Sid: My guest is a teacher’s teacher; he has a mantle from God. This man has been called to teach and many of you are familiar with his bestselling book “The Bait of Satan” but he’s had many bestselling books. As a matter of fact 20,000 churches or more in North America use his teaching materials. But I have to tell you the most fascinating subject to me to understand is who is the Holy Spirit? And I believe that John is going to introduce you to a classic teaching but before we do that you were talking on yesterday’s broadcast about a Holy Spirit, God visitation in Malaysia tell me about it.
John: Yes this does relate to the Holy Spirit so powerfully. While I was teaching in Malaysia woman were down front the auditorium was jammed packed, a huge auditorium. The Spirit of God came in and it was like Daddy… these women were like laughing hysterically, now this was back in the mid 90’s. I’d never really seen this in Asia and I realized that God was just loving on his daughters. Well, all of a sudden after 5 minutes lifted and the Lord said “I’m coming in differently.” And all of a sudden the atmosphere changed and this awesome, mighty, wonderfully terrifying presence comes in. And all of a sudden these women stop laughing and immediately they’re screaming like they’re on fire; now it wasn’t demonic. Now remember I was walking back and forth going “Oh my God! Oh my God!” because that presence was so amazing I knew irreverence wouldn’t be tolerated in that presence because the King came in, Daddy didn’t come in if that makes sense. And I remember I kept walking back and forth and I remember that out of mouth came these words “This is the Spirit of the Fear of the Lord.” And my mind went “That’s it!” Jesus the Bible says in Isaiah 11 “The Spirit of… the Lord will be upon Him, the Spirit of wisdom and knowledge, counsel, and the Spirit of the Fear of the Lord.” It goes on to say and His delight was in the fear of the Lord.” And I realized that this is one of the manifestations of the Spirit. And I remember right after that meeting it was the largest Bible school in the nation and there was a couple from the nation of India that were in that Bible school and the woman said to me “I feel so clean inside” and I said “I do too!” Well the next morning in my hotel in Malaysia I was praying and God said to me “Read Psalm 19.” I started reading Psalm 19 and I got the verse that says “The fear of the Lord is clean and enduring forever.” I remembered what she said “I feel so clean,” and so did her husband. I thought “The fear of the Lord is clean and it endures forever.” The Lord spoke to me Sid and the Lord said this, “Lucifer led worship before My throne, he didn’t fear Me, he didn’t endure forever.” He said “A third of the angels worshiped around the throne, they didn’t fear Me; they didn’t endure forever.” Adam and Eve walked in the presence of My glory in the Garden of Eden, they didn’t fear, they didn’t endure in the Garden forever. And He said “Every created being that is around my throne forever will be tested in not only the love of God but in the holy fear of God. And it was like a marker in my life and I realized right then that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. People ask me constantly “Where do these insights and revelations come from in these books?” And I can say it’s from the fear of the Lord that opens up the door to open and expand upon His word.
Sid: Well that begs a question “If you were like most Christians in north America that I know and you high fived God all the time and you acted as if you were a cheer leader and you say “Yeah God!” do you think that you’d be where you are right now?
John: No I don’t I honestly don’t I looked at… there is… you know Sid and you are going to be able to correct me; when they brought the children out of Egypt God said “The whole reason I brought you out was to bring you to Myself.” Moses goes up in the mountain Aaron was invited up and ends up back with the people because he was more comfortable in the presence of people than in the presence of God. Aaron ends up building a calf, he forms it with an engraving tool. And they look at the calf and say “Behold Israel Elohim.” Now Elohim is found about 2,250 times in the Old Testament. About 250 times it’s a false God; 2000 times God Almighty. Elohim is the word used for God all through Genesis chapter one; I think it’s like 30 some occurrences. So you always have to read it in context. But then Aaron makes a statement about that calf “Tomorrow is a feast the Lord.” That word Lord that he uses there is Jehovah or Yahweh. That is the sacred name of God and the Hebrews wouldn’t even write the vowel. And so Aaron looks right at that calf and says “There is Yahweh who delivered us out of Egypt.” So he doesn’t deny that God delivered him out of Egypt; he doesn’t deny that God saved them; he doesn’t deny that He brought them through the water and fed them. He just has changed his image to now it’s Jehovah who’s going to give me what I want. Well when you look at Roman’s chapter 1 Paul says “In the last day people are going to change the image of God into an image of man or four footed beast.” Now we don’t worship four footed beasts in our society we worship human beings, mankind okay. So because you see the Egyptians worshiped four footed beasts; they had statues of calves all over the place so they were accustomed to that. But my question is “Are we serving the real Jesus at the right hand of the Father, or have we created an image of Jesus that will give me what I want; I can high five Him treat Him like “Hey Baby, what’s going on Jesus” and really not be the real Jesus but the one that we’ve made in an image that will give us whatever we want.
Sid: I am almost wondering the scripture comes to my mind John is “The love of most will grow cold in the last days.” Maybe it’s because of the misunderstood image of God.
John: Well let’s talk about that scripture “The love of many,” and the Greek word there many does mean most, means majority is what it means; “Will grow cold.” Well what causes it to grow cold is because lawlessness will abound.” What is lawlessness? Lawlessness is when we’re not submitted to the authority of God. So what happens is we pull ourselves out from His authority by creating a Jesus that will give me what I want so therefore he’s really not the Jesus of the right hand of the Father we have conveniently slipped out from under His authority but we still acknowledge He saved me, He died on the cross but is He the real Jesus at the right hand of the Father. That’s what we have to ask.
Sid: And that’s an honest fair question that each person has to ask themselves. John tell me in your words who is the Holy Spirit to you?
John: Well the Holy Spirit is the third person of the Godhead and He is my very closes friend on earth. I never would be talking to you on this program had it not been for the Holy Spirit. One of the things that deeply concerns me is that if you say Holy Spirit to a person they immediately want to talk about His manifestations, His gifts or power rather than talking about Him as a person. I personally am much more interested in knowing Him as a person before I know His power and manifestation. It’s kind of like this “If I meet a woman and I realize that this woman she is very very well known in the community; let’s say I’m a single man she is very wealthy and I want to marry her because I’ll get her wealth, I’ll get the popularity, I’ll get the power in the community to get things done rather than coming to know her first as a person. And so I think many have gotten their relationship with the Holy Spirit backwards. They’ll study out His manifestations, they’ll study out His gifts, they’ll talk about His power; talk about His manifestations which are all important, don’t get me wrong but they don’t first of all seek Him as a person.
Sid: Now you teach a lot about a word called communion is that what you’re talking about now?
John: Yeah, the word communion when I was a Catholic boy to me it was taking those wafers and sneaking the wine as an altar boy after the service. But that was not what communion means. The Greek word for Communion is the Greek word koinonia and it has many definitions but the major ones I highlight in the book are partnership and fellowship and intimacy. Now fellowship is interacting, it’s companionship. Sid can you imagine if you pick me up at the airport when I fly into do the television programs with you. Let’s say that you pick me up at Charlotte Airport and we got a 20 minute drive. I don’t way one word to you and you don’t say one word to me. Not “Hello” not “Good Morning;” not how’s your family; thank you for coming; nothing. That whole…we can’t even imagine that. I mean for people that are listening to us can you imagine carpooling with your neighbor and you drive 20 minutes to downtown Charlotte let’s say and you don’t say one word to them when they get into the car. Yet how many times do we drive 20 minutes and not say anything to the Holy Spirit?
Sid: Well I’ll tell you what we’re out of time right now. John, it’s a new book, new teachings, but what kind of feedback are you getting on your book “The Holy Spirit” and your teaching DVD’s and CDs?
John: You know what’s thrilling me; this is the greatest feedback even pastors have said this to me “My whole relationship with the Holy Spirit has changed my Christian life has become much more exciting and so much more full.”
Sid: What about people that are kind of opposed to the gifts of the Spirit for today, have any of those read your book and any feedback?
John: You know I was prepared for it but interesting enough because in the book I talk about Him as a person and I walk through and there’s tons of scriptures laid out in order in this book. I think what happened is a lot of them have seen Him as a person and it open’s them more up to His gifts and manifestation. And I also show because most people their reason for not knowing His manifestations today is they say that which is perfect has come.
Sid: Well we’ll pick up there on tomorrow’s broadcast.
Sid: Well I found out on yesterday’s broadcast that my friend James Goll who I’m interviewing this week had cancer. He had non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma cancer and was the prognosis fatal with this cancer from a medical viewpoint James?
