Sid: Well my guest is red hot for the Messiah his name Pat Schatzline. I find this pretty interesting I was speaking before we went on the air and his dad comes from a Jewish background. See I had a cousin whose last name was Schatz, I don’t know what it was shortened from, so that’s why I suspected that your dad was Jewish. But at age 5 your dad comes to the Lord, what were the circumstances?
Pat: My dad worked for the Teamsters in Detroit, Michigan and was running drugs and a number of other things. My mom went to a Southern Gospel Sing when I was just 2 weeks before that and she had been raised in the south, married my father. Dad worked for GM and he worked for the Teamsters and well, for Ford and the Teamsters, excuse me. And my mom gets invited to church, now my dad was a thug, he was a drug runner the whole family. I can still have memories of waking up with a drug room and all of the other stuff. And my mom goes to church, has a radical encounter with God at this Southern Gospel Sing and comes home. She’s in the middle of a poker game and she turns on Southern Gospel, the guys that were playing poker with my dad getting drunk (Laughing) get under conviction and leave. My dad was so angry, two weeks later the neighbor that had invited my mom to church kept inviting my dad. My dad literally threatened the man with his life. My dad had long hair down to his waist and was crazy but my dad drove his car through our house one night through a drunken stupor, drove right through the garage, the car was in the kitchen. And about 3 days later he realized that he was going to die like so many of his friends had in that type of culture. He got on his knees in the bathroom, flushed dope down the commode and gave his heart to Christ on His own.
Sid: Now as a young man you had quite a background, you… did you literally see angels bring your family cash when they needed it, food when they needed it?
Pat: Absolutely. You know my dad gets saved, goes off to Bible College 3 months later gets radically touched by the Spirit of God. We moved to the south and he starts pasturing this little church, churches that couldn’t afford our family. And I can remember one night that my parents had prayed “God we need $700 tonight to pay for the church building.” We lived in an old parsonage, it was actually an old church. They left went to a meeting and my sister and I were home and we lived on a freeway. And a man knocked on the door, almost what you’d think Jesus would look like. I was about 10 years old and he hands me an envelope. And he says “Is the master home?” And I said “Do you mean my dad?” I go “No, he’s not.” He said “Give him this, when he shut the door I opened the envelope, it was open and there was 7 $100 bills in the envelope. I yanked the door open and Sid you could see anywhere for 2 miles where we lived. We lived on a freeway and no one was to be found. My parents came home, I handed them the envelope and they fell on their knees and began to weep. On other occasions we would be sitting at the dining room table, no food to eat, place settings there and my father would pray “God, we need groceries.” Someone would immediately knock on the door and back a car up and give us groceries and my father would go to thank them and they’d be gone. Crazy experiences like that happened.
Sid: Okay, you know the thing that I often wonder seeing what you saw being raised in such a godly home. At 16 you got in trouble with the law, you were drinking how could you do that?
Pat: You know Sid I think that it was because my parents got so radically saved out of the drug culture that we moved into a mentality for many years of maybe legalism, religion. My dad pastured those little churches and it wasn’t even my parents, it was those little churches and I would say “Are good for one thing, the making and the breaking of a man of God.” And I saw so much in the church that it made me begin to doubt “Okay God.” Now let me say this “I always knew God was there.” There was a time when I was in that car drinking with friends driving down the road and another car came at us in a head on collision and even in a drunken stupor with my friends I screamed “Jesus.” And our car went right through their car and kept going, I can only describe it as a supernatural experience. And it was 2 weeks later in my bedroom floor that I said “God if you’re real I need to know it.” And God walked into my bedroom.
Sid: What do you mean “God walked into your bedroom,” tell me what happened.
Pat: (Laughing) you know I speak a lot overseas and I hear great stories of people having dreams and great stories like that and for me I said Lord… I’m laying in bed and I could hear my mom upstairs praying in her bedroom for me in the Spirit and she was crying out to God. I said “Okay God if Your real prove it.” I laid there for awhile nothing happened. I said “Well, there you go and I got on the floor because I’d seen my dad my whole dad when I’d get up in the middle of the night laying on the floor praying. And he’d get up in the middle of the night and pray all night. And I got on the floor and I said “Okay God if my dad can do it then let me try it like that.” I’m laying on the floor and I fell asleep and somewhere in the night Jesus Himself walked into my bedroom and I looked up and the glory of the Lord filled the room. I had never had an encounter like that obviously, and he said “Pat give me everything, give me your heart son, I’ll take it.” And then He said this to me and Sid it seemed so odd, but He said to me “I’m so sorry,” I start crying when I talk about it.” In fact I feel like there’s somebody watching or listening right now by the radio that needs to hear this. The Lord spoke to me and He said “Son, I’m so sorry that my bride has hurt you over the years.” Because I saw my mom go through things and have a breakdown. A lot of that stuff was caused because they were so raw out of the drug culture and then within 3 years they were pasturing churches. But the Lord spoke to me and said “Son, I’m so sorry that My bride has hurt you, I will protect you, I will anoint you and I will use you.” And instantly I gave my heart to Him and was radically filled with the Spirit at that moment by myself. Ran upstairs woke my parents up and said “I just had an encounter with God.”
Sid: You know I have to believe that there are so many people listening to us that have been turned off by hypocrisy of humans that are believers in the church. Never ever judge God who loves you, who died for you, who appointed you, who has a marvelous destiny for you by someone that has a misunderstanding of God. And that’s the problem, we judge God by people. We have to judge God by God (Chuckling)
Pat: I’ve heard that over and over people go through dark times “God must be made at me. And the Lord spoke to me one day when I was running. He said “Son, tell him I’m not mad at him, tell him I’m mad about him.” And He said “Rewrite my resume to a generation because religion has a great way of high jacking the character of the Holy
Spirit.” And religion walks around with a noose in it’s had ready to choke you. But relationship with Jesus walks around with a fresh glass of water ready to feed you.”
Sid: Okay, tell me about your latest book “I Am Remnant.” I love that title it kind of grabs you. What is this about, where did it come from?”
