motorcycle club here in southern Philadelphia region and literally I turned my life over to a life of drugs and crime and everything else to the point Sid that literally I lost my mind completely. And spent almost 2 years in an isolation ward in the state mental hospital in Delaware both going to the bathroom and eating out of the same pan that I get every day that I get with food in it, it was incredible.
Sid: It’s beyond someone’s wildest imagination for someone at such a young age to go from star athlete with good grades to that. Tell me about what the doctors wanted to do to you and what the affect would have been on your life.
Gary: Well Sid really this is quite a shock to the American listening audience because they don’t think things like this has happened in this generation but in fact it has. I was locked in an isolation ward on and off from the age of 16 ½ to 18 ½ and by the end of that time I was in permanently in an isolation ward. And I was what was considered a ward of the state, where I lost literally all constitutional rights. My parents had signed a waiver of the state that if the State of Delaware killed me or permanently maimed me this new procedure that there was no legal recourse that they could take. What the procedure was drilling a hole in the cranium in the top part of the brain and removing that part of the skull, inserting an electronic probe and killing the brain mass that contained all memory. Very similar to what we would call an electronic lobotomy. And literally I could remember the days where I was taken by arm and feet restraints to the head psychiatrist’s office and I was notified of this procedure. And everyone in the mental hospital knew that those that had ever had that procedure all died…
Sid: You know what it sounds like to me it sounds like legal murder to get rid of the mentally defective.
Gary: Well at that time it was. And actually the tragedy of this whole procedure was that it was developed upon the Jews in Auschwitz. And during that time unfortunately a lot of the American Physiotherapy and operations and mental hospitals came out of the concentration camps of the Jews. And that was the founding place of these procedures.
Sid: Two days before you were about ready to be made a vegetable, a man witnessed to you what happen?
Gary: I had long red hair and a long beard down the center of my chest and I was literally living in an isolation ward. On Wednesday I was going to begin the procedure on Friday and they would progressively kill the brain throughout a 4 or 5 day process. I was invited to meet a man in the solarium which I had never been in. It was a locked ward that you could not have other people in. As I sat there they were shooting me up with Malarone and Thorazine such intense antipsychotic drugs, it was enough to knock a horse out. That man looked at me and I’d never met up until that point anyone like him. He said “Gary the power of sin is going to kill you, but if you would repent and receive Jesus as your Lord and Savior you’d be saved.” I never knew what saved meant; I never knew what repent meant, and didn’t know who Jesus was, just thought he was a cuss word. And literally I was on my face on that carpet with tears pouring out. Something had happened with those words that had pierced through the mental torment that broke through the absolute confusion of listening to voices and everything. And upon that place I got up off that place I got up off that carpet and my mind was normal again. And I said to this guy he was a Baptist preacher, and I said “What happened to me?” He said “Oh, you got saved.” I said “Oh, what’s that?” He said “You got born again.” I said “What’s that?” He said “Jesus.” I said “Who’s that.” I did not know what happened to me. All I knew is that the incredible mental torment was over and my thinking processes were reengaged in peace. And literally I said to the guy, “You’ve got to explain to me.” Well he looked at his watch and said “I’m sorry I’ve got to go and I’ll come back later.” There was no later for me Sid I was going to have this procedure in 2 days and later did not exist. So he walked out.
Sid: So what did you do?
Gary: Well, he walked out they called the orderlies back they bound up my hands and feet again because I always lived in restraint whenever I was outside of the isolation area. They led me back into the ward, led me back right into my cell in that padded area and that was it. I beat on those walls on the doors for literally upon hours upon hours to try to get an orderlies attention. Finally the guy comes over and says “What do you want?” And I told the guy this is now later in the day on Wednesday I said “I’m sane.” And you can get a picture here is a guy sitting in isolation ward screaming out he’s sane with his fingers in his ears and beating on the door. I mean it’s kind of comical but in reality it wasn’t.
Sid: I’m glad I wasn’t in your shoes.
Gary: Yeah, and so finally he said “What do you want?” I said “I’ve got to be reexamined by a psychiatrist.” Well, the next day evidently because of a request that a person prior to that type of procedure was granted I did meet with a head psychiatrist that next day on Thursday. And as I sat there they took my hand restraints off and I was kind of surprised they did that because in an area where other people are I always was bound. And I explained to this man that I had no knowledge of what happened really but I prayed this prayer and now I’m sane.” Well the psychiatrist said “We’re you having a sense of sanity because of relationship with God?” And I said “Yeah, that’s what it is” I thought the guy was kind of tuning into what happened to me. And he shook his head and said “Well Gary this is a further manifestation of the incredible mental derangement that is in your life…
Gary: “The paranoiac schizophrenic state in this entire area of mental insanity and unfortunately now you’re living in apparitions of god which is completely unfounded and you’ll have no contact with reality so we are going to continue with this procedure.” Well I tell you Sid what happened to me I lunged across that desk grabbed that psychiatrist, started beating him up. And he hit the panic button and the orderlies came in wrestled me back down to the ground and put me back in my restraints and off I went. Well you know I kind of say it this way “Well how many other people still acted like the devil right after they got saved.” Well any rate that’s exactly what happened to me.
Sid: Listen you were in desperate, desperate situation!
Gary: Yeah, I was down to probably 24 to 30 hours before I was to be reduced to a vegetable. They had said that the only thing that would be left in my life would be number 1 the ability to walk, and number 2 I’d probably lose all ability to retain my body functions, and I’d have to learn how to go to the bathroom again. But outside of that there would be no memory of the past and no memory or ability to build memory in the future. It was like an electronic lobotomy. And it was just the most incredible atmosphere.
Sid: And you’re in a cell and in a straight jacket type thing or…
Gary: Well when I was in the isolation area they would take the restraints off of my hands and feet. But any time that I was out I was always bound with these restraints that they used. And what was interesting I was always led away from the head psychiatrist after having that little beating him up there they had taken the arms restraints and the feet restraints off. And one guard was on one side and the other was on the other side and it was like a corridor that actually went outside with screen meshing and glass and bars and everything. And what happened was just like you can picture in the prison environment they would open doors and I would be kind of like a rat you know just guided into my isolation cell and that was it they’d shut the door. And of course they’d start the procedure the next day. And during that time they shut the door behind me and 2 guards are looking at me I’m telling you Sid something happened that literally blows people mind…
Sid: Gary can you hold that thought.
Sid: Tomorrow’s broadcast we’re going to pick up right here.
SID: Kynan said when he does three things, miracles erupt. One, proclaim the Kingdom of Heaven. Two, create the atmosphere. The atmosphere of the Holy Spirit is welcomed. And number three?
KYNAN: The third and one of the most important keys to seeing healing manifest is a “D” word called “determination.” And what that means is that we must keep pushing into God until we see manifestation. Too many people give up before their miracle manifests and right when they’re about to receive their healing, they quit. The Bible says, “Don’t cast away your confidence. It has great recompense of reward. For you have need of endurance, determination, persistence in order to see the miraculous.”
SID: You know what I believe, Kynan? Those lying symptoms will hang around as long as they think you’ll eventually give up. And once they realize that you’re not going to give up they find someone else that’s willing to give up.
KYNAN: Absolutely. Satan is a bully. And like all bullies, the only thing a bully responds to is brute force. And you have to learn how to really, really stand your ground and tell the enemy, you’re not going to have my health, you’re not going to have my body, you’re not going to have my mind because it belongs to God, and I’m going to fight for it with every fiber of my being. Until you get to that place, the enemy will keep attacking and he will keep disturbing your health. But when you make a decision and say, no more, I will not tolerate it anymore, and keep pressing, you’ll wear down the enemy and he’ll have to flee.
SID: Okay. Many times Jesus cast out demons and people were healed. Other times, he prayed for the sick and people were healed. So there’s a distinction. Kynan, in your experience, what type of illnesses have you seen that the first thing you look for is to cast the demon out even before you pray for someone to be healed?
KYNAN: Well the first and most common one is cancer. I believe, along with many of those that have gone before me that cancer is a manifestation of the demonic spirit of death, also mental illness: schizophrenia, bipolar disorder. You see this throughout the New Testament. Jesus cast out spirits of insanity. Things like arthritis and things that deal with the bone are often times manifestations of spirits of infirmity in people’s body. We have to use discernment to know how to identify these demonic spirits.
SID: Now you talk a lot about sin can literally be a portal for the demonic.
KYNAN: Demonic spirits have a legal right to enter. When people are involved in pornography, adultery, watching demonic movies, the new age, and there are so many involved in the new age that, you know, many people don’t realize it, but these things are allowing the enemy to have a stranglehold on believers without their being aware of it. And so you got to understand that the first thing, if you really want to, let’s say you’re not experiencing healing and you’ve been dealing with prolonged infirmity, the first thing you’ve got to identify is are there some open doors or demonic portals, and through the power of the spirit you need to collapse those portals. And when you do, we’ve seen many people supernaturally healed just by breaking the power of the demonic.
SID: Now what do you exactly mean, “would collapse the portals”?
KYNAN: What I mean is we have to take authority through the name of Jesus and close those doors. It’s just like in the natural, it’s like, imagine a tunnel that an enemy is traveling through. Many times during wars, there would be secret tunnels where spies and enemies would come through and the first thing it would do is take a stick of dynamite, and they would collapse that tunnel, and it would block off the passage to those enemies. And the same way in the spiritual realm, we have to take the dynamite of the Holy Spirit, the dunamis of God, and we have to release the power of God that will break and cut off that demonic entrance.