James: Yeah they actually told me at the very beginning they said “No one has ever lived past 10 years is what they told me.” And I looked him straight in the eye and I said “You don’t know who you’re talking to.”
James: I told them right then that I’m not going to be the first and said “We’re going to break that and I have.”
Sid: And you know the interesting thing is that it came back 3 times. We found out that Oral Roberts prayed for you and that it’s never going to come back again. And how many years have it been?
James: It’s been at least 4 ½.
Sid: Okay, were you the last person Oral prayed for or saw?
James: I think so; I believe so it was in September in his home in Orange County and then he did go to be with the Lord early December.
Sid: Now of course when you had it the first time a friend of mine prayed for you and you had quite an encounter with the Lord. His name is Suprisa and he probably has prayed for more dead people that have come back to life than anyone that I have ever heard of, he’s African. Tell me what happened.
James: Yeah, it’s really quite amazing there’s always these little parables seems to be. Some months ahead of time the Holy Spirit spoke to me and He said “I want you to keep October in that particular year; I want you to keep it free I have a surprise” that’s what He said. “I have a surprise coming your way.” And I went oh, what is that? He didn’t tell me what it was; so I kept my October a little more fluid in my calendar so often I travel and it get’s filled up. So I kept October relatively free, and so Pastor Supraza but he also goes by Surprise. So he comes here to Nashville, Tennessee to minister.
Sid: And so that’s of course is your Surprise; but go ahead.
James: Yeah, yeah I know it was amazing. The Holy Spirit said ahead a time, I have a surprise for you.
Sid: How many people are named Surprise, not too many.
James: No, I mean really, give me a break; I mean only the Holy Spirit can do that and it was a play on words. And so He said, “I have a Surprise for you, so Supraza comes to Nashville that October” exactly the way the Lord said. And so I have a special time with him and he’s praying for me and when he does he enters into my actual body. He doesn’t only come on me and into my body. So as that’s happening I am like thrown into or I’m moved upon in such a manner that an open vision occurs. And this wow this heat was riveting in my body Jesus appears in a vision to me and He is standing like Revelation chapter 1 says “He had eyes the flames of fire.” And it talks about “His feet are burnished like with fire.” Well He describes Himself to me as the man of fire and as this heat fire is moving through my body the bloodstream it would stop and it would rest over my body and then it would move on. I actually started perspiring when this happened, and then Jesus in this open vision speaks to me and starts telling me some of the most amazing things I have ever heard. He said “With every wound I received I obtained a special of healing for My people.” So He starts taking me to these different wounds and He talks to me about how He was pierced through and that He obtained healing of the heart for every person. He takes me to the piercings of His hands and this was very fascinating and He said to me “Did you know that most diseases are transferred by the hands,” in other words like germs, things of this nature, bacteria and germs. And He said “I obtained healing so that every bacteria and every germ would be conquered.” He takes me to the crown of thorns on His head and He said to me “I obtained through this wounding the healing of every mental illness known to mankind.” He turns to His back and I see the riveting of the 39 lashes upon His back and it was almost devastating appearing looking at this. Then every one of these stripes with His wounds that Jesus’ back was lacerated there were names that were written in all of these 39 stripes. And I remembered that there was like tuberculosis and leukemia and many different things were named in these stripes of Jesus. It was absolutely incredible, He takes me to His feet where He was pierced and said “I obtained healing for cripples through the wounds that I received. And that heat riveted through my body and I actually was cleansed and had a healing that occurred right at that time. I had actually doing radiation treatments and I went back to the doctor at that time, and I said “I’m healed, I know I’m healed.” And I was actually able to stop the radiation treatments right at that time didn’t even finish them. Because they did tests and it showed that the cancer that it was not active at that point.
Sid: With this information that you know that this is revelation, only God could have told you this and He did. How do we go from intellectually understanding and we all understood what you said to having it manifest in our bodies?
James: Well that’s a good one you know because for all of us it’s a walk of faith and there’s a walk of study let yourself approved. You know the scriptures that you’re a workman unto God and all of that. And so decreeing the things is really important.
Sid: Give me an example, how would you decree a thing as a matter of fact why don’t you decree something over people with cancer right now.
James: Great and you know what you have received you have authority to give away so I agree. So right now in the Name of the Lord of Host, in the Name of Jesus that One Name that is above every Name I release and decree every tumor in peoples bodies shall shrink in the Name of Jesus. And the fire of the Lord will come you even now and it’ll bring supernatural cleansing to toxins and to diseases that are in your body. So right now what I see, is I see tumors, and I command tumors to dry up; I command you to breakup, I command you to dissolve and never return again, in Jesus Name. The Book of Job says “You will decree a thing and it will be established.” And so as I receive I declare and the Holy Spirit gave me a dream and He said “I am sending forth something greater than radiation treatments; I’m sending forth Holy Spirit treatments to heal people of cancer. So I speak Holy Spirit fire treatments upon people right now; any form of cancer; so I speak Holy Spirit treatments to come upon you and to drive the cancer out in Jesus Name.
Sid: Boy, I can feel the presence, in fact even before you prayed I felt the special presence of God and almost said James, what’s going on your the prophet but something was going on even before you prayed. And I believe that we’re going to get reports from all over the world that heard that prayer that are going to be set free. And as a matter of fact you want to go on our web page if you know someone with cancer and have them listen to this particular radio show. Now James, I am fascinated by how many supernatural experiences you’ve had. You operate in all of the gifts of the Spirit, but why in your book did you not just talk about all of these amazing experiences and you primarily stuck line upon line for how to live a supernatural life from the Bible? Why did you take that approach, what was your reason?
James: One of the things that I’m really burdened about today is that in the earlier Charismatic Movement, which you and I were both a part of was a teaching movement. In today’s wonderful supernatural culture that exist the teaching element is a little weaker today. So I’m finding the need to ground people in the word of God. Because, here’s the deal we need to solid in the words, and then when the devil comes around he can’t steal what God has given because then we can declare like Jesus said “It is written, man does not live by bead alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.” We live by the ever proceeding word that comes forth from the mouth of God. So this wonderful new book that Bill Johnson wrote the forward for “Living a Supernatural Life” it has 200 scripture references in it because I want us to be grounded, grounded, grounded; have tools that are effective weapons of warfare and then we got to learn to declare the word, speak the word, pray the word, declare the word. And so I’ve done this in this manner so that I want you out there; I want you to have tools in your hands; I want you to be encouraged.
SID: I am absolutely amazed at the statistics of people that are in hopeless situations, whether it has to do with their employment, whether it has to do with their family, whether it has to do with their health, whether it has to do with just past things that they’ve been stuffed down and it’s just popping up now. It’s a spirit. Dutch, tell me some of those statistics of hopelessness.
DUTCH: You know, I was shocked, too, Sid. I found these things staggering. The divorce rate in the last 30 years has risen 300 percent, two and half million people every year, 50 percent of first time marriages, 60 percent of remarriages. When they try it again, it still doesn’t work. The pressures are overwhelming, a million children a year affected by new divorces. Fatherless homes, this was staggering to me, 63 percent of youth suicides are directly connected to being raised in a fatherless home. Ninety percent of runaway homeless children and 85 percent of youths in prison because they don’t have a father. People are looking for that security and hope. Nineteen million adults have a depressive disorder. It is the leading cause of disability in America, depression. The youth suicide rate has tripled in the last 35 years. It is the third leading, the third leading cause of death among young people in America is suicide. Twenty-five percent of high schoolers seriously consider suicide every year, a fourth of them. Psychiatric admissions account for 25 percent, a fourth, of all hospital admissions, suicide, depression, 25 percent. Even our spiritual leaders are not immune from this. Seventy percent of pastors said they constantly fight depression. Eighty percent of adult children of pastors seek professional help for depression. Fifty percent of pastors said they would leave the ministry if they could, but they don’t know how they would survive.
SID: That is—
DUTCH: Staggering isn’t it?
SID: Everything coming out of your mouth, it shows you how what critical times we’re living in.
DUTCH: It’s amazing.
SID: What does the Bible say about a term called “hope deferred”?