Pat: Well, you know I was out I always say “When I’m jogging God speaks to me” and He does, it’s the weirdest thing and if I need to hear a word of the Lord I go for a run. And I’m out talking one morning and getting ready to do a conference in Dallas where my son is a youth pastor at. And all of a sudden the Lord just hit me, He said “Son, He said “I want to raise up my remnant.” And I’m worshiping I’m praising God as I’m running and I said “Lord, I’ve heard that word my whole life and in fact in high school and college I laid carpet and the remnant is the left over pieces of carpet that you throw away. And I said “I know, and He said “Go research it.” So I ran back to my hotel room pulled up Romans 11:5 “So too, the present time there has been a remnant chosen by grace.” And the word remnant means rag, what’s left over. From cover to cover Old Testament and New Testament it is all about the remnant. The remnant is not about the large crowds, it’s those that would stand for truth through the power of Holy Spirit and through the darkest of times. And so I wrote a message called “Remnant Rising” preached it the next day in Houston and 40 churches, people started running to the altar. Sometime later God began to birth in me “Now you’re going to turn it into a book.” And that began to come alive in me so that now, I do believe that we’re racing against the rapture. I believe that we’re living in very dark times. I believe that God is about ready to raise up a remnant in America, Israel has always been the remnant. But God is raising up a remnant that will stand firm. You know Amos 9:11 speaks of the Tabernacle of David being restored and it says in it that “The remnant will come forth.” All through Zephaniah 3, all through God’s word it’s about the remnant those that will say “Enough is enough I’m not bowing to culture, God’s word doesn’t change with culture I’m going to stand for Jesus Christ in the darkest times.”
Sid: Now you have something called the poster that is called the “Manifesto of the remnant” what is that?
Pat: You know after God gave me the message I began to write it for my publisher and boy the heavens kind of closed. I mean I just wasn’t getting anything and I was say the teacher doesn’t talk when he giving a test. I had passed the deadline and you know what that’s like through your books that you’ve written. So I looked at my wife and I said “I’ve got to go hear from God.” And so I loaded up in the car and drove to the track where I run at. While I’m out there I said “God are you with me?” I literally said that and He spoke to me and said “Get your phone out I’m going to share something with you.” And the Lord downloaded to me in 45 minutes, it’s so funny because people are running past me on the track and it’s late in the afternoon. I’m weeping uncontrollably and typing on the little yellow pad on your iPhone and God gives me 34 prophetic words and He said “Son,” I call it the manifesto of the remnant. And He said “Now son take this and build your book around it.”
Sid: I’ll tell you what we’re out of time right now but “You’ve been listening to us are you ready for greater intimacy with God? Are you ready to really walk with God like Enoch did? Are you ready to demonstrate His Kingdom?” Guess what He’s already called you, guess what He’s waiting for you. This message from heaven will cause you to experience the awesome love of God that will revolutionize your life….
Sid: My guest this week Lindell Cooley the Worship Leader for one of the greatest Revivals for the 20th century Pensacola, Florida, Brownsville Church. And Lindell you’re a Worship Leader you will always live for worship but now you’re passion is to cause people to learn how to really worship God and get into the presence of God and intimacy with God. But how did you make the jump from Worship Leader to Pastor?
Lindell: Well it actually came Sid as a result of study; I had read many worship books about worship. People were handing me books about worship through the rival. I’d never really studied the scripture a lot on worship. So I basically went back to the drawing board of the scripture of the 66 books of the Bible and I pulled out the words worship and I found the most interesting thing. I found that in the Old Testament there is one word that is used 64 times in it as the word worship. When Abraham worshiped the Lord at the altar it’s this one word, chakal 54 times. And then I looked at the New Testament and there was another word called proscenay which was used 34 times. Well the word worship was only used 108 times according to the English translation. So if you take 54 and 34 you have 88 so that only leaves about 20 uses for the other words. And I was shocked when I read the meaning of those words. Proscenay means to fall down, to prostate ones-self in homage to God. To do reverence to, to adore. Chakal means to homage to royalty to God, bow yourself down, crouch, fall down flat, humbly beseech.
Sid: You know what I don’t hear anything about music and singing in the definition of those two words that were used the most.
Lindell: No, praise is where the music is at but when you study worship it’s all about humbling yourself. And we were telling the story about I was at the airport and I was walking by a shoeshine booth and I noticed that there was a Muslim man and he was in the middle of working his business and he excused himself, he had other customers lined up and he stopped and he said “Give me just a few minutes” and he spreads out his prayer mat right there and bows and humbles himself to worship and prayer to Allah at his prayer time. And I was amazed to see that happen in a businessman’s situation.
Sid: Well Christians won’t even pray in tongues when someone is around them in an airport let alone get on a mat. And by the way this whole definition about the word worship that you’re using prostrating yourself. There’s something Islam got it from Judaism about when you do that you’re heart… explain the position again.
Lindell: When you bow down as the Muslims do you bow and your heart is elevated above your head. So when they borrowed that from the way that we worship Jehovah then literally… but as I see Christians these days they don’t understand that it’s all about standing stoic in a meeting. It’s a big deal if they lift their hands, never do they bow but see they don’t bow because they don’t understand how our God has been treated by His people through the years. He’s been used, he’s been neglected and people don’t understand that God is a person. And as a person He can be cultivated, He has feelings, He has thoughts. If you can cultivate a friendship with anyone you can cultivate one with God. Well imagine if you were God and all you ever did was good to your people and they rejected you. I think about that when I worship the Lord and that’s what drives me to worship the Lord because He’s done nothing but good to me nothing. And He’s so worthy and I wish I could spend the rest of my life just returning back to Him just a piece of all of the goodness He’s given to me. And it drives me to worship Him. And I wish it would drive every person that believes in God Jehovah to worship the Lord.
Sid: If someone took your teaching to heart and started doing what you teach them to do you what you do, as a matter of fact what is your worship like in the morning tell me about it?
Lindell: When I’m in my car I’m singing to the Lord, I’m talking to the Lord on the way to business meetings and appointments. I sing to Him I make up songs to Him, we keep worship through the years, we try to keep worship music in our home. Because the atmosphere is moved by the worship it absolutely fills the atmosphere with the presence of God. Because He promises Sid when we worship the Lord He will inhabit the praises of His people. He’s going to come and house Himself with you when you worship Him. And when He comes all of His goodness comes with Him. (Laughing)
Sid: So for the person that’s listening right now when I play one of your songs called “Let it Rain” what is that about?
Lindell: That’s about the reign of the Lord falling on the earth on dry ground He promised that He would send rain and relieve the draught. The hunger that we all feel in the world for the presence of God it’s our cry to God to say “Lord send Your rain and fill this place. Lord move by Your power,” it’s a cry out to God to come.
Sid: Is that’s your heart because if you’re in a dry place if you feel you need more, if you feel stuck then listen right now to:
“Let it Rain.” Worship excerpt
Sid: I wish I could play that whole song for you, I wish I could play the 2 CD’s done in the midst of revival. There’s such a fire, there’s such a presence of God on this music Lindell Cooley and then your 6 CD’s set on worship. The Lord actually had you study everything you could about the life of David.
Lindell: Yes Sir, yes Sir about 3 years before I actually left Pensacola the Lord put me on a mission to study. And when I finished He gave me an examination, He said “What did you learn?” And I put everything down that I learned about David, great great greatest king ever. But I did not put musician on there and the Lord said to me “You left something out.” And I said “Okay, okay musician” and when I said that I revealed my heart, I didn’t think that as a musician I had the ability to lead people. And the Lord spoke to me and He said “I’m calling you to build me a House where they know how to pray and they know how to worship me and make a place for My presence and I’m going to send you to do that.” And that’s how I became a Pastor.