SID: Do that right now, especially cancer.
KYNAN: Father, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, there’s someone watching me that’s been dealing with Hodgkin’s lymphoma. There’s another person dealing with melanoma of the skin, another one with leukemia. And right now in the name of the Lamb Jesus Christ, Yeshua, we collapse, we break the power of every demonic portal, every demonic entrance that has been opening the door to sickness and infirmity, right now. If you’ll just stretch your hands right now, I believe that the Holy Spirit is even healing you now. We cancel the assignment of the devil in Yeshua’s name. Amen.
SID: Did you catch what Kynan said? The devil is a bully. But the devil comes like a roaring lion, but all he’s doing is roaring, and you give him no place. Why? Because greater is he that’s in you than he that’s in the world. I tell you, there is more power in the resurrected Jesus. I tell you the grave is empty. The tomb is empty. He’s alive. I tell you he’s alive and he can live inside of you. Just ask. Say, Jesus, I make you my Lord. Do it now, right this moment, out loud. Ask him to forgive you of your sins, be your Lord and live inside of you. Now.
Sid: Let me tell you what God is speaking to me; we had a season in which there was such an emphasis on the Holy Spirit it started the whole Charismatic movement. And rightfully so because the Holy Spirit there wasn’t much of an emphasis on Him, and then there was such an emphasis on the Name of Jesus. The power in the Name of Jesus and rightfully so, but we haven’t had that same revelation on God the Father until now. Why haven’t we had that same revelation? Because just before the Messiah returns God says in the Prophet Malachi He would return the hearts of the children to the fathers and the hearts of the fathers to the children. And I was excited when I got a hold of Hank Kunneman’s new book “My Heart Cries Ababa” because we now have that revelation. Hank Kunneman you have such a Biblical revelation and prophetic going from Genesis to the book of Revelation on the love of Father God that I believe that everyone that wants that revelation, I can’t believe a believer that doesn’t, by the time they finish your book their going to get it. How did you happen to even write this book? What was the catalyst Hank?
Hank: I learned this revelation as I was driving in a very bad ice storm you know in Nebraska we have some very bad ice that comes. This one particular day I was driving and it was very very icy and you have to really slow down and you have to drive carefully because the roads are extremely dangerous. In fact there were cars and trucks and semis that were over turned. Cars literally on their side, some on their tops and I was really beginning to be afraid. And I could feel the sweat coming down on my face. I saw that the conditions were worsening and so I called out and I said “Lord I need You help I want You to watch over me; I need You to watch over the situation.” And of course I was saying it in fear and all of a sudden I heard a very strong yet gentle voice saying “Hank, why wouldn’t I take care of you after all I am your Abba.” And when He said those words Abba it’s almost like my spirit being began to reverberate, “Abba, Abba, Abba, Abba.” And I couldn’t shake it it was almost like as I was driving in this ice storm all I could focus on was the word “Abba.” And so I began to go home and research the definition of the word Abba, what did it mean and why did Jesus in the Garden in His moment of incredible pain came a feeling with great drops of blood as was sweating and it was a time when His soul was vexed. Why of all things he would cry out in Mark 14 to His heavenly Father, He would use the word Abba. And so I began to say you know God with my life and the things that I’ve gone through or people that are living today there’s a real sense that people are hurting they’ve been through some things. Some people their souls and been vexed and I said “God I really sense in my heart that this is the final revelation of what You are going to reveal before the Messiah comes that is a reconciliation or a bringing back of the people connecting them to the heart of who God is Abba.” And so that’s why I wrote the book and that’s really how it began to come to me.
Sid: I want to tell our listeners right now that we’re friends, I’m friends with Hank, I recently spoke at his church and Hank opened up to me and told me some personal things that he has never publically shared. And he wasn’t sure that he wanted to share it and you told me that recently you heard the voice of God and what did He tell you?
Hank: The voice of the Lord spoke to me and said “Hank the reason why you were born into the family situation that you were born into,” that we’re going to talk about here, “is because I want you to share a story, a testimony to help other people.” You know I’ve learned something I’ve been in the ministry since 1986, and Sid I’ve learned the importance we have to be honest, we have to be genuine, we have to be able to share our stories that can empower and help somebody else…
Sid: You know as you and I have discussed I am so sick and tired of plastic Christianity if we can’t be real who can?
Hank: Well I don’t think we’re helping anybody, you know we’re supposed to be ministers of reconciliation and sometimes the way that you reconcile is through being honest, being open and being transparent that can help people that can identify what you’ve gone through. And really in my book “Abba” I talked about how there was 3 types of fathers and I began to understand that there’s:
- The biological type of a father where there just basically what we would call the sperm donor but they’re not one who stays around and raises that child.
- There’s the provider and the protector you know they’re the kind of father they put a roof over their head, they protect, they provide but there’s not a lot of love and affirmation.
- Then there’s the third kind of father that maybe had the honor or having that, that is the father that affirms them and looks them in the eyes and tells them “Hey, you know I love you.”
Well I didn’t have those examples growing up. I had the biological example. Let me give you what I’m saying and again Sid, this really the first time that I’ve really opened up on this level like this because I felt like I just needed to hold on to not really let anybody know about it. But the more I realized as I was writing this book that God was after something, He was after the hearts of man and He wanted to heal some people who’d been broken, who’s been wounded. You know people that are saying “Can I love God that way like a Daddy because of their own experience of their own either absence of a father or their own experience with a father. So people are crying out and they’re saying “Is God angry at me? Is He ashamed of me? Is He willing to get involved in my life now?” And so I grew up I had a biological father, I never met him he’s not alive today, but he was a biological father. He married my mother and at the age of 1 he left and left her with 2 kids and went on his way and I didn’t ever come to know him. So for years I felt like I had to hide this thing that I wasn’t…you know my name is Kunneman and I felt like I had to hide this thing that I wasn’t a blood Kunneman. And something that people need to understand…
Sid: So you almost felt as a kid as a kid’s mentality second class.
Hank: Well I’ll tell you why I did, because I’ll tell you I’ll move a head just a little bit my mom remarried and married what some would call my stepdad and even though I never called him a stepdad, I never referred to him as by his first name. He adopted me as one of his own at the age of 2 and he had 4 kids from a previous marriage. My mom had me and my sister from my biological father. So when they came together it would be my adoptive grandparents, or some would say step-grandparents, they didn’t receive me as their own flesh and blood. There were times growing up, it was very hurtful for me because they would say things like “You know you are not one of us, you don’t have the true blood in you.” And they would say things like “You are never going to get our inheritance.” Now they had a lot of money…
Sid: Now what about something like Christmas Hank, what was that like for you?
Hank: Well and that was a little painful for me and here I’m a little kid and of course I’m not bitter I did experience the pain of not feeling like I belonged. And so they would constantly take the 4 blood grandchildren and they would give them the bigger gifts or give them gifts and there was times that I wasn’t their own flesh and blood you know you get a smaller gift, or I would get a card at my birthday or I had to watch my brothers and sisters you know open up bigger presents and get money at times and promised an inheritance that once the grandparents would go on. Well what happens is nobody got any inheritance, my grandparents wound up both needing medical care and extended hospital stay and it ate up all of their inheritance. But growing up as a kid and I mean I’m 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 years of age and I’m wondering “Why am I being treated differently I don’t understand this?” And what do you mean “I’m not part of your own flesh and blood.” So growing up that was very hurtful. I always wanted to feel like I was part of the family and I had to learn through those times that you know I couldn’t get upset I couldn’t get bitter but at the same time there was times I would just go away and I’d just cry in my room because I couldn’t relate and understand well how am I different then my brothers and sisters? Why am I not a real flesh and blood Kunneman?
Sid: And in that whole thing as a little child trying to process raised in a non-Christian home at age 5 you had a visitation!
Hank: Yeah, that is the most amazing thing and this is what I want to encourage people today. Even though you may grow up into a family or a situation that you didn’t ask for, you know I didn’t ask for it. I was a part of a process that I didn’t realize that Abba was working at that time. At the age of 5 my dad was in the military, my stepdad, and he was in the military and he had orders to go to Guam. And I remember that at the age of 5 I heard a voice and it was so tender and it was so sweet that I began to look around. I was on the driveway and leaning on the back of our parents, my parent’s car and I heard this voice. And again I’m talking in simple childlike terms… I heard this voice basically telling me that “I was loved and that if I would do good and do good things and be nice to others that there was a great plan for my life.”
Sid: Oh, we’re out of time….
Sid: I’ve been looking forward to this interview for a while I have on the telephone the Senior Leader from Bethel Church Bill Johnson. Bill, there is something that marks you, and I believe there are 2 things that have done it. The first that has done it and sometimes it marks someone in a bad way, is how many generations is it 5 generations of Full Gospel Preachers and Pastors? (Chuckling)
Bill: Yeah, I’m a 5th generation Pastor and my children are all in ministry as well, so the 6th generation.
Sid: That is… what a wonderful heritage.
Sid: I mean that alone is miraculous to me. I mean I didn’t even know who Jesus was until I was almost 30 in Christian America of all places. But I want to take you back to a night that you had electricity go through your whole body when was that?