DUTCH: Hope deferred, it say,s makes the heart sick. If you think about what happens with physical heart disease, you lose your energy, you get tired. Eventually you’ll die. You can’t run. That’s what happens when hope deferred sets in. It doesn’t just affect your mind. It affects your body. You know, serious depression they’re now saying is the equivalent to smoking a pack of cigarettes a day. It takes a toll on your physical heart, but then again, your emotional heart, it affects. You can’t dream. You don’t eat. You don’t run the race of life. You quit looking at the future with hope. You can’t have faith. Hope deferred is the common cold of the soul. You can’t go through life without experiencing setbacks. You’re going to be hit with something: loss of a loved one, a disease, you lose your job, your marriage.
SID: What are stages, briefly, of hope deferred? And I believe you’re going to recognize you’re actually in some of these stages.
DUTCH: Well the first stage is simply discouragement. You know, you just get slammed by this and discouragement sets in. If you don’t deal with that, the next phase you come to is confusion. You just get disoriented. How did this happen? What do I do? What do I latch on to now for hope? And then of course, if that doesn’t stop, unbelief sets in. Now you’re in trouble because your trust is wavering and your connection with the Lord begins to waver. The next step if that isn’t checked is disillusionment. That’s what happened to me in my life. I became disillusioned. I don’t know if I believe in this God. I don’t know what I believe any more. I just don’t know. And then of course, the real killer, bitterness sets in. Once you become bitter, you just, you’re just a target for the enemy. He just begins to steal your health, he steals your joy and in the last phase, and I certain came into this, is simply cynicism. You just don’t believe anything anymore. That’s where I was. People talked to me about God. I don’t want to hear it. I don’t believe this stuff anymore. Completely cynical, hopeless, cynical.
SID: Tell me about how your brother observed a heart surgery. Tell me what he found out.
DUTCH: This is the most amazing story I think I’ve ever heard. He was actually allowed to go into the operating room and stand at the head of the patient, actually three of them. He had a heart surgeon in his congregation and he watched them over the person, take the heart, work on it, and they actually would sometimes disconnect it from the arteries, take it out, work on it and hook the person up to a machine that would do the work of the heart. When they were finished, they would reconnect everything, they had to get the heart beating again. And everything worked fine until the last patient. And he didn’t know exactly what was happening, but he could tell they’re trying to get this heart to beat. And tension, you could feel the tension start to come into the operating room. Finally, he realized they can’t get this heart beating. And in desperation when they exhausted all of their methods, the lead surgeon leaned down to this obviously unconscious person, whispered in her ear and said, “Ma’am, I need your help. We can’t get your heart to beat. Please tell your heart to beat again.”
SID: This is an unconscious person.
DUTCH: Obviously. Can’t hear naturally. Instantly, the heart began boom-boom, boom-boom. And the surgeon, all the people around the table looked up at each other. He looked at them and just kind of went, and they went on with the surgery, and he of course realized, that’s what we have to do with our emotions, with our spiritual heart.
SID: Tell me what God has shown you based on that story and the power of choice.
DUTCH: Oh you know, that’s where it all starts. God said to me, “Listen son, I know it’s not your fault that you are in this condition. You didn’t know. You didn’t know how to deal with this. I’m not angry with you that you turned to these things. But it will be your decision if you remain this way because I’m here to heal you.” And I had to activate my will and say, I’m going to choose to live again. I’m going to choose to dream again. I’m going to choose to not allow this to define me. I’m going to let God define who I am. Alcohol is not who I am. Depression is not who I am. Anger is not who I am. And I made a choice. Now I wasn’t in denial because when we make a choice God’s life, God’s power, God’s energy is activated in us and all He needs is us to make that choice, and His power comes along and gives us the ability to do it. It’s not denial. It’s denying the right of that circumstance to control my life through to believe God can turn things around for me.
SID: It’s the supernatural belief in the supernatural God. It’s not natural. And when we come back, we’re going to talk about the third great awakening, and Dutch has literally seen it, and he’s going to describe what he saw, and it’s starting right now.
SID: Welcome. Welcome to my world where it’s naturally supernatural. You know, some 40 years ago, as a brand new Jewish believer in the Messiah, I was exposed to a woman by the name of Kathryn Kuhlman. And I have to tell you, the miracles I saw there I haven’t seen to that degree since. But all the way in Australia God raised up another Kathryn that is moving in those same miracles. But here’s the difference. She’s not only moving in these miracles, she’s teaching everyone she can to move in the same miracles. Do you want to? Me, too. So Kathrine walks by people and they get healed. I mean, this is outrageous what’s going with her. I have found out some of the things she does that causes God to smile on her, and that’s what’s happening. Tell me about the woman that you were praying for that walks up there, you’re going to pray for hearing and you notice she has no ear. Tell me about her.
KATHERINE: Well I had a word of knowledge in a meeting here in the U.S. of a lady that I said, “There’s someone here that needs their hearing restored.” And we’ve seen many deaf ears open and I expected someone with a deaf ear to come forward. But the lady who came forward had no ear. It had been cut off, the eardrum had been removed because of a cancerous tumor. And she came forward all with her face lit up and faith just knowing God was touching her.
SID: I want you to get this straight. This is no ear, no eardrum and she’s coming forward to restore her hearing. I just want to make sure you got that. Go ahead.
KATHERINE: Well I didn’t quite know what to think. I thought well perhaps God might restore her hearing, grow an eardrum overnight. That was about the level I thought my faith was at. And sometimes when I’m with the power of God my right hand will start tremble. And I went to go lay my hand on her, and the Lord said, “Put your left hand on her.” And I thought, oh Lord, I need all the help I can get. But I did and then as I prayed for her, the Lord just whispered to me, He said, “Ask her if she can hear.” And she swung her head around and said, “Yes!” And I said, “Really?” It was so extraordinary. And you know, the Glory just fell. So many miracles happened that night. We saw cataracts disappear in front of our eyes. People with crippled fingers had their fingers straightened out. You know, God, He is more willing to do miracles than we have faith to see it happen.
SID: And you know what’s so wonderful? Here he goes to Australia, he puts his finger on a woman abused as a child, all sorts of fears in their life, and traumas. So she watches TV, she sees movies and she knows that Hollywood says you get married to the right man and everything works out perfect. That’s what Hollywood says. However, we know better than Hollywood does, because Katherine had the same fears even after she married her Prince Charming. Her fears now were even compounded. She was afraid he was going to die. So one day, she asked God to do three things. Tell me the three things.
KATHERINE: I was driving in the car on the way to a meeting and I thought, I’ll talk to the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit, the Bible tells me, he’s my teacher and my helper. So I thought, well I’m going to try this. And I said, “Well Holy Spirit, could you teach me about the falling down thing.” I had seen people fall down under the power of God in the meetings and I thought, I didn’t know whether they just fell down out of courtesy or whether they were pushed. But if it was the power of God I genuinely wanted to know. So I believe in asking for help. God is so good at helping us. So I asked Him, could you teach me about that. And I said, “And I have this little ganglion cyst on my wrist. Would you heal me of that?” I said. “And would you take away the fear that I have that my husband would die?” I was just a new bride and I just got this man to sign a piece of paper to say he was going to love me until he died. And then you know, coming from a background of insecurity and abandonment issues, I was so worried that now the next thing this one that finally has [committed] to love me might die. And so I said, “Set me free from this fear.” I didn’t realize it was the tip of a huge iceberg. But it was an invitation, an invitation for the Holy Spirit to come and do incredible work.
SID: What happened?
KATHERINE: Well I went to the meeting that night and they invited forward people for prayer, and I just sort of slipped in on the end. And I lifted my hands, and the preacher was right at the other end, and bang, the power of the Holy Spirit touched me. I was knocked to the floor, no catchers, and I trembled under the power of God.
SID: He didn’t even push you down.
KATHERINE: He didn’t even come and pray for me. Eventually, he came to me and he said, “Pick her up.” And then he said, “Oppression go.” I was on the floor again. And right during that time, I saw the face of Jesus right in front of me. He said, “Katherine, I’m setting you free from everything.” And you know, God so delivered me and set me free.
SID: So what happened to the cyst?
KATHERINE: Well I didn’t, I wasn’t even thinking about the cyst because that was such an incredible encounter with God. But when I got home, it was gone. And the scripture says, “I sought the Lord and He heard me, and delivered me from all my fears.” And that’s what He did that night. So sovereignly, He let love come in and replaced my fears.
SID: So then a few days later, you got some more deliverance.