Sid: Well when I was in Israel a number of months ago I bumped into a man that I’ve heard a great deal about and had a chance to meet him in person; his name is Chuck Pierce. I’m speaking to him at his offices in Denton, Texas but as I said Chuck I’d much rather be talking to you in Jerusalem, Israel any day.
Chuck: Well, it’s such a great time just being with you there Sid and I’d like to back there with you also especially we were there at the head of the year at Rosh Hashanah. So it was such a blessing being there with you. But even perhaps even this way we’ll be able to communicate some things that will help those who are listening to us today.
Sid: You know my producer gave me notes about your background and I find this fascinating you can’t judge a book by its cover. You had a pretty rough background your father was an abusive alcoholic. And although praise God I was not in such a situation I have family members that have and that’s a pretty rough to grow into. He was involved in prostitution and gambling and pretty much destroyed the family. But somehow you managed to get saved at 11 and your mother was a godly woman but she didn’t know what to do about all of the turmoil. And then your father died and the thing that happens so often Chuck is that whatever we judge our parents for and I don’t know whether you judged your father or not. But whatever we judge our parents we many times end up doing it.
Chuck: Well, that’s absolutely right. The thing about my Dad my earthly father was a gifted wonderful man that the enemy someway ganged opening to and all the potential he had Sid just got aborted; he never brought it into fullness. Really when I think of my Dad and my family I do think of Israel there with all of God’s covenant potential all of God’s covenant blessing, all of God’s covenant promise and yet you would find that they would stray. And what happened to me my Dad died prematurely when I was 16 and it was a very tragic death and I seem to…I had had two incredible experiences with the Lord but I seem to find myself stray away after that. And when I was 18 I had this godly grand-mother, you know you look at Timothy and he had a godly mother and he had a godly grandmother. And this godly grandmother of mine came to me and said “Son you’re going in the wrong direction and you’re following the direction that your Dad followed and God has another plan for you.” Well you know when you’re 18 and you know more than Jesus you don’t tend to listen very carefully. And so I told my grandmother and this is interesting this is how God works with us sometimes I said “You know I’m really not interesting in hearing that Mama” and that’s what I called her. And yet I respected and loved that woman more anything in the world. And I’ll never forget it I had left college that day to go over and eat with her and she set my plate of food down in front of me and she turned around and she surprised me. She surprised me because with the back of her hand she knocked me out of the chair.
Sid: That’s a surprise.
Chuck: Yeah and she said “Then I won’t say anything else I’ll let God deal with you because your god.” And you know I didn’t really know what that meant but it gave me that feeling of a mixture of fear and I wonder what will happen. And three months later I found myself in a hospital room, I had collapsed physically tremendous tremendous problems physically. And my grandmother of course was a nurse in that hospital and said “I told you the Lord was going to do this with you.” And yet in God’s sovereign grace he put me in the hospital room with a Pentecostal pastor and he introduced me to a person I’d never had been introduced to before named the Holy Spirit. And so God in his sovereignty just sort of grabbed my life and took it. But He spoke something to me in a hospital room he said “I can restore all you’ve lost.” And this is what was so incredible for me the Spirit of God visited me for 3 days.
Sid: What do mean by that “He visited you?”
Chuck: Well, it was as if He came into the room with me. I began to weep it’s as if He was in the room I could actually feel his presence.
Sid: But then out of curiosity you said that when you were younger you had a few experiences with God was anything to this degree previously?
Chuck: I had had an experience of salvation because I had been in Baptist Church, they would give an altar call every Sunday. But there was an older lady in our church she was over 80 and there would come times where this lady would stand up and worship and this is one of the most impacting things of my life. She would stand up in worship, she would lift her hands up and the Pastor would stop his message when she would do that on occasion and say “Miss Grimes what is happening with you?” And she’d say “The Lord is speaking to me, the Lord is speaking to me.” And it would amaze me and then when she would share what God is saying to her the whole atmosphere of the church would change. And nobody ever mentioned prophesy, nobody I never heard that word. But what she would do actually was prophesy to the congregation and it had such an impact on me that I knew God was real. And so when he would say “If the Lord is speaking to you today to come forward come forward and meet Him today.” I waited for God to speak to me because I knew that if He could speak to Miss Grimes He could speak to me. So when I was 11 years old the Spirit of God came to me and said “This is your day come forward with Me.” So the reality of God’s voice was real to me. And then through living through the trauma you mentioned when I was 16 the Spirit of God spoke to me and it actually saved my life from a disastrous time where my Dad had lost control. So in that when I was introduced to the Holy Spirit it was like I got to know His person in the hospital room. His presence was tangible and when He spoke to me and said “I can restore all of you’ve lost” it was just an incredible dynamic. And I picked up the word of God in that hospital room and I started reading in Genesis. I knew Bible stories but I’d never read the Bible and when I got to those 12 tribes that God had a plan for and I saw His covenant relationship with Abraham some way or another He gave me revelation of not only His covenant relationship with Abraham and the land of Israel but He gave me revelation of His covenant relationship with me as well.
Sid: Now you wept for 3 days.
Chuck: I wept and wept and wept and here was the interesting thing my Dad had acquired the land from the 12 brothers and sisters of his family.
Chuck: He had all of that land he had worked and acquired. And you can imagine and reading the Bible and seeing those 12 tribes. And all of that land God had given them the Bible became so real to me and it was as if God had ordained an understanding came to me because…actually you mentioned something at the beginning. I really never had bitterness toward my Dad I knew, I knew that some way what had been planned for him had been thwarted by an enemy and he had gone the wrong way. And even in all the trauma we had experienced and it was as if when I was 18 I started gaining understanding. And I can honestly say to you listeners God has an inheritance for you and He will secure your inheritance for you if you’ll let Him. And since that day I’m 50 this is my 50th year this year in the earth realm. God has restored my family and restored my life and restored my joy in Him so He can do the same for you.
Sid: Chuck the thing that is so fascinating to me is then shortly thereafter you were in a car the presence of God just overwhelmed you with His love but somehow God gave you information about what was meant for your Dad but you would be able to get those blessings. Explain that.
Chuck: It was really interesting because again after you’d experienced God like that like I did in the hospital there for 3 days that Pastor got out of the hospital I stayed another week and that’s when the Lord visited me. And I’ll say something else too Sid in the midst of that visitation in the hospital it was during the time of the tragedy in Munich during the Olympics and my heart understood…
Sid: So you’re really tied in with Israel in lots of ways Chuck.