Bill: October of 1995.
Sid: And take me… give me a little bit of the history of that.
Bill: Well I had been really encouraged and inspired in the subject of revival in the outpouring of the Spirit. I had gone to Toronto and was touched there. I had come home we were just hungry for something. Fresh in the Lord, I brought in a friend named Dick Joyce that was ministering, he is a great prophet of God. Was ministering at that church and that evening when I was praying for people I told a friend of mine that God was going to touch him and it could be in the middle of the night at three in the morning. It could be at the middle of the day. When I got home it was real late at night got to sleep. I woke up suddenly at 3:00am exactly with that prophesy that had given to a friend of mine. That prophesy immediately in mind. I looked at the clock it was 3:00 exactly and I said, I said out loud “You set me up.” I felt like the Lord had me encourage somebody else with something that was actually my portion. And He just began to visit me in power, I don’t know any other way to describe it except that it was electricity going through my entire body.
Sid: Let me ask you something, you said you went to Toronto when the Revival hit. What you’re about to describe did you have the same thing happen to you at Toronto?
Bill: No, no I didn’t. I didn’t have anything noticeably happen to me in Toronto except I felt the presence of the Lord, I encountered His peace there was a lot of just deep heart stuff that was wonderful. My affections for Him were strong and vibrant and that sort of thing but no, there was no there was no experience.
Sid: Okay, let’s take you back to 3 in the morning, you prophesied something over a friend, it started happening to you, describe.
Bill: Well, it’s almost… I was actually embarrassed, I felt my face turn red and the reason I had no control of my limbs they shot out with electricity like 1000 volts of electricity I couldn’t control my arms. If I clenched my fists I would try to get control then my legs would get more violent.
Sid: Now that’s interesting Bill because I have had this happen to me but for me I’ve had control. What I do I yield to the Spirit of God doing this but I’ve always felt I could stop it if I wanted to but I never wanted to. Are you telling me you tried to stop?
Bill: Yeah, I didn’t know what was happening at first to be honest with you in the first few moments I didn’t know what was happening. I tried to regain control of my body because it’s not normal to have no control, I couldn’t control it. I would fight it not knowing that I was fighting the Lord and I would try to get control and I realized through…
Sid: Excuse me, was your wife there when this was happening?
Bill: She was sleeping and it was a miracle she stayed asleep because…
Sid: I think so (Laughing)
Bill: It really was. Interestingly a couple of days later it spread to her as well but it was just… it was violent in a sense encounter. And the Lord He paraded certain pictures in front of my mind, He reminded me of Mary the mother of Jesus, the mother of the illegitimate child. Reminded me of Jacob wrestling with an angel limp for the rest of his life. He reminded me of these scenes in scripture where an encounter changed everything. And while it’s highly favored from heaven’s perspective not always from earth’s perspective. And I felt embarrassed for what I was experiencing. And I then there’s a picture flash in front of me that saw me trying to teach in front of the church that I pastured realizing there’s not anybody in the room that’s going to believe that this is God. This is so embarrassing so unusual that I didn’t think that there was anybody that would think that it was the Lord. And then the next scene I saw myself standing in front of my favorite restaurant in town and I realized that the city is going to laugh at me as well. (Chuckling) And it was a decision, I had been praying for months, and I had literally been praying this day and night I would wake up in the middle of the night praying this “God I want more of you at any cost, I will pay any prince.” And so when He paraded these scenes in front of me it was basically asking me “Did you mean it when you said ‘At any price?’” Because the way it looked I either will be a laughing stock in front of the church or the city or I won’t be able to get out of bed the rest of my life I won’t be able to function as a result of this Devine touch. And I laid there weeping for probably 20 minutes and after about 20 minutes or so of tears streaming down on my pillow case I said “Yes, I’ll take it, I’ll take it I want more of You, you can do whatever you want with me you can make me look any way you want it doesn’t matter to me as long as I get You in the exchange.”
Sid: Now just out of curiosity you probably can’t answer this question but it’s crossed my mind. If you had said “No, I want my dignity do you think you would have lost what you have today?”
Bill: Yeah, I do I absolutely do. He doesn’t take you to moments of decisions that aren’t necessarily. I’m not saying He wouldn’t have used me, He wouldn’t have done something in and through my life but we often are the ones that set the limits.
Sid: Okay, did He say anything else to you at that moment?
Bill: That was it, He wanted me to lay down my dignity, my fear of man which you know if you’d ask anyone who knew me in that period of time all of my closest friends would have said “The fear of man was not an issue for me.”But the Lord saw beyond what everyone else could see that I could have been prone to making decisions based on what other people thought and I had to come to that place to go where He wanted to take me I had to be able to respond to Him, still maintain love, honor and respect for people but respond to Him without being crippled by the fear of man. And that’s what He was after.
Sid: Now out of curiosity why did He choose you?
Bill: Oh, I have no idea.
Sid: I know you told me but I thought I had to ask you any way it’s called “just His choice” and that’s all involved.
Bill: I am a 5th generation Pastor and is a wonderful thing I had a great upbringing but I’m the guy that took an F in school on oral exam in school because I didn’t want to speak aloud in front of people.
Bill: I’m the guy that read one book in my all until I was 18 years old I read it in 8th grade and I avoided reading, I hated study, I wasn’t good at any of the things that are necessary for what I’m doing. So when the Lord chose me He was doing what He often does He chooses because of weakness and that way He gets the credit for what He does. So I do believe that’s at the heart and soul of what He did.
Sid: Okay, at what time did the shaking if, you will, the electricity going through your body stop?
Bill: It was 6:38.
Sid: Okay at 6:39 did you just stay in bed and process or did you jump out of bed or did you tell your wife, what happened?
Bill: No I got up I didn’t tell anyone I didn’t tell anyone. The next night it started the moment I got in bed and the 3rd night it hit me and my wife together. By that time of course she knew what was going on but I didn’t tell anyone I was processing I couldn’t figure it out. It was a great mystery to me and now I have hind sight I could see that He was dealing with the fear of man, He was dealing with dignity these issues. At the time I was bewildered.
Sid: I’ll tell you what we’re running out of time right now but on tomorrow broadcast I want to find out the first time you lost your dignity after this event. But before that I have to believe one of the most significant things that God has taught you all of these years is how to host His presence, and this was a process in which He taught you how. I asked you before we went on the air why for your workbook and your 2 DVD’s and your book. Why did you call it “Hosting the Presence” why didn’t you call it “Welcoming the Presence” why hosting?
Bill: Well if you have a special guest come to your home you want to host them, you do extra things. You make sure that you have your nicest tableware you know you have the table cloth, you have the special meal you’re doing everything to honor the guest. And I realized that the Holy Spirit is a permanent resident in me but I like to live with that sense of honor and celebration of this one that I get to host, that I get to truly get to welcome Him; but I’m hosting Him and I’m turning the affection of my whole value system to just valuing and celebrating the fact that God is with me but He’s not just in me which I’m grateful for but He rests upon me. And when He rests upon me it changes everything around me.
Sid: How important is it for you to be aware of this and for those that are listening to be able to participate with the Holy Spirit and have His presence and know how His presence can increase in their life?
Bill: Oh, it’s extremely vital. You know any… we know that any of us that become obsessed with a problem we become fearful, we become anxious, we communicate that nonverbally. We carry the environment of fear and anxiety with us where ever we go. We can walk in a room and make everybody tense. Well turn, well make that you know turn that around and flip it around and you know that the person who lives conscious of the Holy Spirit actually carries a presence into a room and the atmosphere changes instantly.
Sid: Woops we’re out of time.
Sid: You know I was listening on the radio one day I’m driving home from the ministry and I was listening to Sean Hannity. And Sean had a guy on an author I’d never heard of him before his name was Joel Rosenberg and Joel says I’m an evangelical Christian and my father comes from an Orthodox Jewish background. And I thought hmm I’m going to really listen to this interview. Then Sean was saying things like “This fellow is prophetic he was talking about the terrorist attack before it occurred he had a best selling book out called “The Last Jihad.” And he had all of this prophetic stuff and Sean was raving about this guy so I figured I’d get him on the phone and let’s find out about Joel Rosenberg who wrote the book “The Last Jihad” and his latest book is titled “The Last Days.” Joel so I can get to know you just a little bit tell me about your father’s background.
Joel: Sure, well Sid thank you so much for having me on the air I’m glad you caught that interview and picked up that there was a story behind the story I appreciate that very much. My Dad was raised Orthodox Jewish in Brooklyn he comes from a family…his parents were children rather his grandparents had escaped from Russia in the first few years of the 1900’s. They lived in Minx at a time when Czar was whipping out town after town of Jews.
Sid: Interesting my heritage is from Minx too but go ahead.
Joel: What years did your family come over?
Sid: Well my grandfather came over in probably 1938 or something like that.
Joel: Well, this was around 1905 and 1906 and again God’s grace they got out by God’s grace they didn’t settle in Poland or Austria or Germany they were able to make it across the continent, got a boat to Ellis Island. And like any good Jewish family they set up shop in Brooklyn. And that’s where my Dad grew up in the Bedfordstizes area of Brooklyn. He was bit of a rebel so at 18 he decided to set off for California the promise land.