KATHERINE: Well you know, I really believe that it’s so important that we continually present our need to God. And I just went forward on another altar call. It was a message about shame. I thought, oh that applies to me. So I went forward. And as I was just waiting for people to come and pray, a few people came past and prayed, the Holy Spirit said, “Just stay here.” So I kept staying there and he began to show me a vision. And the first part of the vision, I saw myself as a child with my head on the Father’s lap, and he’s stroking my hair like this. And I never had someone do that for me. And then the next vision, I saw myself as a little girl with this really ugly face. And then I saw that face just peel off like a mask and float away. And then I saw this picture of this beautiful woman walking in the heavens and she was dressed in the most beautiful robes. Really the only way I could describe her was she clothed in dignity. And as I was looking at this vision, the Lord said, from behind me I heard Him say, “That’s you.” And I fell on the floor again. And you know, when I got up, God had done in me what no psychiatrist could ever have done. He restored my dignity. He restored my identity and He showed me that I was His beloved daughter, that He would be there to meet all my needs for love, affection. And yeah, He truly is my best friend.
SID: When we come back, I believe that miracles are going to erupt of a magnitude you have never seen before. Don’t you dare go away.
Sid: My guest is red hot for the Messiah, his name is Keith Clark I’m speaking to him at his office in Tampa, Florida where he’s Prayer Director for Set Free Ministries. We’re making available the book of the leader of set free ministries Molly D’Andrea. It’s called “Set Free” true accounts of those that have been liberated from pornography, sexual addiction, masturbation, rape, molestation, incest, lesbianism, and homosexuality. Unfortunately this problem is not getting less, it’s getting more. Unfortunately we find this in the church because people don’t know how to be set free. This book will tell you:
- Many testimonies of people that were set free to give you encouragement.
- That the problem is not you, that it’s a spiritual entity that it really isn’t you it isn’t the person that God created, there is a hope there is a way to be set free and to stay free….
I have on the telephone Keith Clark and we found out that Keith was a drag queen, he was a male prostitute. He was a practicing homosexual, he got into drugs but God when he overdosed revealed Himself to him and said that “He was saved for a purpose.” And he came back to consciousness from a coma. What were the first words that you said when you came out of a coma?
Keith: Jesus, Jesus, Jesus those were the first 3 words that I spoke when I came out of that coma.
Sid: And then your ex-step mother was involved in the deliverance and getting you set free, tell me about that.
Keith: Well a couple of years later from that point like I told you I was on the streets selling myself because I didn’t have people to disciple me or people to help me out. So I did lapse back into my homosexuality, I did lapse back into the sin. And because I didn’t know how to be set free. I was on the corner praying and begging for God to help me and my sister came and picked me up on the street corner and asked me if I wanted to go to my stepmother’s house, Lynn’s house, to be with her because she wanted to go over for prayer. And I said “Sure, I’ll go with you and I’ll support you Debbie.” And we went to her house and Lynn did counsel with her but then she came in and said “Keith you’re not here for Debbie you’re here for yourself and God wants you to be here and to stay here. At that point and time I had such a drug addiction that my veins in my body had collapsed. I shot up in places that we won’t even mention, and I thought “Well this is a place to hide out. I wasn’t going to buy the God’s stuff because I had tried the God’s stuff. I had also tried people tell me that they would help me and then turn on me and I knew that that was… I just thought that that was no way even after the experience I’d had with the coma and stuff. Because I couldn’t get out of my mind that I couldn’t really be set free. Well needless to say for lack of time I’ll just skip over and say that Lynn ministered with me for 6 months nonstop and I read the word of God. I read Psalms the 10 chapters of Psalms for 3 months every night I read those Psalms. I read and I prayed and I prayed and sought God. After being with Lynn for just 2 nights I woke up after she prayed deliverance over me that the drug addiction totally gone, the veins in my body totally healed. God did such a miraculous thing. I had to get rid of everything that had to do with that lifestyle. And Lynn instructed me on that. The next day a guy showed up with everything I needed from underclothes all the way to shaving equipment and didn’t know why but he just felt led by God to bring this box of stuff and it was everything I needed. The following night a woman showed up at the door who was the same woman who was praying for me when I was in the hospital and interceding with me that night. She spoke with the same British accent as the angel spoke. I fell on my knees because right then I knew that God is real and that there was a chance for me. I proceeded to study the word of the Living God and to feed upon the word and eat it day and night. I became a new creature in Christ.
Sid: How long have you been free Keith?
Keith: I’ve been free for oh my at least 25 years.
Sid: Now you’ve devoted your life to helping others with similar problems and any sexual problems to be set free. Out of curiosity, tell me the most dramatic case you know of someone you were involved in getting set free.
Keith: Well after I got set free God had us open a house, and I literally went to the same place and the same corner where I stood and went to minister to people and we’d take them off of the corner and bring them to this house.
Sid: Where you were a male prostitute?
Keith: Yes, in Tampa Florida and we help these people. One guy that we did pick up he was so bad that he had bugs in his hair. He had been on the streets for so long and had been prostituting himself so long that it’s just indescribable. We took him, picked him up. I told him I’d give him $20 if he would just give me 15 minutes of his time I didn’t want to have sex with him but I just wanted to talk to him about my lover that I had had found. And I proceeded to tell him about Jesus Christ the Son of the Living God and tell him how much of a lover he was and could be to him and set him free. Well after a series of deliverance sessions and stuff… this man has such demonic spirits that he literally could read the word of God and backwards and then forwards, he could read one verse and then tell me that verse and know it’s a photographic memory and mind. And he just howled at the moon, I mean this guy needed deliverance so badly. That’s how God taught me how to pray for deliverance for people with working with this man. He was totally delivered, totally set free. He is now living a wonderful life with his wife and has 3 children, has never ever ever gone back into any kind of sexual perversion that I’m aware of. And would tell you today if you were talking to him that he has definitely been set free.
Sid: Keith I have to ask you a difficult question; are you just controlling your desire to be a woman, your desire for homosexuality or are you really free?
Keith: I’ve been asked that question by several men and several woman and if you could only see and know the before and after that question would not have to be asked. But to answer that question I can tell you definitely without a doubt, without any kind of hesitation that Jesus Christ has totally and completely set me free from homosexuality and drug addictions. Am I perfect, have arrived to the perfect state of mind, perfect state of man that the Bible would say like Jesus Christ. No, probably not before I stand before our Father. But I can tell you this that there is no temptation, there is no sexual addictions drawing us to any kind of man. And I’m very blessed and very pleased with my manhood and my identity in Christ.
Sid: You said that the best way to be set free and to stay free has to do with staying in the word, explain that.
Keith: Well we hear a lot today about formulas, we hear a lot about “You should do this, you should do that, but this is this, and this is that.” Trust me, as Paul said “I’m the chief among sinners” I can say I’m a chief among formulas. I’ve tried formulas left and right, backwards and forwards trying to be set free from homosexuality to try to be set free from this thing that plagued by mind. Because afterwards the mind has to be renewed after the deliverance. I only know of one way to be set free and it’s not a formula it’s a relationship with Jesus Christ. Formulas are good for the mind, they’re good to teach the mind, they’re good to renew the mind. The word of God is the best formula that anybody could ever have or do. That’s why I encourage reading the word, but relationship is a heart matter and that’s where. If you can get your relationship with Father right, then He will write the word of the Living God upon your heart and upon your mind and He will cause you to keep it.
Sid: Is there anyone anywhere with these kind of addictions if they want to be set free can be?
Keith: Oh yes, anyone anywhere can be set free from this at any time that they call out on the Lord Jesus.
Sid: We want everyone everywhere to be red hot for the Messiah. So what’s the deal, are you red hot, are you lukewarm, or are you cold? Well you know lukewarm is worse than cold, when your cold you know your cold, when you’re lukewarm your deceived. Guess what, if your lukewarm Jesus says and this is in the Greek, in the Book of Revelation the word of God says “If you’re lukewarm I will vomit you out of my mouth.” Listen, this is the wrap up. This is time that all of the prophets and all of the wonderful men and woman of old whose shoulders we’re standing on that we’ve been waiting for. It’s the time of the great harvest and it’s the time to be free. Now there’s many people that I’m speaking to right now that are not free in one or more areas of their life. There’s a specific area that I want to deal with this week, it has to do with eating disorders such as anorexia, bulimia, binge eating, and gluttony. You know gluttony is the acceptable Christian sin but sin is sin. And I have on the telephone Nancy Alcorn. I’m speaking to her at her office in Nashville, Tennessee. I’m interviewing her on her new book titled “Mercy for Eating Disorders – True stories of Hope and Real Answers for Healing and Freedom.” And I cannot pronounce her name Nancy. Darlene…
Nancy: Darlene Zschech like a check mark.