Chuck: God opened the word up to me for Israel. He opened up His covenant plan, He showed me my grafted you know later on I understood the word grafted in but it all became real to me. And then the tragedy of Munich when you’re seeing the hate of the enemy destroy the Israel team in the Olympics I understood Satan’s vengeance that He had on God’s seed and on God’s plan in the earth. And so something happened to me and that’s why later on a few years after that I was driving to work in Houston and the presence and the power of God visited my car again. And I had become very devoted to the Lord by now but you know He doesn’t….
Sid: I’ll tell you what Chuck we’re out of time just hold that thought…
SID: You know, as we were discussing, everything is being fulfilled to the day, to the hour of the first coming of Messiah through God’s biblical feast or as Mark explained, his appointments. Then the last feast will be his return to the day and the hour. But is there anywhere in the Bible that gives us a clue that the devil is going to tamper with the calendar so that we’ll miss the signs?
MARK: You bet there is. It’s in the Book of Daniel. And think about this. If you are in business and your competitor, you had an appointment, if he could get a hold of your day timer and change it, he would love to have you miss the appointment.
SID: Of course.
MARK: Well God doesn’t want us to miss the appointments and he always warns before He brings judgment. And guess what? In Daniel, it says, one of the things the Antichrist will do is change the timings and the seasons.
SID: I remember that. Do you remember that? I do.
MARK: That’s referring to the feast days. That’s referring to God’s appointed times when He’s going to intersect human history. So significant.
SID: So speaking of intersecting human history, we have this tetrad, the four blood moons and the last one, which will happen next year, will be the most unusual that it ever has occurred in history. In fact, we won’t even, we don’t even have any more of these tetrads scheduled that occur on feast days for over 400 years after that. Why is it so unusual, Mark?
MARK: Well have you ever heard of a super moon?
SID: I actually heard of it because I interviewed you on radio. Before that, I didn’t know diddly.
MARK: Here’s what a super moon is. Here’s the earth and here’s the moon, and the moon’s orbit around the earth is elliptical. It’s far away and it gets close, and it’s far away. Every month does a complete orbit. When the moon is at its closest point to Earth, it’s called its perigee. All right. Well if the moon is a new moon at perigee at its closest point, you don’t even see it. But if the moon is a full moon at its closest point to Earth, according to NASA it looks 14 percent larger. It’s this big super moon because it’s so close. Well guess what? Next year, on September 28th, we not only have a full moon, we have a super moon that it’s at its closest point to Earth, not just for the month, for the entire year. And it’s a super blood moon that is going to be seen in Jerusalem on the Feast of Tabernacles and in a Shmitah year.
SID: Now what’s a Shmitah year?
MARK: Now the Shmitah year is every seventh year.
MARK: Every seventh year the land had to rest and it couldn’t be killed. The amazing thing is this. Every man, see God commanded all the men to be in Jerusalem three times a year.
MARK: He didn’t command the women because they didn’t have to be told what to do. The women don’t. Okay. But every three times a year, all the men had to be in Jerusalem. But in the Shmitah, in the seventh year, specifically on the Feast of Tabernacles, it says in Deuteronomy, “Every man, woman, child and even the stranger has to be there to hear the King of Israel read from the scriptures.”
SID: Okay. Now this begs the question. Why is God giving us so many, sign after sign, after sign for next year? What, use your sanctified intellect having studied astronomy, having studied the Bible, having studied the biblical feasts. You’re an expert in these three arenas. What is going to happen?
MARK: Well here’s one thing that I think. In the Book of Joel you mentioned where it talks about the sun turning to sackcloth and the moon to blood, it’s in the same context that God says He’s going to judge all the nations who are trying to divide the Land of Israel. And that’s what’s going on right now. America is leading the push to divide the Land of Israel and I think these are the heavenly billboard of warning signs by God to Israel, not to divide their land. It’s also that America should not partake. But here’s the other thing. We see a war in 1948, a biblically prophetic war. We see a biblically prophetic war in ’67. I’m not saying it’s going to happen. But I think there’s a good chance we could see a biblically prophetic war in Israel because there are several that haven’t taken place yet. But guess what else? That seventh year is an economic reset year. That is when all the debts were to be forgiven and the people released. But in Nebuchadnezzar’s day they had set the people free and they changed their mind and put them all back into bondage. And God said because of that, the seventh year is going to be a year of judgment. And the seventh year has been the year of judgment. And do you know in 1994, do you remember the Shumaker-Levy comet when it got tumbled 21 times? Okay. That was a Shmitah year. And guess what weekend it happened on? The 9th of Av, which is the time when the Temple was destroyed twice. And so I thought back in 1994, that that meant with 21 fragments that 7 x 3 is 21, the next three Shmitah years would be times of judgment. And 2001 was a Shmitah year, or the seventh year, and that’s when the Dow fell, it’s biggest drop ever to that time, and it fell on Rosh Hoshanah, the seventh month, it fell 7 percent.
SID: Tell me the next one.
MARK: The next one is 2008, when the big stock market crash happened. Guess what? That was a Shmitah year. It happened on the first day of the seventh month. The Dow fell 777 points.
SID: No. You’re making that up.
MARK: No. It was.
SID: I saw it.
SID: Now listen. How many more signs do you need? This is your moment to make Jesus your Messiah and Lord. Believe that Jesus died, just like Mark explained, and rose from the dead on the Jewish feast, and believe that his blood washed away your sins. You are clean. Make Jesus your Lord and live inside of you now.
Sid: I’m so excited because I’ve got in my hands a teaching series called “What God has Joined Together.” There is a problem in the world involving divorce. There is probably equal problem in the quote “Church” involving divorce. And this wrong and I believe God has some solutions and some answers. I believe there are people listening right now that this teaching will transform, absolutely transform your marriage. There is no such thing as an impossible situation in marriage. God says “All things are possible to those who believe.” I have on the telephone Gary Whetstone, and Gary is the Pastor of Victory Christian Fellowship” New Castle, Delaware. And he’s also the head of the Gary Whetstone Worldwide Ministries which has founded over 207 Bible schools throughout the world. Gary there was a day in which your life should have ended. Did you ever see the movie Mishpochah “One Flew over the Cuckoo…” and they gave lobotomies to those patients. Well in effect, there was a point but short of the mercy of God the man I’m speaking to that has done so much in the kingdom of God would have been a vegetable. Gary you started out so good you’re a star athlete, you making good grades but you had an auto accident, what happened?
Gary: Well Sid when I was in my early teenage years I was 3rd seat in Delaware and 10 as Captain of the football team President of Student Councils, straight “A” student. And then during the winter of my ninth grade going into the 10th grade year I hit a car head on sledding. When I did that it drove my right arm through my back and as a result in my ability in swimming, tennis, everything was just football was out the window. My brother during that time had been the President of the Pagan motorcycle club here in southern Philadelphia region and literally I turned my life over to a life of drugs and crime and everything else to the point Sid that literally I lost my mind completely. And spent almost 2 years in an isolation ward in the state mental hospital in Delaware both going to the bathroom and eating out of the same pan that I get every day that I get with food in it, it was incredible.