Joel: To become an architect and I think he went about as far away from his family as he could for a number of different reasons. I would say during that time he had really become an agnostic. The Orthodox Judaism his family practiced quite honestly was much more pharisaical and religious do and don’ts than it was spiritual and it disillusioned him. He eventually got a job as an architect in Syracuse, New York where my mother an agnostic Methodist was a doing graduate work at the university. They met and got married and they were really what I would call and maybe this era I would call seekers. They read the Bonifide Neata, the Koran, they read the Bible together, they visited churches and they were constantly talking about you know “There must be a God.” You know this was the 60’s and they were a little bit older and of course married so they weren’t really liked hippies or anything but they were definitely…they were lost but they were searching. And in 1973 they happened to visit a church where somebody really carefully and clearly communicated that Jesus is the Messiah. And they carefully communicated the way to salvation. My Mom heard that just instantly knew that’s what we’d been looking for and there was an altar call and she went forward just assuming that my Dad was a couple of steps behind her and he wasn’t.
Sid: It’s a real strong thing because if we don’t know anything about Judaism the one thing we know is what a Jew doesn’t do. A Jew doesn’t believe in Jesus. And most Gentiles don’t understand what a hard decision that is even for a Jewish person that’s turned off on religion.
Joel: That’s right and it was very…his mother my Dad’s mother when she was walking down the street if there was a church she would cross the street and walk on the other side. And she was deeply against Christianity.
Sid: My grandfather shared the story…well my father shared the story about my grandfather on the other side of the family on my mother’s side was Minx. My father’s side was Poland and my grandfather would walk by a church and spit at the church every time he would walk by it because he attributed the worst things that have happened to Jewish people was due to Christianity.
Joel: Yeah, it’s a hard legacy some mistakes, some serious mistakes of people in the name of Christianity and some of course really twisting Christianity to do evil. Either way yeah this is where my Dad was he was yeah, he was a searcher but he couldn’t quite believe that this is it.
Sid: I’m going to take you Joel to January of 1984 here you are a young man struggling with your own faith what do you believe, what don’t you believe. As a matter of fact you weren’t experiencing much joy being part of religious Christianity. And one evening in 1984 you were actually upset with God.
Joel: That’s right. Well my parents my Dad did 6 months later come to receive Christ and Jesus as the Messiah. So they started taking us to church and kind of began growing up in a church background but it wasn’t connecting with me in my heart. And I was getting to the point as a Junior in high school that I was not experiencing…I think I was mad at God because I said “God you promised in your Bible love, joy, hope and happiness, peace I’m not experiencing any of it so either I don’t get it or it’s not true.” And this was you know probably common adolescence but it was also I think God was really almost forcing me but He was really requiring me to wrestle with Him. And of course I learned later that he who wrestles with God. So I was really wrestling with it I was angry and I was slipping into a depression week, after week over the course of that school year. But one night I had just gone through my little lip me “God you’re not doing anything for me, what have You done for me lately? That type of thing and God stopped me dead in my tracks and in my heart it was as though He was speaking in an audible voice although I don’t think He was. But in my heart it was clear He said “Joel do you ever spend time reading my word?” Now there was a technical answer I could have given yes I had read the Bible but I knew what He was asking and the answer was “No.” And I said “No Lord I’m not doing that.” He said “Joel, do you ever spend time talking to me in prayer?” And again I had to say “Honestly no, I’m not doing that in a regular basis in a furiously way.” And He said “Why would you expect to experience My blessings if you don’t know Me?” End of the conversation it was like the frequency turned off. But I knew at that moment that God had been so merciful to me it just changed everything in that moment to just hear God ask me a rhetorical question but one that helped me understand that He was listening to me and that He had an answer for me.
Sid: There is nothing more exciting when anyone comes to that personal realization that God is real and personal and interested in me as an individual. I have heard God’s voice several times in my life. I wish that it would be every day but I have heard God’s voice and I have to tell you Joel there is nothing to compare to it. I wouldn’t take a billion dollar for being about to hear God’s voice and to get instruction.
Joel: It was a powerful moment for me and it developed a veraciousness in me for the word of God and prayer. I mean I just dove into the scriptures and just between that January of my Junior year and the fall that I went into my Senior year I went to the Olympics to share the gospel with some friends in Los Angeles the summer of ’84. I started a Bible study in evangelism group in my high school. Man that was really a controversial move and we shared our faith with just about everybody in that high school 1500 people. And people could see even though I had been brought up in the church now at this point in my life even though I had name Joel Rosenberg it was always a little confused by that.
Joel: But they could see that I had been just a little down and a little more oomph as a Junior. And I was just on fire for God my Senior year and people noticed that and they asked questions and God gave me answers and I just awe man it was just accelerating just abiding with God in His word it was just was extraordinary.
Sid: I have to ask you a question I know that you one day you ask God to help you write a book etcetera but in your wildest imagination did you think that you would write a book that would be Number 1 on Amazon.com, that for 11 weeks it would be on the New York Times best seller list that. I mean that you would be interviewed by Rush Limbaugh, by Sean Hannity.
Joel: By you! My wife and I when we first moved to Washington we used to listen to your show it just happened to be on at the exact moment we’d drive to work and we’d listen to those trumpets and that’s where we heard the word “Mishpochah” I don’t think I ever heard the word in Hebrew school so.
Joel: So yeah I mean no, I never imagined.
Sid: What’s the purpose of your books? Why are you really and truly…underline, underline why are you writing your books I mean Who’s Who, I mean the top people in America I mean are talking about this book but why did you write it?
Joel: To share the gospel, I mean I had always wanted to write novels and screen plays since I was a kid but when God finally gave me the time and said “Okay, this is the time to write” He had refined my heart to the point where I didn’t want to do it to be successful in some worldly sense. I wanted to write a story that drew people in out of adventure.
Sid: Let me tell you it not only draws people in I have to give people a warning I mean I got so excited when I was reading it I had to put it down a little bit to calm down. Let me read what Sean Hannity has to say about your first book “The Last Jihad.” Buckle up “The Last Jihad” is a high speed hard pounding edge of the seat, rollercoaster ride into the heart of darkness. It feels ripped from tomorrow’s headlines, this stuff could really (I could picture Sean saying this) this stuff could really happen.” I mean I can see how God is using this book because it’s one of the top secular books in America. But I have to tell you as good as your first book was you out did yourself in your next book “The Last Days”…
SID: In 2008, Glenda Jackson went to Heaven. What were you told? What did you see?
GLENDA: Two angels came down and took me into Heaven, and took me to the throne where Jesus and our Heavenly Father are sitting. And I couldn’t even look at him. I just bowed there. And all at once, just a spirit of weeping came upon me, and I saw these angels bringing in golden shields. And I asked the Lord, “What is this?” And he said, “This is shields of faith. My people are using them. My ministers aren’t. They’re going to the world for their needs to be met.” And he said, “They don’t want my faith anymore.” And he told me that faith means forsaking all I take Him.
SID: That’s an acronym. Forsaking him.
GLENDA: Yes. Forsaking all I take Him.
SID: He taught you how faith operates. Give us one nugget that you were taught from Heaven about faith.
GLENDA: Well he told me that to do the works you’ve got to believe. He said that, “I’m not up here praying. I’m the intercessor.” But he said, “I’m not praying for people to get saved. I’m not praying for people to get healed.” I began to weep and I said, “I thought that’s what you were all about.” And he said, “That’s up to you guys on Earth.” Well he didn’t say “guys”, he said “my people on Earth.” He said, “You’ve got to keep the shields of faith, you know, it’s spiritual, the shield.” But he said, “What did I tell Simon?” And I said, “You told Simon, Simon, Simon, Satan has desired to sift thee as weep.” And he said, “I prayed that your faith will not fail.” He said, “Go tell my people I’m up here praying over every one of my people’s faith that it will not fail.” And then I heard a voice behind me and I knew it was Paul. I didn’t even have to turn around. I knew his voice like if I had always known him. And you’ve got eyes in the back of your head in Heaven. And I saw him, and he was a small man. And he said, “Remember what I said.” He said, “Above all, take the shield of faith.” And that’s what we got to do.
SID: Glenda, there’s time slipping away. What has God shown you that will happen in the future?
GLENDA: He showed me that if Christians don’t start praying more than they ever have, even the churches, become the house of prayer, this next election.
SID: Presidential election.
GLENDA: Election is not going to take place. That it’s going to be suspended because evil is going to arise and some disasters are going to happen, and some things are going to be put in place, and the president is not going to be removed. He’s going to stay in. And these things are going to happen, and they’re going to be very bad if we don’t get a hold of God.
SID: What other things is he showing you?
GLENDA: He’s showing me that the church has got to get back to prayer. Prayer is the power he gave the church. And we got to get the faith of God. Paul said, “Do we have God faith or have we taught man’s wisdom faith?” It’s what He said in Corinthians. And He said, “I come and I showed in the demonstration of the power of God my faith, it’s God’s faith.” We got to get back that faith.
SID: Are we supposed to be hearing God at this point? How important is it for us to hear God?