Sid: That’s it, Darlene Zschech you’re familiar with her from the Hillsong music this is what she says. “I personally know several young girls who the principles found in this book have been set free after near death from anorexia and bulimia. Mercy for eating disorders is so timely reminding us that freedom from an eating disorder is possible. I thank God for Nancy who on these pages is willing to tell the truth.” Now Nancy Alcorn, for my knowledge and listener’s knowledge how rampant are eating disorders today?
Nancy: Well they’re extremely rapid in fact it’s getting to the point that it’s almost like an epidemic breaking out. I travel not just in America but in other countries such as New Zealand, Australia and England and it’s the same thing everywhere. Young girls in junior high, high school, college and now even in some elementary school children….
Sid: I couldn’t believe last month on USA Today they’re talking about special fashion shops to glamorize little 5 & 6 year olds, I mean I think the whole deal is getting out of hand.
Nancy: It is, it’s leading right into this issue and causing it just to become more and more rampant.
Sid: Now you said something in the introduction to your book that is so fascinating to me I want to read this. First you spoke about anorexia, bulimia, binge eating and then you said “This issue has been explained as an evolution of self-medication that in years past manifested itself in alcoholism, then transformed into drug use in the ’70s, and now is evident in eating disorders.” I never thought about that before but I think that you’re really on to something there.
Nancy: Well you know I think that it’s just another ploy of Satan to try to destroy lives and he uses whatever he can. And there are girls out that are part of youth groups that go to church every Sunday that wouldn’t think about doing drugs or alcohol but they have got caught up with this whole thing of self-image and not dealing, numbing pain and trying to be in control. And a lot of girls who have suffered from eating disorders there’s 1 out of 3 you can relay it back to sexual abuse, and the whole control issue and the way they see themselves and all kind of stuff. It’s just so many things that play into it.
Sid: Now you originally were involved in secular social work, government programs but you got very frustrated, why?
Nancy: Well the reason I was frustrated was because I worked in the government system in the state of Tennessee and I was told that I could not share Jesus Christ, separation of church and state. And here I am knowing that government changes behavior but only Jesus Christ could put a new heart and a new Spirit in us. And when there’s a heart change behavior change is an automatic byproduct of that and yet the One that could change the heart I was told I couldn’t talk about. So knowing that the word of God says that “The Spirit of the Lord God is upon us because God has anointed us to heal broken hearts, to set captives free, to open up the prison of them that are bound.” Then to have the answer and be told “You can’t share that” so I saw kids leave that place 300 kids at any one period of time locked up for a year sent by Juvenile Court Judges and I saw kids leave the place from drug overdoses, killed in street gang fights, some past the age of 18 and ended up in the woman’s prison. Some felt so hopeless that they went out and committed suicide. And it was out of that that I became so frustrated that I began to cry out to God to show me a better way.
Sid: Out of curiosity you founded in 1983 that better way “Mercy Ministries” in which you you’ve seen 1000’s of young women between 13 and 28 rescued from really certain destruction. What results are you really getting, there’s a lot of women that have gone through those door?
Nancy: Right, well you know the thing that’s so incredible is we can’t… I’d love to say that it’s because Mercy Ministries is so great that these lives are changing. We actually are getting changed lives because God is so great and God is so good and He sent a Savior who could put a new heart and a new spirit in us. And when we have a way a message of hope and freedom where we can say to them Jeremiah 29 verse 11 “These are the plans that I have for you declares the Lord, plans to prosper you not to harm you and to give you hope and a future.” And God “You’re not a mistake, you were born for a purpose, God does have an individual plan for your life. And the past does not have to destroy your future, there’s nothing you’ve done that God will not forgive you for and God promised He’ll never leave you and He’ll never forsake you.” And we just really basically try to take all of the negative out and try to see themselves the way that God sees them. To be born again, to be filled with God’s Spirit, to understand God’s plan and purpose for their life, and to have their minds renewed to the word of God. And then that’s where the real transformation process begins as they renew their minds it’s Romans 12:2 “Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you can prove what is good, acceptable and perfect will of God.” So that’s what changes the lives, I mean mercy creates an environment where that happens but it’s really Christ who is the heart and the life changer. And because what He’s done for us all ready and girls receiving that and getting a revelation of it. And knowing that they are the righteousness of God in Christ, they’ve been forgiven and that then having the slate wiped clean and being able to start over, being born again. Then they can go forward and that’s why it works.
Sid: But Nancy you have this wonderful facility, and I’m sure you must even have waiting lists of people to get into it. Is that why you wrote your book, for those that perhaps can’t come?
Nancy: That’s absolutely true, we do have a waiting list of girls waiting to get into our facilities, we’re in the process of opening new facilities. There are 2 reasons, 2 primary reasons that were in my heart about writing the book. One is just about what you just said “We wrote this eating disorder book in such a way that girls would not have to come to a place called Mercy Ministries but they would come to a God of mercy who this place is named in honor of. We wanted to write it with the principles of freedom contained on the pages so that anyone who chooses to read this and apply it to their life with God’s help that they can overcome whatever they’re facing. And the second thing I wanted to do with is book is to expose the lies of the experts of the world who say that this is a disease that you cannot overcome that you just have to learn to cope. I wanted also to take our girls at free of charge because we want them to know that our love for them is pure, that our love is unconditional, that we’re not trying to make money off their problem, that we genuinely care. And we believe that they can be free but there is an industry going on in the name of treatment out there that charges some places $2000 a day for these girls to come. And as soon as their parents run out of money or their insurance runs out you know the same people that said they cared they don’t care anymore because that beds got to make money.
Sid: It’s a quick fix but they don’t get a changed life.
Nancy: Exactly, and so I wanted to expose that too, that freedom is possible and that there are a lot of people are being I believe taken advantage of financially by being told your “Daughters going to die if you don’t come here and get this help. And then they get all their money and they’re still not better.”
Sid: Put some flesh on the bones, take one specific person very briefly and tell me about a particular girl that was set free.
Nancy: Okay, well there’s a young girl that came in to the program and she had… I’ll tell you about one from just probably 2 years ago. Her parents were told by the sales department at this Eating Disorder Clinic that’s well renown that if they’re daughter weighed about 70 pounds, I think about 68 pounds at the time and very very thin and very much in a life threatening situation and just getting worse and worse and worse. And her parents were told if they didn’t use their retirement money, they’d saved $100,000 was all their retirement money, if they didn’t spend that to get that to get their daughter help. Because they didn’t have any more insurance, they had already exhausted all of that. If they didn’t spend that she would certainly die. So they spent their whole retirement and when they’re daughter graduated from the program Mercy Ministries, because she went through their program and she didn’t get the help she needed and she called us she was back at the same weight that she was before she went into that treatment program. And when she came into ours, while she was here about 6 or 8 months and she just needed to deal with the issues inside of her heart that she had never dealt with. And there were things internally that she needed help with. And so our counseling department pointed her to Christ, pointed her to the word of God, pointed her to God’s healing process. And it was a process of her working through things and making things right with people in her family that had heart her, and some other individuals in her life. But over a period of time her parents came and stood at her graduation and tears streaming down their face by this time because she weighed about 115 pounds and just absolutely beautiful girl. And she’s now back in college and doing great.
Sid: And you know Nancy when you see that and you contrast it with some clinics where people pay $2000 a day sometimes they keep the young person for 6 months, the parents go bankrupt literally….
Sid: My guest Katherine Ruonala has been granted an extraordinary miracle ministry, but the thing that I love about her miracle ministry is she wants to give it away she doesn’t want to keep it for herself. She has so many young people on her ministry teams and people of all ages that are doing exactly what she’s doing. But she has, I don’t know Katherine if I can say you either stumbled into it or somehow you got a revelation of the love of God which releases the miraculous. So on yesterday’s broadcast you’re a young mother, you’re filled with all sorts of insecurities fear, shame from abuse that you had as a child. You were a believer, you loved the Lord, you loved your husband, you loved your family but you still had those problems inside. So you asked God 3 questions:
- “What is this falling down, are they really being shoved down, is that really You God doing it?”
- “I’ve got a cyst on my wrist and I want to get rid of it.”
- “God if I could be free from this fear it would be so wonderful.”
So you get to the meeting Katherine and what happened?