Sid: It’s beyond someone’s wildest imagination for someone at such a young age to go from star athlete with good grades to that. Tell me about what the doctors wanted to do to you and what the affect would have been on your life.
Gary: Well Sid really this is quite a shock to the American listening audience because they don’t think things like this has happened in this generation but in fact it has. I was locked in an isolation ward on and off from the age of 16 ½ to 18 ½ and by the end of that time I was in permanently in an isolation ward. And I was what was considered a ward of the state, where I lost literally all constitutional rights. My parents had signed a waiver of the state that if the State of Delaware killed me or permanently maimed me this new procedure that there was no legal recourse that they could take. What the procedure was drilling a hole in the cranium in the top part of the brain and removing that part of the skull, inserting an electronic probe and killing the brain mass that contained all memory. Very similar to what we would call an electronic lobotomy. And literally I could remember the days where I was taken by arm and feet restraints to the head psychiatrist’s office and I was notified of this procedure. And everyone in the mental hospital knew that those that had ever had that procedure all died…
Sid: You know what it sounds like to me it sounds like legal murder to get rid of the mentally defective.
Gary: Well at that time it was. And actually the tragedy of this whole procedure was that it was developed upon the Jews in Auschwitz. And during that time unfortunately a lot of the American Physiotherapy and operations and mental hospitals came out of the concentration camps of the Jews. And that was the founding place of these procedures.
Sid: Two days before you were about ready to be made a vegetable, a man witnessed to you what happen?
Gary: I had long red hair and a long beard down the center of my chest and I was literally living in an isolation ward. On Wednesday I was going to begin the procedure on Friday and they would progressively kill the brain throughout a 4 or 5 day process. I was invited to meet a man in the solarium which I had never been in. It was a locked ward that you could not have other people in. As I sat there they were shooting me up with Malarone and Thorazine such intense antipsychotic drugs, it was enough to knock a horse out. That man looked at me and I’d never met up until that point anyone like him. He said “Gary the power of sin is going to kill you, but if you would repent and receive Jesus as your Lord and Savior you’d be saved.” I never knew what saved meant; I never knew what repent meant, and didn’t know who Jesus was, just thought he was a cuss word. And literally I was on my face on that carpet with tears pouring out. Something had happened with those words that had pierced through the mental torment that broke through the absolute confusion of listening to voices and everything. And upon that place I got up off that place I got up off that carpet and my mind was normal again. And I said to this guy he was a Baptist preacher, and I said “What happened to me?” He said “Oh, you got saved.” I said “Oh, what’s that?” He said “You got born again.” I said “What’s that?” He said “Jesus.” I said “Who’s that.” I did not know what happened to me. All I knew is that the incredible mental torment was over and my thinking processes were reengaged in peace. And literally I said to the guy, “You’ve got to explain to me.” Well he looked at his watch and said “I’m sorry I’ve got to go and I’ll come back later.” There was no later for me Sid I was going to have this procedure in 2 days and later did not exist. So he walked out.
Sid: So what did you do?
Gary: Well, he walked out they called the orderlies back they bound up my hands and feet again because I always lived in restraint whenever I was outside of the isolation area. They led me back into the ward, led me back right into my cell in that padded area and that was it. I beat on those walls on the doors for literally upon hours upon hours to try to get an orderlies attention. Finally the guy comes over and says “What do you want?” And I told the guy this is now later in the day on Wednesday I said “I’m sane.” And you can get a picture here is a guy sitting in isolation ward screaming out he’s sane with his fingers in his ears and beating on the door. I mean it’s kind of comical but in reality it wasn’t.
Sid: I’m glad I wasn’t in your shoes.
Gary: Yeah, and so finally he said “What do you want?” I said “I’ve got to be reexamined by a psychiatrist.” Well, the next day evidently because of a request that a person prior to that type of procedure was granted I did meet with a head psychiatrist that next day on Thursday. And as I sat there they took my hand restraints off and I was kind of surprised they did that because in an area where other people are I always was bound. And I explained to this man that I had no knowledge of what happened really but I prayed this prayer and now I’m sane.” Well the psychiatrist said “We’re you having a sense of sanity because of relationship with God?” And I said “Yeah, that’s what it is” I thought the guy was kind of tuning into what happened to me. And he shook his head and said “Well Gary this is a further manifestation of the incredible mental derangement that is in your life…
Gary: “The paranoiac schizophrenic state in this entire area of mental insanity and unfortunately now you’re living in apparitions of god which is completely unfounded and you’ll have no contact with reality so we are going to continue with this procedure.” Well I tell you Sid what happened to me I lunged across that desk grabbed that psychiatrist, started beating him up. And he hit the panic button and the orderlies came in wrestled me back down to the ground and put me back in my restraints and off I went. Well you know I kind of say it this way “Well how many other people still acted like the devil right after they got saved.” Well any rate that’s exactly what happened to me.
Sid: Listen you were in desperate, desperate situation!
Gary: Yeah, I was down to probably 24 to 30 hours before I was to be reduced to a vegetable. They had said that the only thing that would be left in my life would be number 1 the ability to walk, and number 2 I’d probably lose all ability to retain my body functions, and I’d have to learn how to go to the bathroom again. But outside of that there would be no memory of the past and no memory or ability to build memory in the future. It was like an electronic lobotomy. And it was just the most incredible atmosphere.
Sid: And you’re in a cell and in a straight jacket type thing or…
Gary: Well when I was in the isolation area they would take the restraints off of my hands and feet. But any time that I was out I was always bound with these restraints that they used. And what was interesting I was always led away from the head psychiatrist after having that little beating him up there they had taken the arms restraints and the feet restraints off. And one guard was on one side and the other was on the other side and it was like a corridor that actually went outside with screen meshing and glass and bars and everything. And what happened was just like you can picture in the prison environment they would open doors and I would be kind of like a rat you know just guided into my isolation cell and that was it they’d shut the door. And of course they’d start the procedure the next day. And during that time they shut the door behind me and 2 guards are looking at me I’m telling you Sid something happened that literally blows people mind…
Sid: Gary can you hold that thought.
Sid: Tomorrow’s broadcast we’re going to pick up right here.
SID: Kynan said when he does three things, miracles erupt. One, proclaim the Kingdom of Heaven. Two, create the atmosphere. The atmosphere of the Holy Spirit is welcomed. And number three?
KYNAN: The third and one of the most important keys to seeing healing manifest is a “D” word called “determination.” And what that means is that we must keep pushing into God until we see manifestation. Too many people give up before their miracle manifests and right when they’re about to receive their healing, they quit. The Bible says, “Don’t cast away your confidence. It has great recompense of reward. For you have need of endurance, determination, persistence in order to see the miraculous.”