GLENDA: We got to hear God or we’re going to be deceived. God is talking. In Revelation, He’s talked seven times for, “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the spirit is saying unto the church.” And John the Baptist, remember this, he had to be out in the wilderness. He had to learn the voice of God. Then he went in and they hadn’t heard the voice of God in about 2000 years. And what happened? When he was told by God, “When you see the man come in and the dove light on his head,” as soon as he saw that he said, “Behold the Lamb of God”, what happened? The heavens opened and God began to speak for the first time in about 2000 years. And what did Peter say in the Book of Acts? He said, “God is going to speak one more time.” Jesus spoke in Heaven and now he’s going to speak to the earth. And we’ve got to know his voice or we’re going to be deceived.
SID: Now what kind of times are coming, in your opinion?
GLENDA: Horrible times. Times, such as, the Bible said times such as never before. The earthquakes, all of that, are going to intensify. But we don’t have to be afraid. We’ve got to know God’s voice. We’re going to live supernaturally. We’re not going to live like the world lives. We’re going to live supernaturally, God showed me, like they did in the wilderness, like they did in Jesus’ day when he walked on the earth. We got to believe. If we can’t believe we’re not going to make it.
SID: Okay. You’ve heard about Heaven. You’ve heard about Hell. Now the question is, not just where will you be, and that’s the most important thing, but while you’re here there’s a purpose. You are here because God put you here, because God has a destiny in your life, because there really is meaning. You said that tonight that you don’t have meaning in your life. You’re here with a destiny. You’re here with meaning. I want you to make Jesus your Lord. It’s the simplest thing you ever did, but it’s a matter of your heart. I’m willing to surrender. Are you willing right now? Then say this prayer out loud, you at home, you in the studio audience, say this prayer with me. Dear God.
GLENDA: Dear God.
SID: I’m a sinner.
GLENDA: I’m a sinner.
SID: Against you.
GLENDA: Against you.
SID: And you alone have I sinned.
GLENDA: Have I sinned.
SID: And I’m so sorry.
GLENDA: And I’m so sorry.
SID: I believe the blood of Jesus.
GLENDA: I believe the blood of Jesus.
SID: Washes away my sins.
GLENDA: Washes away my sins.
SID: And I am clean.
GLENDA: And I am clean.
SID: And now that I am clean.
GLENDA: And now that I am clean.
SID: I ask Jesus to live inside of me.
GLENDA: Jesus to live inside of me.
SID: And be my Lord.
GLENDA: And be my Lord.
SID: I love you Lord.
GLENDA: I love you Lord.
SID: I am so glad I know you.
GLENDA: I’m so glad I know you.
SID: Fill me with your Holy Spirit.
GLENDA: Fill me with your Holy Spirit.
Sid: Well my guest Tommy Reid I’ve known for many years but there are a number of things that I’m finding out now that I never knew about you Tommy. For instance your parents were among the earliest Pentecostals in the eastern part of the United States. Your father came in dragging his feet because his father was a bar… owned a bar and your dad was an alcoholic, your Mom of course was a strong believer but your dad was an alcoholic and when you were 4 years of age what happened?
Tommy: When I was 4 years of age my parents my mother dragged my father to church to a Wesleyan Methodist Church. And my dad was an alcoholic he was dying of alcoholism; he had bleeding-ulcers doctors had given him up to die. He came to the altar instantly he was converted, I mean he became a believer that was probably the strongest believer in this part of the country everybody wanted his testimony. At the same time he was healed; at the same time he was delivered of alcoholism so he walked out completely healed, completely delivered of alcoholism. Didn’t even know it was religiously wrong to drink. So he went the next night to the bar and ordered his usual drinks and the Holy Spirit spoke to him and said “You’re going to serve me you can’t serve me in this room.” And my dad turned around and said Al I wanted wine, ring it up it’s my last drink and it was instantly. He came back to a home that was broken not between my mother and dad but because he was dying of alcoholism and started serving God it was a total miracle.
Sid: What was he healed from?
Tommy: He was healed from bleeding ulcers that were a result of the alcohol.
Sid: Hm. And this instant, I love these instant healings, instant deliverance. But then at 8 the devil tried to take you out; you developed polio.
Tommy: I developed polio. Well before that I actually had spinal-meningitis and my parents prayed over me and I was healed. But then I had this dramatic healing which was told in that award winning video, award winning story of my life on DVD. In that time I was unable to walk, laying on a bed the devil telling me I would never walk again. My mother telling me “By His stripes you are healed” and began tell me all the healing scriptures. One day I awakened and God said to me “Today is the day I’m going to heal you.” And at the instant I knew that was the day so I called my mother and said “Mom, would you call the pastor have him come and pray for me.” He couldn’t come he was in Buffalo making rounds in the hospitals and he couldn’t come. And I said to the Lord “Why did You tell me today the pastor can’t pray for me?” The Lord said to me he’s not here but I’m here and I’m going to heal you.” At that point I pointed my finger at the devil and I said “Devil you are not going to keep me in this bed any longer.” Pushed myself to my feet, took a step with my good leg and I realized that was the wrong thing to do I realized I should have started with my bad leg first so I’d have the good leg to stand on. But all of a sudden I realized my bad leg worked and I walked across the floor, ran up the stairs and I didn’t walk up the stairs I always run. And at 82 I still run upstairs; I ran up the stairs and got on my clothes, came back down looked at my mother and said “Mom I want a glass of milk.” And my mother had this pan of milk in her hands so shocked that her son could walk that she dropped the milk all over the floor. I said “What are you doing walking?” And I said “Mom I told you today Jesus said He’d heal me.” And she said “Well, your going to have to do one or two things either lap the milk off of the floor or go down to the store and buy it.” So I put my coat on and ran out the door of the house, ran two blocks to the store, ran back home and poured my own glass of milk. Instantly healed by the power of God. So I saw my first miracle in my own body.
Sid: I have to ask you you’re a young child, you’re 8 years old and your using phrases such as Jesus spoke to me. In what way did He speak to you? Was it audible, was it a thought, was it an impression?
Tommy: I think I’m not sure it was audible but to me it was so strong it was audible. To say it was audible I can’t say that but it was so strong in my heart. Many times when God speaks to me because I lived a life I believe that in the morning you go into the presence of God and you hear God’s voice. I believe that He not only talk to Him but He speaks to you; so all of my life I’ve had this innate ability to being able to hear His voice. And I heard His voice that day but I heard it many many times.
Sid: Tell me exactly what He said to you after you were looking for the pastor and the pastor couldn’t come.
Tommy: Exactly what He said to me “Tommy, Pastor is not here and I am here and I’m the one that’s going to heal you. And at that point all doubt was gone I knew that was the day.
Sid: But He also said, “Take me by the hand.”
Tommy: Yeah, well the other thing He said… and that’s kind of what I said to Him. I looked at that and when I couldn’t stand, when I got to the place in my life where I didn’t have the ability to take the next step I knew that I got to do something. So I reached out and this is what I thought in my mind “Jesus if I’m healed I’m going to take your hand and walk because I heard You voice and I’m going to take You hand and I’m going to live my life, the rest of my life.” At 8 years old I said “God I’m going to live the rest of my life holding Your hand and hearing Your voice.”
Sid: Well those are two important things for an 8 year old to learn. I didn’t even know God was real until I was 30. But then you started having visions of your whole future. How does an 8 year old… I mean I was in college and I didn’t know what I wanted to do.
Tommy: Well I think I was brought up by my mother who taught me that. I would kneel by her bed and she would describe the story of the crucifixion and it was so real she worked for Cornell University she was an Educator. And she had an ability to tell me what was in her heart and I began… she began to teach me to listen to God’s voice. So all of my life I would go to altar on Sunday night at a little Assembly of God’s Church and at that Assembly of God’s Church as I knelt at that altar I would begin to see things. I don’t know what happened to me but I would be lost in what I was seeing. And what I was seeing was this big church. Now our church was very small it had hand made benches and hand made altar rails and all worn out 8 x 10 carpets laid together and about 30 people. But what I was… the church I was in in my prayer life was in this big church. It was 100s and 100s of people and the people were singing and worshiping and raising their hands. And when I would awaken and this happened not just one Sunday but happened Sunday night after Sunday night. And I would say “Lord, where have I been?” And it was like I was in two churches the little church and the big church and the big church was more real than the little church. And the Lord would say to me in my spirit “That is the church that you’re going to build.” I lived in that vision the rest of my life I said all of my life that I would come back to Buffalo and build that church.
Sid: I’ll tell you what you had so many opportunities to not fulfill your destiny but having that foundation from your mother teaching how to hear God’s voice. And what about this dreaming of dreams explain that.
Tommy: Well, see I think God speaks in a language and the language of destiny I believe is the language of visions and dreams. I don’t mean just late night dreams you dream when you’re at sleep at night. I mean there is a world in which you live in the world of the Spirit. Jesus went every day to that world, He said “He did those things He saw the Father do, and He said those things He heard the Father say.” Jesus did not just study for a sermon; Jesus went where He heard God’s voice and saw God’s face and saw the future. So when He came down He saw blind Bartimaeus before He saw blind Bartimaeus. And my mother taught me to live in that world, that world where of the supernatural, that world where so many of us don’t know much about where God actually speaks to us and we hear Him and see the things of the Spirit.
Sid: Well Paul Crouch who founded TBN is now in heaven when you were a young kid and just recovered from polio you didn’t know how to play baseball or anything and he taught you how to throw. But he taught you even something more important than that what was it?