Katherine: Well the pastor had suggested the people fast and pray for a healing. So I hadn’t done that, I’d not thought about it until dinner time and so I’d just had read a scripture and thought maybe that will be alright. He called peopled forward at the end of the meeting who needed prayer for healing. And I didn’t feel like I fully qualified but I thought I’d just slip on the end. And I lifted up my hands and right there the power of God came and I found myself on the floor with the power of God just touching me so amazingly. Finally the pastor came to me and picked me up and he just said “Oppression go!” “Bang” I was all over the floor again and during that time I saw the face of Jesus right in front of me and He spoke to me. And He said “Katherine, I’m setting you free from everything.” And unbeknownst to me the fear that I had that my husband would die was just a tip of a huge iceberg of insecurity and rejection and abandonment. And right there God came and He did such a deep work of deliverance that when I finally got up off the floor an hour later I was different, I was free. And the following week there was another meeting and a message about shame. And so I went forward to and I felt like I related to that. I thought the Lord just asked me to keep staying there and I began to look and the Lord began to show me a vision. I saw myself as a little child with my head on the Father’s lap and He was stroking my hair and I’d never had an experience like that. And then I saw myself as a child with this really ugly face and the ugly face just peeled off like a mask and floated away. And then I saw myself… I saw this woman walking in the heavens clothed in the most beautiful robes. And the only way that I could really describe her is that she was clothed in dignity. And then the Lord said “That’s you.” And then I fell on the floor again.
Katherine: And those 2 experiences God set me free from the deep fears and the insecurities. And just began to show me that the desire that He has to fill my need for love.
Sid: So this shame you had was replaced with what you just described, you had your dignity back.
Katherine: That’s so true. The scripture says “Those that look to Him are radiant and their faces are never covered with shame.” And that’s the reality of every day God wants to look at us and lift up our heads, He’s the glory and the lifter of our heads. It’s like the blessing in Numbers chapter 6 “He lifts up His countenance upon us.” The Lord wants to make His face shine on us.” And in His presence His perfect love just cast out fear and causes us to just shine with the love of God.
Sid: Well after that experience I would imagine people even looked at you and said “You look different.”
Katherine: You know they did, I had people come up to me that had not seen me for some time and they said “What’s happened to you, you look so different?” Because everything about me from the inside out changed; I began to walk differently and my faith began to be activated. Being delivered and having the Holy Spirit touch me like that I began to be able to trust God in ways I’d never experienced before. Because faith as you said “Works by love.” We’re not expected to have faith in somebody that we don’t personally know and I just truly believe that God wants to develop such an intimacy with us that we can easily have faith in Him because we know how much He cares for us. We understand His nature; the Bible tells us that “Those that know their God shall be strong and do great exploits.”
Sid: Now just out of curiosity you knew what you were dealing with all of these years; you knew some of the things that caused it. Had you had psychiatric help for these problems or the deep shame and everything?
Katherine: Well I kept it a secret for so many years and then when somebody asked me about it and the secrets started to come out I panicked and my whole body started misbehaving. They even did exploratory surgery to try to figure out what was going wrong with me. People suggested that I go and get counseling and the last thing I wanted to do was go and talk about it.
Sid: So you’re saying instantly on the floor a few minutes of God’s Spirit was better than 15 years of psychoanalysis?
Katherine: It’s so true and you know I value medical professionals but the reality is God did for me in a moment what a hundred psychologists could never had done. He restored my identity, He restored my dignity and He showed me in a way that nobody else could the value that He has for me and the love that He has for me. And I tell you God knows how to restore our soul.
Sid: Now something else I find interesting is after that encounter the prophetic started operating with words and visions; and you began to hear God clearer than you ever did before.
Katherine: This is so true and it was wonderful and the call of God came on my life. Previously I hadn’t had a thought of preaching, ministering, of healing the sick and all of a sudden God began to unlock the prophetic anointing; He began to give me visions. For many days I would find myself groaning on the floor as He was giving me visions of what He would have me to do in the future. And I journaled these things and the promises of God and everything began to change. I believe Holy Spirit had commissioned me because He had won my heart. And I had tasted of Him and the Bible says “Taste and see that the Lord is good.” I know that when you start to taste of God everything changes because you begin to realize this is what I’m created for; I am created for fellowship with God; I am created to be used by God and I believe that’s for everybody listening. In fact even as somebody’s listening today I see a woman who is listening to this and God is stirring you on the inside and saying “I’ve created you for miracles, I’ve created you to shine through you.” In fact He’s been polishing you up to shine like a star in the universe. He wants to pull it out of you; He wants you to look up at Him and know that He has a destiny and a future for you.
Sid: Tell me one of the first miracles that happened after this encounter.
Katherine: Well I had the opportunity to share at a meeting and a lady came forward for prayer. She was a sweet lady and she said “I’m a Baptist,” and she was beautiful and said “I have a tumor and could you please pray for me?” And so I said “Sure.” And as I went to pray for her the Holy Spirit touched her and she fell on the floor. And she said “She felt the hand of God go into her belly for a time.” And I went away afterwards I was traveling and came back 6 weeks later to a flurry of excitement. This was somebody that many people knew and unbeknownst to me this lady had been in for an operation before she came for prayer and doctors had discovered a 6 inch tumor wrapped around her pancreas; and they tried to operate but discovered it was inoperable. And she also had cirrhosis of the liver, but when I came back 6 weeks later she had had a barrage of tests they discovered there was no longer any trace of a tumor; there was no trace of cancer and she had a new liver. And I was so amazed because I didn’t know any of the other details, but when she gave God an opportunity to come and take the tumor God restored her body. As a result her husband got saved; she was completely made whole and so for me it was such a delight and a joy we didn’t have to try to make things happen; we just have to let God move through us and He does exceedingly abundantly above all we could ask, hope or imagine.
Sid: And that’s the key that I’m getting as I’m reading your book; what you basically say is “As you learn to be a gateway that God Himself can step right through that it’s not you healing anyone,” it’s not even you having enough faith to muster-up. And how would you muster-up enough faith if someone wanted to be prayed that had no eardrum you know. But God can do it through you. And she has understood a revelation of God’s love which is going to open that door for you.
Sid: We want everyone everywhere to be hit with the power of God, slammed against the wall because that’s what happened to my guest. I mean he’s minding he’s own business he’s a nice American Baptist Pastor. He feels nothing, he sees nothing, and all of a sudden the whole spirit world opens up to him. He gets equipped with a supernatural gift of discernment. Where he’s just praying for people there are words of knowledge as to what’s happened in their past that just opens them up for the deliverance. They could be in years of Christian counseling and not be set free. He’s found that this anointing is transferable and you can understand the gift of discernment. He says that this is key for the last days so that we not be deceived. And the thing that really intrigued me on yesterday’s interview Paul was… we were talking about teenagers, the hope of the church literally. And you were at a meeting with teenagers and you started praying for them and all of a sudden something happened to you, what was that?
Dr. Paul L. Cox: Yes I was doing youth group and I felt an unusual thing happening to me for 3 days before. On my head I felt like someone took their knuckle and put it on my head and it kept on happening repeatedly. I actually timed it, it was happening about every 90 seconds.
Sid: All day long?
Dr. Paul L. Cox: All day long for about 3 days.
Sid: At night too?
Dr. Paul L. Cox: At night too. I could not figure out what this was. We then got to Wednesday night to the time when we were praying when we had a youth meeting. And about 6:30 before the meeting start I started sensing something really unusual happening in the spirit. At 7:00 the kids came and I felt that I was supposed to lay hands and pray for this one teenage boy and I did that but then the power of God hit me and I fell down on my back and the power of God started coming up through my feet. It was so intense I literally was flopping like a fish. There was a brand new Christian who was sitting right next to me and the power was so strong on him he was pushed against the wall and his eyes were as big as a quarter as he was trying to understand what was going on. This continued for a half an hour I had all of this power on me.
Sid: What was going on with the other teenagers?
Dr. Paul L. Cox: They were quite amazed as they were looking at this. Of course the power started spreading a little bit too to them. I realized that to use the term computer language the Lord was like downloading to disk or this power for 2 or 3 days and then it’s like when you open a file ad you open it and just released this power that had been downloading.
Sid: And as we were saying on yesterday’s broadcast “It’s nice to have power but the only thing that you can measure results by is fruit. What’s going on with these teenagers that get hit with this power?