SID: You know what I believe, Kynan? Those lying symptoms will hang around as long as they think you’ll eventually give up. And once they realize that you’re not going to give up they find someone else that’s willing to give up.
KYNAN: Absolutely. Satan is a bully. And like all bullies, the only thing a bully responds to is brute force. And you have to learn how to really, really stand your ground and tell the enemy, you’re not going to have my health, you’re not going to have my body, you’re not going to have my mind because it belongs to God, and I’m going to fight for it with every fiber of my being. Until you get to that place, the enemy will keep attacking and he will keep disturbing your health. But when you make a decision and say, no more, I will not tolerate it anymore, and keep pressing, you’ll wear down the enemy and he’ll have to flee.
SID: Okay. Many times Jesus cast out demons and people were healed. Other times, he prayed for the sick and people were healed. So there’s a distinction. Kynan, in your experience, what type of illnesses have you seen that the first thing you look for is to cast the demon out even before you pray for someone to be healed?
KYNAN: Well the first and most common one is cancer. I believe, along with many of those that have gone before me that cancer is a manifestation of the demonic spirit of death, also mental illness: schizophrenia, bipolar disorder. You see this throughout the New Testament. Jesus cast out spirits of insanity. Things like arthritis and things that deal with the bone are often times manifestations of spirits of infirmity in people’s body. We have to use discernment to know how to identify these demonic spirits.
SID: Now you talk a lot about sin can literally be a portal for the demonic.
KYNAN: Demonic spirits have a legal right to enter. When people are involved in pornography, adultery, watching demonic movies, the new age, and there are so many involved in the new age that, you know, many people don’t realize it, but these things are allowing the enemy to have a stranglehold on believers without their being aware of it. And so you got to understand that the first thing, if you really want to, let’s say you’re not experiencing healing and you’ve been dealing with prolonged infirmity, the first thing you’ve got to identify is are there some open doors or demonic portals, and through the power of the spirit you need to collapse those portals. And when you do, we’ve seen many people supernaturally healed just by breaking the power of the demonic.
SID: Now what do you exactly mean, “would collapse the portals”?
KYNAN: What I mean is we have to take authority through the name of Jesus and close those doors. It’s just like in the natural, it’s like, imagine a tunnel that an enemy is traveling through. Many times during wars, there would be secret tunnels where spies and enemies would come through and the first thing it would do is take a stick of dynamite, and they would collapse that tunnel, and it would block off the passage to those enemies. And the same way in the spiritual realm, we have to take the dynamite of the Holy Spirit, the dunamis of God, and we have to release the power of God that will break and cut off that demonic entrance.
SID: Do that right now, especially cancer.
KYNAN: Father, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, there’s someone watching me that’s been dealing with Hodgkin’s lymphoma. There’s another person dealing with melanoma of the skin, another one with leukemia. And right now in the name of the Lamb Jesus Christ, Yeshua, we collapse, we break the power of every demonic portal, every demonic entrance that has been opening the door to sickness and infirmity, right now. If you’ll just stretch your hands right now, I believe that the Holy Spirit is even healing you now. We cancel the assignment of the devil in Yeshua’s name. Amen.
SID: Did you catch what Kynan said? The devil is a bully. But the devil comes like a roaring lion, but all he’s doing is roaring, and you give him no place. Why? Because greater is he that’s in you than he that’s in the world. I tell you, there is more power in the resurrected Jesus. I tell you the grave is empty. The tomb is empty. He’s alive. I tell you he’s alive and he can live inside of you. Just ask. Say, Jesus, I make you my Lord. Do it now, right this moment, out loud. Ask him to forgive you of your sins, be your Lord and live inside of you. Now.
Sid: Let me tell you what God is speaking to me; we had a season in which there was such an emphasis on the Holy Spirit it started the whole Charismatic movement. And rightfully so because the Holy Spirit there wasn’t much of an emphasis on Him, and then there was such an emphasis on the Name of Jesus. The power in the Name of Jesus and rightfully so, but we haven’t had that same revelation on God the Father until now. Why haven’t we had that same revelation? Because just before the Messiah returns God says in the Prophet Malachi He would return the hearts of the children to the fathers and the hearts of the fathers to the children. And I was excited when I got a hold of Hank Kunneman’s new book “My Heart Cries Ababa” because we now have that revelation. Hank Kunneman you have such a Biblical revelation and prophetic going from Genesis to the book of Revelation on the love of Father God that I believe that everyone that wants that revelation, I can’t believe a believer that doesn’t, by the time they finish your book their going to get it. How did you happen to even write this book? What was the catalyst Hank?
Hank: I learned this revelation as I was driving in a very bad ice storm you know in Nebraska we have some very bad ice that comes. This one particular day I was driving and it was very very icy and you have to really slow down and you have to drive carefully because the roads are extremely dangerous. In fact there were cars and trucks and semis that were over turned. Cars literally on their side, some on their tops and I was really beginning to be afraid. And I could feel the sweat coming down on my face. I saw that the conditions were worsening and so I called out and I said “Lord I need You help I want You to watch over me; I need You to watch over the situation.” And of course I was saying it in fear and all of a sudden I heard a very strong yet gentle voice saying “Hank, why wouldn’t I take care of you after all I am your Abba.” And when He said those words Abba it’s almost like my spirit being began to reverberate, “Abba, Abba, Abba, Abba.” And I couldn’t shake it it was almost like as I was driving in this ice storm all I could focus on was the word “Abba.” And so I began to go home and research the definition of the word Abba, what did it mean and why did Jesus in the Garden in His moment of incredible pain came a feeling with great drops of blood as was sweating and it was a time when His soul was vexed. Why of all things he would cry out in Mark 14 to His heavenly Father, He would use the word Abba. And so I began to say you know God with my life and the things that I’ve gone through or people that are living today there’s a real sense that people are hurting they’ve been through some things. Some people their souls and been vexed and I said “God I really sense in my heart that this is the final revelation of what You are going to reveal before the Messiah comes that is a reconciliation or a bringing back of the people connecting them to the heart of who God is Abba.” And so that’s why I wrote the book and that’s really how it began to come to me.
Sid: I want to tell our listeners right now that we’re friends, I’m friends with Hank, I recently spoke at his church and Hank opened up to me and told me some personal things that he has never publically shared. And he wasn’t sure that he wanted to share it and you told me that recently you heard the voice of God and what did He tell you?
Hank: The voice of the Lord spoke to me and said “Hank the reason why you were born into the family situation that you were born into,” that we’re going to talk about here, “is because I want you to share a story, a testimony to help other people.” You know I’ve learned something I’ve been in the ministry since 1986, and Sid I’ve learned the importance we have to be honest, we have to be genuine, we have to be able to share our stories that can empower and help somebody else…
Sid: You know as you and I have discussed I am so sick and tired of plastic Christianity if we can’t be real who can?