Tommy: Paul was a young man that came back from the mission field with his father and his father died on the way home. So he was basically fatherless, he had a wonderful mother. So my parents bought him most of his clothes and he was like my little brother, he was 8 and I was 10. No, I’m sorry he was 10 and I was 12. One day he said to me “Tommy let’s go play catch” and I kind of looked down and I said “Paul, I can’t catch the ball; what do you mean every boy can catch the ball.” What would happen was couldn’t coordinate my eyes with my hands and so I would see the ball in a different place. So Paul took me and he said you know got close to me where the ball wasn’t very far away and he’d say “Tommy would you just watch it; let your eyes follow it.” And he taught me to catch my first ball I never forget when I caught the first ball. And then he looks at me as we walked back from the field where we were catching ball or the place that we were playing catch. And then he looked at me and this is what he said to me “Tommy, (He was 10 years old) Tommy you can do anything you want to do if you will just believe.” And it changed my life; I will never forget that. The last thing he did for me was that to do the introduction on my video and he said in their “Tommy let’s you and I never quit dreaming.”
Sid: Hm. Now one of the things about your docudrama your DVD that we’re making available and it is that as you talk step by step of how the dream within you was more real than what was going on on the outside. I believe people will have the same encouragement that was given you when you were young. And also your brand new book “How to Live Out a Dream.” Well, I believe that it will help those that are listening right now discover the God dream that is within them. And then step by step how to see this dream implemented. You believe that every Bible believer has a God given destiny, a God given dream. It’s not for the special people, explain.
Tommy: Well I think the Bible teaches us in 6 verses in the New Testament the Bible says that our future or our name was written before the foundation of the world. When it says name it just doesn’t mean Tommy it means who Tommy is. My destiny was written by God before the world was created; your destiny was written everybody’s destiny was written before the world was created. Which mean our destiny is greater than nature itself, before there was a rock, before there was a river, before there was a sun, before there was a constellation God wrote our destiny. Which means every single one of us have a destiny. The language which God speaks to us about that destiny is the language of visions or dreams. And that’s what I began to see as a child that… and I believe that God has sent me in these years of my life after I built churches and after I did everything I’ve done in life it’s now my time to begin to go out across America and teach them how to hear God’s voice and dream God’s dreams. And that is much simpler than we can ever realize.
Sid: I’ll tell you something else that I was absolutely amazed at I didn’t know your whole connection with the pastor of the largest church in the world. Except you had a connection with him in Korea before it was such a large church. Tell me about that relationship you had with Dr. Cho.
Tommy: That was in 1962 we had been pastors of the large church in Manila built by Lester Sumerall.
Sid: Hey, did you know Lester by any chance?
Tommy: Oh yeah he was my first mentor. Lester Sumerall was the man that taught me most of what I know. He was the man who took me under his wing when I was a boy; not a boy but a young preacher. And because we had followed him as pastors of the church of Manila, Springfield, Missouri Assemblies of God thought we’d be good to help Dr. Cho get started so they sent us to Korea to work with him. Little did I know that he was pastor of the largest church in the world and so we worked with him the entire year watch the church grow from about 300 to over 3000 that year. And let me tell you an interesting prophecy about Dr. Cho. We were in Tanchon, Korea the whole city was almost destroyed. We were staying with Dr. Cho in a hotel there, we had had breakfast in the train station because it was the only restaurant left after the Korean war. And would in the morning my dad looked across the table one day, I remember he was passing just a few other people, grabbed Dr. Cho’s hand and looked at him straight in the eye and said “Sir, one day you will pastor the largest church in the history of the Christian Church.” And I will never forget him he often tells the story when I am with him “I remember that moment when God put in my heart that I would pastor the largest church in the world.”
Sid: And for those that are not familiar with that church what was their largest membership?
Tommy: I think it was over 800,000 at one time.
Sid: I mean how can you have a church with 800,000? I don’t know how you can have a church with 8000. (Laughing)
Tommy: He brought me back with my family for the 20th anniversary.
Sid: But he wanted you to be not a pastor under him of the largest church in the world he wanted you to be his co-pastor. How could you turn him down?
Tommy: I had to turn him down because I had that vision; you know I knew that this was going to be the largest church in growth. I had heard the prophecy from my father and I knew I watched him grow that church. I mean it was exploding but I knew that was not the vision, it didn’t matter how big it’d be. Now when I got back and things didn’t work right away I thought maybe I made a mistake.
Sid: Or you know what my favorite story about you, especially things are going to so bad you get a phone call from a pastor in a church in Hawaii gigantic church extremely prosperous, one of the nicest places in the world to live. I know about Buffalo it maybe a wonderful place but the weather, you can have it Tommy. How in the world did you turn that church down when they wanted you to be the pastor?
Tommy: Well actually we were here all ready at that point. and I had when I Pastured Manila I used to go back and forth you know commuting between America and the Philippians quite often. And we’d always top in Hawaii and preach at First Assembly. And it was a large church but then in those days you know we’re talking 1960’s… 1950’s I mean or late 1950’s. And we would stop there and I feel in love with Hawaii and I fell in love with that church and I fell in love with those people. But we came to Buffalo and I always had dreamed of going in the natural not God’s dream but my dream was to go to Hawaii God’s dream was Buffalo; my dream was Hawaii. And the phone rang and the voice of Eldon Vincent the Pastor of the other end of the phone said “Tommy would you talk to your wife and would she come with you and you’ve just been elected Pastor of the First Assembly.” And did I ever want to go I was struggling I was ready to give up and in the middle of all of that I get the “I’m elected to the Pastor of this church” but I knew it was not the church in my heart a different church that God put there.” It’s the church I put in my heart hadn’t been built yet we were just struggling. But I knew that there was something inside of me that was bigger than the world around me.
Sid: Well, I can’t wait to get your new book “How to Live Out of the Dream” and this DVD docudrama which is actually won some awards. But there is a supernatural quality about this docudrama that will cause you to discover your dream and to fulfill your dream. Everyone has a destiny before God, everyone has a dream and in fact in a portion of this brand new book is a workbook which will help you identify everything you have to understand to fulfill your dream….
Sid: We want everyone everywhere to be red hot for the Messiah and the truth of the matter is, there are many people that have the life of God inside of them, they are born again, they love God but they have certain bondages. That’s why I’m so looking forward to this week’s interview. I have special 5 fold teacher his name is Craig Hill; he’s founder of Family Foundations International. I have just heard so many good reports about his teachings over the years. I’ve interviewed him previously and I have to tell you the book that we’re offering “Bondage Broken Freedom from Compulsive Habits.” And the 3 Audio Cassettes called “Identifying Shame” every compulsive habit and most abuse is shame, its shame based. Craig tells you in this series what shame is, how it operates and better yet how to get rid of it. Let me read to you before I introduce you to Craig what he’s written on the back of the book.
“Why do I do what I don’t want to do?” Now you’ve read this Paul’s dealt with the in Romans and this is what he says. “Are there certain areas of our life over which you seem to have little or no control? Perhaps you’ve found your thoughts and your emotions are overpowering by such things as hatred, anger, lust, depression. Or you find yourself overcome by habits such as masturbation, drinking, drug abuse, cigarette smoking, or elicit sexual relationships. Maybe it’s compulsive overeating, dieting, exercising, shopping, spending, maybe lying, criticizing, gossiping or just talking too much. Even simple things like finger nail biting or excessive talking can be unpleasant binding compulsions. In this book Craig Hill gives you practical keys and that’s the word keys to break the bondage in your life and release you from prison of controlling habits. You will discover root causes of bondage and how to tear down strongholds in your life to release you into the peace and joy that God has intended for you to experience.”
You know Craig Hill we were talking before we went on the air about something like a wonderful thing for society is called a group such as Alcoholic Anonymous, Over Eater Anonymous, Drugs Anonymous. They have all of these self-help groups and many of them are even from a Christian viewpoint but it’s like one day at a time and although… praise God that I haven’t had to use such a thing I know people that it’s helped immensely but it seems as though all it does it allows them to be free one day at a day at a time. And they’re not really free they’re still an alcoholic, they’re still a drug addict they even say it by their confessions. It’s sort of like a maintenance program isn’t there something better? Isn’t there something more for us available for us today Craig?
Craig: You know Sid that is really true and we find that many many times in the church exactly what you’re talking about that people implement some of these same programs in the name of Jesus, in the name of Yeshua, they’re attempting to do those same things. But they’re attempting to those same things and what they really are I’ve come to call Sin Management Programs. And God has not called us to managing sin Jesus has said in His word “He whom the Son has set free is free in deed.” So what we’re really talking about is the fact that the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ has been shed so that people can actually be free on the inside.
Sid: That’s wonderful that you say what you say because it comes right out of the Bible and every Christian worth their salt knows exactly what you said, so how come we’re not a free people?
Craig: Yeah, I think that it’s an intense frustration. I know in pasturing people I found that intense frustration myself in that what we would find is that the same people would come week after week after week after week after week for prayer for the same thing. And we’d pray for them and we’d tell them that “You’re not trying hard enough, you’re not intense enough, you don’t want this badly enough, you need to try harder.”
Sid: You’re not desperate enough, you don’t pray enough, you don’t fast enough.