Dr. Paul L. Cox: Well we had seen the most amazing things happen. Often God gives them objects or swords. We were in Germany, Munich praying for another 14 year old boy who is adopted. And the parents basically brought him to me to fix him. And so I asked if they could step outside and his brother was 19 and stayed in to translate. And he told me about a dream that he had had about a demon chasing him. I told him it was probably something in the generational line. And I had him put his hand out and I told him the Lord was going to give him something in his hands. I did not tell him what I thought it was. And then he looked down and I said to him “What’s in your hand?” And he said “I see a sword.” And then he described the sword in an amazing detail from the blade to the handle. Then I asked him “What does the Lord want you to do?” And he says I need to go and kill that demon. And immediately he closed his eyes and started walking and this went on for probably 15 minutes. When he came back to us and he told me the Lord had translated him to a desert place, he saw the demon, he had an encounter with a demon. He then was moved to a fortress and he came to a round table, this was all in a vision that he saw. And at the round table there were warriors sitting and God was sitting there. As he walked up to God and God told him he had done a good job and told him to sit down at the table and join the other young warriors. I need to tell you that when he came back he was transformed into a different person because he had had an encounter with the living God. God was probably more real to him than he ever had been before.
Sid: But you do realize that in the average charismatic church where that experience to occur even with the fruit they’d probably try to crucify that young man.
Dr. Paul L. Cox: Well we have seen this but I really believe as I said yesterday that this is going to be the normative now for youth.
Sid: Religious spirits are going to go crazy over this.
Dr. Paul L. Cox: Well that’s nothing new is it?
Sid: (Laughing) Tell me a bit about discernment, do you see in the spirit realm, do you see angels? Do you see demons, do you feel them?
Dr. Paul L. Cox: The gift of discernment I believe works through the 5 physical senses. This is based upon the word discern in the Bible, also the English definition talks about discernment is tied to 5 physical senses. My gift is mainly in the gift of healing. I feel with my body what’s going on in the spiritual realm. There are people that I work with that see clearly, I have heard a few times, I have smelled a couple of times, I’ve tasted a couple time.
Sid: Now I know ministers when it comes to the gift of healing they feel a pain in a specific part of their body and someone is always healed. The pain goes away from their body after they’ve said this condition.
Dr. Paul L. Cox: Yes, we’ve also seen that in discernment. For example, the enemy maybe attacking someone we’re praying for a particular part of the body, and we’ll feel that pressure on our body in that same location. So we know how to pray for people, and then they get relieved of whatever pain.
Sid: Okay, you say you feel things in the spirit realm. You talked about the knuckle taping on your head. Give me some more examples of the types of things that you feel, can you… like for instance do you know the difference between a feeling that’s angel and a feeling that’s a demon?
Dr. Paul L. Cox: Yes, the Lord trained me in the early days by surrounding me with people who could see so I say “I am feeling this, what are you seeing?” The Lord first trained me in discerning the demonic and I started feeling territorial spirits and I started feeling angels, and I started feeling angels with messages and I started feeling cherubim and I started feeling witchcraft. I started feeling…
Sid: What does witchcraft feel like?
Dr. Paul L. Cox: Witchcraft to be feels like dirty anointing.
Sid: You know I have felt this and I’ve almost said “It’s almost like an unclean spirit.”
Dr. Paul L. Cox: Yes.
Sid: I mean it’s hard to put into words what you’re feeling but that’s the best way that I can feel it when I’m in someone’s presence that has an unclean spirit I feel that.
Dr. Paul L. Cox: Yes, so you may have the gift of discernment.
Sid: You know I believe that I do but because as I’ve been listening to your tapes and reading notes about you you’re saying things that I haven’t understood before but that’s what’s going on with me.
Dr. Paul L. Cox: Yes.
Sid: Would you give us some scriptures to back up the exercising of discernment in the feeling of the sense area?
Dr. Paul L. Cox: Yes in 1st Corinthian chapter 12 where Paul lists the spiritual gifts he talks about the discerning of spirits, sometimes it’s called the distinguishing of spirits. And a key passage for me is in Hebrews chapter 5 verse 14. And the context is very interesting, the writer says in verse 12 “For by this time you ought to be teachers. You need someone to teach you again the first principals of the oracles of God. And you’ve come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone that partakes fully of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness for he is a babe.” And I’ve talked through the Book of Hebrews as a pastor and I talked also in 1st Corinthians about milk and solid food. But what I did not understand when I started studying on discernment is that the writers very clear how you know if you’re on solid food. You know on most churches that I pastored and my friends’ pastored people would say “Well I’m not being fed here so I’m going to a different church.” And what they’re trying to animate here is “You’re giving me milk and not solid food.” But the writer goes on in verse 14 and says “But solid food belongs to those who are…” I’m reading from New King James. “Who are of full age that is mature, that is by those that by reason of use have their senses” (and this literally is the 5 physical senses), “exercised to discern both good and evil.” So here we have scripture saying very clearly that if you come to maturity in your walk you can discern good and evil through the use of your 5 physical senses.
Sid: And most people don’t even have a clue about what you’re talking. We’ve been talking about this. Give some other things about using the senses in scripture. Like the sense of taste or see or hear.
Dr. Paul L. Cox: Well you know in the Old Testament and the New Testament in Jeremiah and Ezekiel and John talked about receiving a scroll and that they ate the scroll and it was sour.
Sid: You know there’s some people that are mocking our discussion right now. I wonder what they would have done if they heard Ezekiel talking about eating the scroll?
Dr. Paul L. Cox: Oh, they would have thought he was crazy because the truth is that we believe what’s in the Bible was for the Bible time and not for today. I’m coming to believe that everything in the Word of God is exactly what it says it is. It happened and it is real and not only is it real but it’s for today. And you know that’s the problem we Baptists have is that we believe the word of God.
Sid: That’s good!
Dr. Paul L. Cox: And so I take the Bible at face value and many things that we thought were metaphors are in reality quite true.
Sid: Whoops we’re out of time.
SID: So God tells James, who is dying from lymphoma, cancer, that he’s going to have a surprise. He tells him the month. A pastor shows up. His name, his last name just happens to be Pastor Surprise, and Pastor Surprise prays for him, and fire goes all over his body. And then Jesus starts teaching him about healing. Tell me what Jesus taught you.
JAMES: Sid, It was so amazing. I never heard anything like this before. And obviously, I love the Bible and church history, and everything. But what he said to me was, the man of fire himself, Jesus, like Revelation, Chapter 1 says, “With every wound I received, I obtained a special level of healing for my people.” Now while I explain this, I believe that faith is going to light up in the people’s hearts right now, as I just explain this. And as I speak this out, a special level of healing will come your way right now. And he took me to his wounds, and just very quickly, he took me to his back and the 39 stripes. And within each of those places where the back of Yeshua Jesus was laid open, I saw names of sicknesses and diseases. I saw leukemia. I saw paralysis. I saw just different names, scoliosis. I saw names written in every one of the stripes of Jesus. He takes me to the crown of thrones and he says, “When the crown of thorns was pierced upon my head,” he said, “I obtained healing for every mental disease known to mankind.” He took me to his feet where they were pierced through and he said, “I obtained healing for paralysis.” He took me to his hands and said something very distinct, and he said, “Did you know that most diseases are transferred by touch.” And he said, “And I obtained healing when I was nailed, pierced through in my hands. I obtained a special level of healing for every contagious disease.” And right now, I believe the Holy Spirit wants to touch some of you right now. Maybe you’ve gotten just some kind of sickness. Maybe you’re like me with non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma. You have authority to give away what Jesus has given to you. And right now I just speak to leukemia, I speak to blood disorders right now. In fact, I speak to someone who’s on kidney dialysis and God has another way, and He is going to bring purification to your blood and to your kidneys. And God, Jesus even was pierced through. And I want to say to you, he has healing for every heart. And someone with like a hole in their heart and someone with a heart murmur, the Lord Himself is coming by to visit your house and healing is coming to your house today.
SID: One of the things that you said to me that is so important. It’s one thing to understand this revelation, which Jesus taught, like the 39 stripes. Explain that again to me.
JAMES: Yeah well, you know, Jesus, his whole back was laid open and it says, “By his stripes we are healed.” So he took me, turned to the side and he revealed his back to me, and I saw that it had been laid open. And within every one of these wounds, there was a name that was written of a disease or a sickness. Because for every wound Jesus received, he obtained a special level of healing for his people.
SID: Now you told me that you need that revelation, which we understand. And I said, now how do you get that revelation to become fact, and of course, there’s faith involved. But you talked to me about a principle God has taught you called decree. Explain what that is.