Hank: Well I don’t think we’re helping anybody, you know we’re supposed to be ministers of reconciliation and sometimes the way that you reconcile is through being honest, being open and being transparent that can help people that can identify what you’ve gone through. And really in my book “Abba” I talked about how there was 3 types of fathers and I began to understand that there’s:
- The biological type of a father where there just basically what we would call the sperm donor but they’re not one who stays around and raises that child.
- There’s the provider and the protector you know they’re the kind of father they put a roof over their head, they protect, they provide but there’s not a lot of love and affirmation.
- Then there’s the third kind of father that maybe had the honor or having that, that is the father that affirms them and looks them in the eyes and tells them “Hey, you know I love you.”
Well I didn’t have those examples growing up. I had the biological example. Let me give you what I’m saying and again Sid, this really the first time that I’ve really opened up on this level like this because I felt like I just needed to hold on to not really let anybody know about it. But the more I realized as I was writing this book that God was after something, He was after the hearts of man and He wanted to heal some people who’d been broken, who’s been wounded. You know people that are saying “Can I love God that way like a Daddy because of their own experience of their own either absence of a father or their own experience with a father. So people are crying out and they’re saying “Is God angry at me? Is He ashamed of me? Is He willing to get involved in my life now?” And so I grew up I had a biological father, I never met him he’s not alive today, but he was a biological father. He married my mother and at the age of 1 he left and left her with 2 kids and went on his way and I didn’t ever come to know him. So for years I felt like I had to hide this thing that I wasn’t…you know my name is Kunneman and I felt like I had to hide this thing that I wasn’t a blood Kunneman. And something that people need to understand…
Sid: So you almost felt as a kid as a kid’s mentality second class.
Hank: Well I’ll tell you why I did, because I’ll tell you I’ll move a head just a little bit my mom remarried and married what some would call my stepdad and even though I never called him a stepdad, I never referred to him as by his first name. He adopted me as one of his own at the age of 2 and he had 4 kids from a previous marriage. My mom had me and my sister from my biological father. So when they came together it would be my adoptive grandparents, or some would say step-grandparents, they didn’t receive me as their own flesh and blood. There were times growing up, it was very hurtful for me because they would say things like “You know you are not one of us, you don’t have the true blood in you.” And they would say things like “You are never going to get our inheritance.” Now they had a lot of money…
Sid: Now what about something like Christmas Hank, what was that like for you?
Hank: Well and that was a little painful for me and here I’m a little kid and of course I’m not bitter I did experience the pain of not feeling like I belonged. And so they would constantly take the 4 blood grandchildren and they would give them the bigger gifts or give them gifts and there was times that I wasn’t their own flesh and blood you know you get a smaller gift, or I would get a card at my birthday or I had to watch my brothers and sisters you know open up bigger presents and get money at times and promised an inheritance that once the grandparents would go on. Well what happens is nobody got any inheritance, my grandparents wound up both needing medical care and extended hospital stay and it ate up all of their inheritance. But growing up as a kid and I mean I’m 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 years of age and I’m wondering “Why am I being treated differently I don’t understand this?” And what do you mean “I’m not part of your own flesh and blood.” So growing up that was very hurtful. I always wanted to feel like I was part of the family and I had to learn through those times that you know I couldn’t get upset I couldn’t get bitter but at the same time there was times I would just go away and I’d just cry in my room because I couldn’t relate and understand well how am I different then my brothers and sisters? Why am I not a real flesh and blood Kunneman?
Sid: And in that whole thing as a little child trying to process raised in a non-Christian home at age 5 you had a visitation!
Hank: Yeah, that is the most amazing thing and this is what I want to encourage people today. Even though you may grow up into a family or a situation that you didn’t ask for, you know I didn’t ask for it. I was a part of a process that I didn’t realize that Abba was working at that time. At the age of 5 my dad was in the military, my stepdad, and he was in the military and he had orders to go to Guam. And I remember that at the age of 5 I heard a voice and it was so tender and it was so sweet that I began to look around. I was on the driveway and leaning on the back of our parents, my parent’s car and I heard this voice. And again I’m talking in simple childlike terms… I heard this voice basically telling me that “I was loved and that if I would do good and do good things and be nice to others that there was a great plan for my life.”
Sid: Oh, we’re out of time….
Sid: I’ve been looking forward to this interview for a while I have on the telephone the Senior Leader from Bethel Church Bill Johnson. Bill, there is something that marks you, and I believe there are 2 things that have done it. The first that has done it and sometimes it marks someone in a bad way, is how many generations is it 5 generations of Full Gospel Preachers and Pastors? (Chuckling)
Bill: Yeah, I’m a 5th generation Pastor and my children are all in ministry as well, so the 6th generation.
Sid: That is… what a wonderful heritage.
Sid: I mean that alone is miraculous to me. I mean I didn’t even know who Jesus was until I was almost 30 in Christian America of all places. But I want to take you back to a night that you had electricity go through your whole body when was that?
Bill: October of 1995.
Sid: And take me… give me a little bit of the history of that.
Bill: Well I had been really encouraged and inspired in the subject of revival in the outpouring of the Spirit. I had gone to Toronto and was touched there. I had come home we were just hungry for something. Fresh in the Lord, I brought in a friend named Dick Joyce that was ministering, he is a great prophet of God. Was ministering at that church and that evening when I was praying for people I told a friend of mine that God was going to touch him and it could be in the middle of the night at three in the morning. It could be at the middle of the day. When I got home it was real late at night got to sleep. I woke up suddenly at 3:00am exactly with that prophesy that had given to a friend of mine. That prophesy immediately in mind. I looked at the clock it was 3:00 exactly and I said, I said out loud “You set me up.” I felt like the Lord had me encourage somebody else with something that was actually my portion. And He just began to visit me in power, I don’t know any other way to describe it except that it was electricity going through my entire body.
Sid: Let me ask you something, you said you went to Toronto when the Revival hit. What you’re about to describe did you have the same thing happen to you at Toronto?
Bill: No, no I didn’t. I didn’t have anything noticeably happen to me in Toronto except I felt the presence of the Lord, I encountered His peace there was a lot of just deep heart stuff that was wonderful. My affections for Him were strong and vibrant and that sort of thing but no, there was no there was no experience.
Sid: Okay, let’s take you back to 3 in the morning, you prophesied something over a friend, it started happening to you, describe.
Bill: Well, it’s almost… I was actually embarrassed, I felt my face turn red and the reason I had no control of my limbs they shot out with electricity like 1000 volts of electricity I couldn’t control my arms. If I clenched my fists I would try to get control then my legs would get more violent.