Craig: That’s it you need to pray more, you need to read the word more, you need to memorize the word more here’s 29 scriptures on this particular issue you need to memorize these, you need to mediate on these, you need to renew your mind to these and…
Sid: So people do that and they still aren’t free. They’re free to a degree it’s like a day to day type of thing but they’re really in their heart of hearts they’re not free. And so what do they do just give up?
Craig: And yeah, they’re really not free at all because they’re not dealing with what really is at the root, what’s deep at the inside in people’s hearts. And I think what happening Sid is that many many times the church even believes, and congregations believe the lie that somehow or another if I try hard enough through strong will self effort determination I can somehow overcome this bondage. These things that we just talked about in the beginning here hatred, anger, lust, depression, alcohol, drugs, fingernail biting really are external indicators that there is something deep on the inside that’s not being dealt with. There’s something deep deep on the inside that only the Lord Jesus Christ Himself can change.
Sid: But you know what I feel that most people are so… it’s so deep so hidden that they’re not even cognoscente of the fact that is deep there and they’re looking at the external problem and don’t know that deep root.
Craig: That’s exactly right and so those things we just mentioned really are indicators I call them indicators, what they are they’re like an oil light that comes on in your car. And when an oil light comes on in your car maybe it bothers you and you think “Well, that’s really annoying I don’t want that red light there” and so people design all kinds of ways to try to get rid of the oil light. The obviously point is the oil light is not the problem the oil light is just the indicator that there is a problem.
Sid: So overeating is not necessarily a new diet plan it’s finding out what the root cause is.
Craig: Right so to go on a diet is like trying to manage the oil light that’s why I laugh at a program like “An anger management program.” Well anger is only the oil light, it’s the indicator that there is a problem it’s not the problem so it would be like an oil light management program. Well, we don’t need to manage the oil light I mean we can manage it very simply get rid of the oil light just take a hammer bash it out; there no more problem. You carry on driving you’re going to find out that that was not the problem that was only the indicator. So these externals are indicators that there is something deep down on the inside that really is tormenting people that has not been dealt with and as that torment continues on the inside people do all kinds of things to try to make the torment go away. Some people eat, some people do drugs, some people look at pornography, some people gossip, some people tear their finger nails people do all kind of external things.
Sid: But you know the key thing that you just said Craig is “I don’t believe people are aware of the fact the torment is on the inside because it’s so deep, it’s so buried that they think it’s an external thing. If they understood the root cause then they could use the power of God to be free rather than these maintenance programs.
Craig: That’s exactly right and what ultimately happens and we see this happen all the time Sid in seminars that we do and ministry times we see the Lord Jesus Himself actually take people right to the root.
Sid: Can you give me one example that comes to mind?
Craig: I remember a man that was struggling with drugs, serious… actually he had been free from drugs for 12 years, he was one of those people that had a testimony when I met the Lord I was instantly freed from drugs. He’d been working in prisons and jails helping other people get free of drug addictions. And he said “The strange thing is this intense temptation to drugs has come back.” Now he was on staff at a church and he was afraid to admit it to anybody because he was afraid to get kicked out of the church and lose his job and not be able to minister anymore. But he did admit this during one of our seminar times, and I didn’t know what to do you know or where to go with it until I prayed a very simple prayer. I said “Lord Jesus would you just expose to him where is this coming from, where is this temptation to drugs coming from?” And we just waited all of a sudden this man burst into tears buried his face in his hands and wept and wept and wept. I wish I had been spiritual enough to know what was going on but I really didn’t so I just eventually said “Well, what’s happening?” And he said “I just remembered something that I haven’t remembered for years and years and years.” And I said “What’s that?” He said “I can see it right now as clearly as if it happened yesterday.” He said “When I was 6 years old he said “My older brother homosexually raped me.” And he said “My…
Sid: How could he have forgotten something so traumatic?
Craig: Yeah, you know the mind and emotions are a funny thing Sid because when something of intense pain happens to people sometimes the pain is so intense that it’s like the emotions go into shock like what happens when the body is traumatized and the body goes into shock it basically shuts down because the pain is so intense. That happens to the emotions sometimes. This man had not even remembered the experience and here it just came rushing back to him the Lord brought it back. And the amazing thing was then when he saw that experience and the Lord brought that to him. What God began to show him is that the pain of that experience was so intense to him it had been buried so deep that it… what he had done with that pain in teenage years was used drugs to overcome the pain of that. And of course not just from that one experience then many other experiences happened to him subsequently as a result of what had gotten on the inside. But there was an intense deep pain, deep emotional lie on the inside that said “You’re worthless, you have no value, you’ll never amount to anything, you’re just here to be used and abused by other people.” And intense pain of that had remained on the inside and he’d used drugs to comfort it. When he had met the Lord he had been delivered from the external of the drugs but the pain and the lie was still on the inside. And I believe what was going on the Lord at this time later in his life bringing that to the surface because He know longer wanted this man to just manage the pain He wanted to actually set him free. But every time the Lord began to bring the memory to the surface the pain was so intense that this intense temptation to drugs came up again. In other words what the…
Sid: You know Craig we’re out of time right now but you know some of you think “Well, I don’t have serious problem like a drug problem or an alcohol problem,” but guess what there are many many other problems that are buried that are causing you not to have joy and intimacy with God.
Sid: Recently I was watching TBN television. I saw my guest he was a guest on TBN and his name is George Otis, Jr. He is the Head of the Centennial Group in Lynwood, Washington I have him on the telephone. And one of the things that fascinated me is he was talking about cities that had transformations, not just a little revival in a church where people were being touched by God’s Spirit, but where the entire cites were being transformed. And he made the statement “This transformation you don’t see long term in the United States but yet you see it in other areas of the world.” And the thing that intrigued me was the question: Why don’t we see these transformations in the United States? George Otis, Jr. why don’t we?
George: Well, there 7 obstacles that we have identified to transforming revival that are particularly evident in western society and culture. It would probably take more time than we have to go through all of them but some of these things will not come as surprises to your listeners. One of the obstacles is theological misperceptions. We assume that revival is just something that comes as part of the arbitrary fiat of God. God decides at some time for reasons known only to Himself that He is going to visit a particular people or community.
Sid: As my wife’s grandmother used to say “God works in mysterious ways.”
George: Yeah and certainly we can’t fathom all of God’s reasoning so I’m certainly not suggesting that we can understand all of the mind of God. But when it comes to preparing the way of the Lord which is something we’re instructed to do in scripture repeatedly we’re not left to scratch our heads wondering how to get started because God has laid it out very very clearly for us in places like Isaiah 58; 2nd Chronicles 7 chapter 7 and in numerous other passages. There’s a collection of principals and instructions and revelations into the heart of God. And if we will respond to these things and will invite the Lord to come after we have done what He has told us to do preparatory wise then He will come into our community. So that’s one of the things is what is our role and what is God’s role. We’re also seeing problems with misplaced motives where people pray and ask God to come but only for the purpose of alleviating pressure and misery and solving various problems that they have. Now we should hasten to say that God is really interested in doing those kinds of things and in the cases we’ve documented around the world they’re absolutely stunning in example of the power of God fixing people’s broken environments and lives. But that’s not openly why we call upon the Lord to come. We call upon Him for Himself; we’re calling upon a lover and not a handyman. So that’s another thing that I think that has caused us to not see transforming revival in the west. Also, we have the infatuation and a preoccupation with programs. And we want to stage manage the Kings appearance and I think God has shown that He’s very resistant to that. We’re sure that God is going to come into our community He’s going to come in a certain way and at a certain time we try to create the right ambience for His arrival and roll out the red carpet and get the lighting just right and hire musicians. And at just the right moment horns are blasting He tends to make His entrance through an unlit emergency exist.
George: That’s how he entered our world in Bethlehem and that’s how He does that today. And it’s not just to get away from our pretense it’s also that entrance through that emergency exist is the perfect entrance into that community. And if we knew all that God knew about the community we would have been there to celebrate the perfect entrance. And then there’s lack of appetite or lack of hunger. We are willing to pray for revival or ask God to come, but only generally in time slots that have already been set aside for religious observance and that’s not enough. And one of the things that I noticed as a major difference between western believers and the believers in other countries that are actually seeing God come in full measure is that they have abandoned themselves to the process of preparing the way of the Lord. And we have stopped somewhere short of that. We would like Him to come but we would like Him to come at a convenient time and in a comfortable manner. So that’s why we’re still looking at the testimonies that are coming from other parts of the earth.
Sid: And you know a thoughts crossing my mind George, we have a phenomena that you’re aware of in the United States of probably the fastest moving growing churches are what are known as seeker sensitive. Isn’t this almost the opposite of hunger?
George: It is, and a lot of people don’t see it as that but that is exactly what it is. You know a good friend of mine said recently we’ve got a big problem in the western world right now were giving global church growing staffs down and that’s very true. We get absolutely all worked up over a single local church whose membership doubles at a given year and we think “Man can it get any better than this?” Well, the short answer is “Yes, it can get a lot better and in most of the other areas in the world it is.” And it’s been said “That life is filled with many tempting parking places and we in the western world seem to find all of them” and we luxuriate in our small victories and don’t realize that God has so much more in mind.
Sid: Well, as you say we luxuriate in our small victories at church forget a couple hundred. Let’s suppose a church grows to 3-4,000 we get all excited. But I see the statistics of what’s going on with Islam and they wouldn’t get excited if they had 2000 people in mosque. They want to take over an entire city.