JAMES: You know, in the Book of Job, it says, “You shall decree a thing and it will be established. And out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.” And the Book of James says, that, “Our soul is saved by the ingrafting of the Word of God.” So we’ve got to store up the Word of God, the Bible, store up the Word of God in our hearts, and then we have got to proclaim the salvation of God. So we proclaim: “My house shall be saved. My whole house shall be saved.” We proclaim: “By his stripes I am healed.” I didn’t just have an experience. I didn’t only have an encounter. I then had to learn to work the miracle. It’s called, the workings of miracles. So God does His part and then we cooperate and we do our part. And I had to decree over my body, I had to speak over my organs, and I had to speak life. I had to learn to prophecy life, declare life over the very organs of my own physical body.
SID: I tell you what, we can talk on this forever. But I want to find out about that nine weeks of angelic visitations that came to your home. Tell me a little about it.
JAMES: Well it happened on the Day of Atonement. I had gone to sleep. My wife was asleep. I taught at a training center in the Kansas City area. And it was the Day of Atonement, the most holy day in the Jewish calendar, and we’re asleep. And a lightning bolt crashes in the dark, and I wake up at 11:59 at night, and the light from the lightning bolt comes into the bedroom, and now a man, an angel is standing at the end of my bed. I’m like awakened. My wife is still asleep. I’m awake. He looks at me for one straight minute. The clock turns to 12:00, and he says to me, would you like to know what he said?
SID: I’m on the edge of my seat. How about you? I would.
JAMES: And he speaks to me, this angel did, and he says, “Watch your wife. I’m about to speak to her.” And this opened the door to nine straight weeks of angelic visitations. It would go from midnight to 5 a.m. It amazing, supernatural encounters of a heavenly God.
SID: I tell you what. When we come back, I want to find out one of these amazing experiences from James. Be right back.
Sid: My guest Kynan Bridges who has been a guest previously on Messianic Vision probably has a handle on equipping believers on healing better than anyone I know. And Kynan there were several times throughout your life that key things happened to you to catapult you to where you are today; which a man anointed to equip others to move in the miraculous. A little over 10 years ago you had a breakthrough for you to operate in miracles. Tell me about that.
Kynan: Well yeah I was a young believer kind of coming up in searching. You know a lot of times you don’t have mentors in the supernatural. A lot of the mentors that you’re seeing now they’re pretty new but the scale that you’re seeing now is very fresh. So at that time that there won’t in at least in my circle of influence where people would really coach me. And Holy Spirit began to really dig into my heart and I just became thirsty for more. I wanted to know “Lord how do you experience the miraculous like the Bible depicts it?” I know what people are saying but I want what the Bible say is available. And I literally heard an audible voice of God and God said “Your hands are for the healing of the nations.” He said “I want you to take My healing power to the nations.” And at this time I didn’t even have a passport. (Laughing)
Sid: Just out curiosity was it common for you to hear the audible voice of God, had this happened much before?
Kynan: It’s happened on several occasions but usually you’ll get impressions or things like that, but this was a distinct moment. It was a supernatural thing, it was almost like the whole room becomes silent everything else becomes mute and you hear His voice; it’s almost as if time stands still it was one of those experiences.
Sid: Okay, then you go to a teaching on healing in which the teacher was teaching from John G. Lakes materials, and something highly unusual happened to you. What happened?
Kynan: So I’m in this teaching with a minister from John G. Lake Ministries. For those who know about John G. Lake he’s about one of the foremost healing evangelists in the last 120 years.
Sid: Remember the story about him where he had some live disease germs that should have killed him. He wanted to prove his point to a doctor and he put some of those live germs on his hand and he put his hand under a microscope and the doctor he was proving his point to looks at the germs under the microscope and their all dead.
Kynan: Yes, John G. Lake was notorious for doing that kind of radical thing. He did a lot of ministry in South Africa and he would be in the center of plagues and not get sick at all. And he believed according to Roman’s chapter 8 verse 2 that “The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made us free from the law of sin and death.” Therefore sickness can’t operate in our mortal bodies, he believe that with all of his heart. And so I’m in this meeting and their teaching on healing and stuff, they’re trying to demonstrate healing. And my wife and I were just there we were much younger in ministry at the time and the moderator of… the minister who was leading he stops in the middle of the conference just stops, stops and he points at me and says “You.” “I’m thinking, what did I do wrong this time?” (Laughing) And he says “You’re going to take God’s power to the nations.” He says “You feet are going to the nations.” And he kneels before me and he prays over my feet in front of everybody. There’s 100’s of people in the room and they’re just staring at me trying to figure out who I am. And he goes on and I’m thinking, “Okay, that’s past.” And he does it again, and this time he says “I can’t leave you alone.” You’re going to the nations, your hands your feet.” And I just kind of just resonated with me. And so later in the meeting they started praying for the sick and started praying for people. I was walking around the sanctuary and people would just grab me, they would just pull on my shirt, they would pull on my sleeve, grab my arm and they would call out different diseases “Fibromyalgia, cancer, diabetes, Crohn’s disease and they would say “Please pray for us.” And it was very very different for me, very weird at the time that’s the word I need to use to describe it. And I began to pray for people and people began to get healed supernaturally. Now I saw healing before but this was different, this was a different… it was almost like it was an impartation of some sort.
Sid: There were a couple more defining moments in your walk with the Lord in understanding the miraculous. I think that it’s great that God has anointed you for miracles and for healings. But what is much better is He’s also anointed you to transfer it. Anything you have others can do better, tell me about the time you heard the voice of God and He said “Go to your prayer closet and I will speak with you.”
Kynan: Yes, so it was one evening preparing and meditating. And what I try to do is I walk around and Sid I really challenge myself. Because I’m not satisfied with a healing or a breakthrough, I want more, I’m always thirty for more. And the cry of my heart was “God I know that there’s more, I’ve seen miracles, I’ve seen tremendous displays and I know that there’s more.” And the Lord spoke to me and said “Go to your prayer closet and there I’m going to commune with you, I’m going to speak to you there.” And I said “Okay.” And I went to my prayer closet and before I knew it I was almost in a fetal position and I begin to pray and just pray in the Spirit. And I don’t know if I was in my body or I was outside of my body I really can’t tell the difference at this time. But I begin to travel through the stratosphere literally it’s like the speed of light. And all of a sudden I come to this halt. And when I come to this halt I know I’m way above the atmosphere, I’m in another dimension somewhere. I look across and I see what I know by the Spirit is a heavenly Jerusalem. The clouds are golden underneath it; it’s a beautiful city it’s golden and the pearls you saw these colors and I looked at it and I longed for so much more. And I said “God I want to see more of it but it’s like my eyes are almost cloudy I couldn’t see it. The more I tried to focus in the more I couldn’t. The Lord spoke to me and I said “Why can’t I see it, why can’t I see more?” And He said “It’s the condition of your heart.”
Sid: That was the last thing that you expected I bet?
Kynan: (Laughing) No, it was the very last thing that I expected. But I knew Sid that God wasn’t just talking to me, I had this deep impression in my spirit that that was a message for the Body of Messiah, that was a message that He wanted all of us to know. And when I awoke from this experience I was laying in the fetal position crying and praying in tongues. Because the Bible says “Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God.” I believe that scripture if not just referring to the hereafter but I believe that it’s referring to the here and now because the Bible says “After this manner we pray “Thy Kingdom come Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” And so God wants to manifest His power and His glory in and through us here and now. Yes in the life to come but also in the here and now. And our ability to experience that is based upon the condition of our heart. How we see Him, how we perceive Him. That’s why there’s a great need in the Body of Christ for repentance. Now I know that…
Sid: Now isn’t it interesting that the message of the day is when you repented and received Jesus you are finished with repentance for the rest of your life. The exact opposite of what Jesus told you.
Kynan: It is the opposite but you know what this repentance is not just about sack cloth ashes and mourning. This repentance in its truest form that we see in Acts chapter 2 when Peter preached he gospel. He told the people, they said “They were pricked in their heart, what must we do to be saved?” And Peter said “Repent.” Now that is the Greek word “metanoeo.” Now metanoeo is not just a behavioral modification, it doesn’t mean to perform religiously, but metanoeo means a change in mind. A change in mind which will produce a change in action. When we understand true repentance not just this religious stuff but when we understand true Biblical repentance to turn from our understanding, for our ways and turn to Him. I believe Sid that we will see a greater display of the miraculous. I believe we’ll see the power of God in a way that we’ve never seen before.