George: Exactly right, exactly right. Sid I think that one of the things that we ought to remind ourselves of is that huge results are occurring in our world today and even in our society that are the handiwork of a relatively small group of people. And in the Islamic world you’ve got a revelry small group of real hard core fundamentalist operatives that are controlling the huge circumstances. And in our culture today the same thing is happening with the homosexual lobby. Which is a relatively small percentage of our population but these folks are incredibly persevering and gifted at changing the way that millions of people think about what is okay and what is not okay.
Sid: I have to believe they’re not just brilliant, although they’re hard workers. I have to believe both in Islam and homosexuality these lobbies have people in the invisible world that are helping them.
George: For sure there is no question about it. When you read in Ephesians chapter 6 about principalities and powers, when you’re talking about principalities you are talking about demonic powers in potentate have human spiriters working with them. And you find the King of Tyre operated in this role, King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon operated in this role and many others did in scripture and we do today where we find… Adolph Hitler was another co-conspirator with the demonic power.
Sid: So how are we going to get a human coconspirator with the powers of God to overcome because we know He that is within us is greater than him that’s in the world. So what are we believers waiting for?
George: Well, here’s… you’ve touched on something that I think is a very important point here. There are a number of people that we met with over the last several years who have seen these transformations videos and been inspired and said “We want to see that kind of fruit, those kind of results where we live in our back yard, how can we do it?” And they immediately tend to go out and try to do unity and they call a meeting of all of the believing people in the community to come together and they’ll talk about what they’re going to do and everybody’s excited the meetings full if for no other reason than professional courtesy everybody comes to an initial meeting. But when we hear from these people again it maybe 6 months or 9 months down the road and they’re bemoaning the fact that now in these planning meetings they called there’s a lot of empty chairs. I try to explain to them that God is not fixated or focused on the chairs that are empty He’s focused on the chairs that are filled He’s brought you there. But we get this idea in our head that if this key player, this pastor of this big church is not involved in our program then how are we going to get there? How are we going to see transforming revival take place in our community? And the good news is this, that God almost never works with the majority or with critical math.
Sid: That’s good news but we’re out of time right now.
Sid: My guest by way of telephone I’m speaking to him at his home right outside of Los Angeles, California is Hal Lindsey. He doesn’t need any other type of description because everyone listening has heard of him. Has either heard about his books or read his books and Hal why at this moment did you feel it imperative to put together the best teaching you could about end time events on this video that were offering “Evidence of the End-time?”
Hal: Well it really grew out of the program I do on TBN called “The International Intelligence Briefing.” I just became overwhelmed with how rapidly things were fitting into that exact predicted scenario of events that would come together before the return of Christ. I saw them fitting their expediently and so I just felt compelled to put something out that would put it all together and show people how close we really must be to the coming of Christ.
Sid: Now on yesterday’s broadcast where we ran out of time I stated that you made a public prediction that in this is back in ’91.
Sid: That you saw “The world of Islam would become the most dangerous system to world peace.” And I had the question posed you “How did you see it I mean anyone could see it today just pick up any newspaper but how did you see it in ’91?”
Hal: Well, when the Soviet Union disintegrating I was intensely restudying prophecy. And the Holy Spirit just really highlighted something that was there all the time and I should have seen it. And that is what an enormous role that the descendents of Ishmael and Esau were going to play in the final events of world history before Christ returns. In fact they would be the catalyst according to prophecy that would start the last war called “The War of Armageddon” And so as I looked I saw with the fall of the Shah in Iran and the tremendous changes that took place towards Islamic fundamentalism in Iran how that was triggering a great revival of Islamic fundamentalism. And then I just had to say that the Holy Spirit fit it together for me and prompted me to write an Intelligence Review called “Islam the World’s Greatest Threat.” And I wrote that in 1991 and I could just see that it was clear in prophesy that they were going to be a global threat and that it was coming rapidly.
Sid: Now Hal I have personally by studying your literature and videos etcetera I’ve seen where you have hit home runs based on your knowledge of scripture as to what’s going to happen. Out of curiosity have you ever had egg on your face, have you ever really missed it big time on prophesy?
Hal: Ah, there is one time when I wrote “The Late Great Planet Earth.” That was in 1969 where I said “If this is the time that I think it is and if a generation is 40 years and if it began with the founding of Israel Christ could come as early as 1988.” Now there was a lot of ifs and coulds and so forth and been there but that’s the closest I’ve come to really having egg on my face.
Sid: Now if you were to make that statement again and change the year what year would your put in there?
Hal: You know I wouldn’t put a year.
Sid: Oh! (Laughing)
Hal: I will say this you know Jesus said after He gave many prophesies and answers to his apostles’ question “What would be the time of His coming; what would be sign of His coming and the end of the age?” When He gave all of these predictions He stepped back and He gave an application, “Now learn the sign of the fig tree or learn the parable of the fig tree when the limbs first become tender and put forth leaves you know that summer is there.” So in a parable there’s one basic point and it’s very obvious what’s His point was in that parable that “When the first leaf appear on the fig tree you know that the general time of summer is there.” Then He applies that He says “Even so when you see all of these things” referring to the signs of prophecy about the end times when you see all of them not just a few but all of them coming up in concert He said “Recognize(and that is a command) I Am at the door. And then He applies it he says “Truly I say to you this generation (The one that sees all of the signs coming together) will not pass away until all of these things are fulfilled.” Well, I believe that we are that generation and that we are deep into that generation. So and then He said “But of the day and hour no one knows.” Well He commands us to know the general time but He says we cannot know the specific time, the day or the hour. And so I believe that we’re right in the middle of the general time and Christ could come at any minute.
Sid: Okay, you were right on the button in your prediction on Islam what does the Bible say will happen to the Arabs?
Hal: Well, the warnings are horrific and there will be some that will somehow come to true faith in the midst of this. But Ezekiel chapters 36 – 39 (which is really one message) predicts and warns all of the descendants of Ishmael and Esau that you’re generally called Edom it’s a collective word to describe all of them in the last days. It’s a warning to them that God is going to judge them severely because they usurped His land and that they sought to keep it away from His people when he predicts that they are going to come to that power.
Sid: Well, I do know that you have a dog now.
Hal: I’m sorry, he’s very excited.
Sid: Oh, it’s okay. I want you to give a little teaching right now from Psalm 83. Would you explain what some of these nations are that are mentioned here and what that says verse 3 to 7 Psalm 83?
Hal: Now this is a prophecy that’s really amazing because it does hit right on the issue of this thing. It says “They made shrewd plans against thy people and conspired together against thy treasured ones; they’ve said “Come and let us wipe them out as a nation that the name of Israel be remembered no more.” That could have been at the latest meeting in Jakar (Laughing) in the Southeast Asia where the Muslims got together it could be radio Damascus today. But it says in verse 5 “But they have conspired together with one mind against Thee do they make a covenant; the tents of Edom (which is the descendants of Esau) and the Ishmaelite (which all of these together are the Arabs) Moab and the Hagrites, Gebal and Ammon and Amalek these are…Philistia with the inhabitance of Tyre.” all of these today are the nations that surround the reborn State of Israel. Then He says “Assyria (which is Syria) also has joined with them, they have become a help to the children of Lot.” The children of Lot again were today the kingdom Jordan. So it talks about the fact that in the last days these would confederate together and their joint reason for confederating together is to destroy the people of the nation of Israel.
Sid: Tell me what your read is on Syria?
Hal: You know I have had this sense of something that’s coming there. That’s in Isaiah chapter 17 verse 1. Syria has been the greatest sponsor of terrorists to hit Israel of any other nation of the world. And you name it they’ve got the base for these terrorist organizations in Syria.
Sid: So the US should be as offended with Syria as Israel is!
Hal: Oh absolutely, and my concern is that with the latest movements going on there the United States has already accused Syria because the terrorists are coming across the Syrian border into Iraq to attack our troops. But Syria also has a number of missiles and they have an extensive biological chemical warfare array of weapons. If things get out of hand there and Syria launches a missile at Israel…
Sid: Which by the way I unfortunately see a scenario like that.
Hal: I do too because you know Israel hit North of Damascus and the planes hit and left before they even knew they were there and this really angered the Syrians. But if something like that happens again they may launch a weapon at Israel. And if they launch a weapon of mass destruction like chemical or biological warfare on them they’ll hit Damascus. In Isaiah chapter 17 verse 1 says that Damascus will cease from being a city, it will be obliterated.” Well Damascus is the longest, continuously inhabited city on earth and it’s never been destroyed.
Sid: So what will the European Union and the United Nations have to say if Israel in retaliation nukes Syria?
Hal: Oh my I mean it will be a… repercussions will be enormous but…
Sid: You know I asked you earlier what you see happening next?
Sid: That’s what I see happening next.
Hal: Yeah, because the destruction of Damascus is not related to the War of Armageddon, it seems to be an event that takes place in the end times but independently.
Sid: Alright Saudi Arabia our good friends, what’s your spin there?
Hal: You know I just saw one of the intelligence sites yesterday that I use all of the time Debka Debka File it’s called they’re usually right. They announced that Pakistan has signed an agreement with Saudi Arabia where they’re going to put nuclear tip missiles in Saudi Arabia.
Sid: Oh E Vey! Look hold that thought we’ll pick up right here on tomorrow’s broadcast.