Sid: Now that’s interesting Bill because I have had this happen to me but for me I’ve had control. What I do I yield to the Spirit of God doing this but I’ve always felt I could stop it if I wanted to but I never wanted to. Are you telling me you tried to stop?
Bill: Yeah, I didn’t know what was happening at first to be honest with you in the first few moments I didn’t know what was happening. I tried to regain control of my body because it’s not normal to have no control, I couldn’t control it. I would fight it not knowing that I was fighting the Lord and I would try to get control and I realized through…
Sid: Excuse me, was your wife there when this was happening?
Bill: She was sleeping and it was a miracle she stayed asleep because…
Sid: I think so (Laughing)
Bill: It really was. Interestingly a couple of days later it spread to her as well but it was just… it was violent in a sense encounter. And the Lord He paraded certain pictures in front of my mind, He reminded me of Mary the mother of Jesus, the mother of the illegitimate child. Reminded me of Jacob wrestling with an angel limp for the rest of his life. He reminded me of these scenes in scripture where an encounter changed everything. And while it’s highly favored from heaven’s perspective not always from earth’s perspective. And I felt embarrassed for what I was experiencing. And I then there’s a picture flash in front of me that saw me trying to teach in front of the church that I pastured realizing there’s not anybody in the room that’s going to believe that this is God. This is so embarrassing so unusual that I didn’t think that there was anybody that would think that it was the Lord. And then the next scene I saw myself standing in front of my favorite restaurant in town and I realized that the city is going to laugh at me as well. (Chuckling) And it was a decision, I had been praying for months, and I had literally been praying this day and night I would wake up in the middle of the night praying this “God I want more of you at any cost, I will pay any prince.” And so when He paraded these scenes in front of me it was basically asking me “Did you mean it when you said ‘At any price?’” Because the way it looked I either will be a laughing stock in front of the church or the city or I won’t be able to get out of bed the rest of my life I won’t be able to function as a result of this Devine touch. And I laid there weeping for probably 20 minutes and after about 20 minutes or so of tears streaming down on my pillow case I said “Yes, I’ll take it, I’ll take it I want more of You, you can do whatever you want with me you can make me look any way you want it doesn’t matter to me as long as I get You in the exchange.”
Sid: Now just out of curiosity you probably can’t answer this question but it’s crossed my mind. If you had said “No, I want my dignity do you think you would have lost what you have today?”
Bill: Yeah, I do I absolutely do. He doesn’t take you to moments of decisions that aren’t necessarily. I’m not saying He wouldn’t have used me, He wouldn’t have done something in and through my life but we often are the ones that set the limits.
Sid: Okay, did He say anything else to you at that moment?
Bill: That was it, He wanted me to lay down my dignity, my fear of man which you know if you’d ask anyone who knew me in that period of time all of my closest friends would have said “The fear of man was not an issue for me.”But the Lord saw beyond what everyone else could see that I could have been prone to making decisions based on what other people thought and I had to come to that place to go where He wanted to take me I had to be able to respond to Him, still maintain love, honor and respect for people but respond to Him without being crippled by the fear of man. And that’s what He was after.
Sid: Now out of curiosity why did He choose you?
Bill: Oh, I have no idea.
Sid: I know you told me but I thought I had to ask you any way it’s called “just His choice” and that’s all involved.
Bill: I am a 5th generation Pastor and is a wonderful thing I had a great upbringing but I’m the guy that took an F in school on oral exam in school because I didn’t want to speak aloud in front of people.
Bill: I’m the guy that read one book in my all until I was 18 years old I read it in 8th grade and I avoided reading, I hated study, I wasn’t good at any of the things that are necessary for what I’m doing. So when the Lord chose me He was doing what He often does He chooses because of weakness and that way He gets the credit for what He does. So I do believe that’s at the heart and soul of what He did.
Sid: Okay, at what time did the shaking if, you will, the electricity going through your body stop?
Bill: It was 6:38.
Sid: Okay at 6:39 did you just stay in bed and process or did you jump out of bed or did you tell your wife, what happened?
Bill: No I got up I didn’t tell anyone I didn’t tell anyone. The next night it started the moment I got in bed and the 3rd night it hit me and my wife together. By that time of course she knew what was going on but I didn’t tell anyone I was processing I couldn’t figure it out. It was a great mystery to me and now I have hind sight I could see that He was dealing with the fear of man, He was dealing with dignity these issues. At the time I was bewildered.
Sid: I’ll tell you what we’re running out of time right now but on tomorrow broadcast I want to find out the first time you lost your dignity after this event. But before that I have to believe one of the most significant things that God has taught you all of these years is how to host His presence, and this was a process in which He taught you how. I asked you before we went on the air why for your workbook and your 2 DVD’s and your book. Why did you call it “Hosting the Presence” why didn’t you call it “Welcoming the Presence” why hosting?
Bill: Well if you have a special guest come to your home you want to host them, you do extra things. You make sure that you have your nicest tableware you know you have the table cloth, you have the special meal you’re doing everything to honor the guest. And I realized that the Holy Spirit is a permanent resident in me but I like to live with that sense of honor and celebration of this one that I get to host, that I get to truly get to welcome Him; but I’m hosting Him and I’m turning the affection of my whole value system to just valuing and celebrating the fact that God is with me but He’s not just in me which I’m grateful for but He rests upon me. And when He rests upon me it changes everything around me.
Sid: How important is it for you to be aware of this and for those that are listening to be able to participate with the Holy Spirit and have His presence and know how His presence can increase in their life?
Bill: Oh, it’s extremely vital. You know any… we know that any of us that become obsessed with a problem we become fearful, we become anxious, we communicate that nonverbally. We carry the environment of fear and anxiety with us where ever we go. We can walk in a room and make everybody tense. Well turn, well make that you know turn that around and flip it around and you know that the person who lives conscious of the Holy Spirit actually carries a presence into a room and the atmosphere changes instantly.
Sid: Woops we’re out of time.
Sid: You know I was listening on the radio one day I’m driving home from the ministry and I was listening to Sean Hannity. And Sean had a guy on an author I’d never heard of him before his name was Joel Rosenberg and Joel says I’m an evangelical Christian and my father comes from an Orthodox Jewish background. And I thought hmm I’m going to really listen to this interview. Then Sean was saying things like “This fellow is prophetic he was talking about the terrorist attack before it occurred he had a best selling book out called “The Last Jihad.” And he had all of this prophetic stuff and Sean was raving about this guy so I figured I’d get him on the phone and let’s find out about Joel Rosenberg who wrote the book “The Last Jihad” and his latest book is titled “The Last Days.” Joel so I can get to know you just a little bit tell me about your father’s background.
Joel: Sure, well Sid thank you so much for having me on the air I’m glad you caught that interview and picked up that there was a story behind the story I appreciate that very much. My Dad was raised Orthodox Jewish in Brooklyn he comes from a family…his parents were children rather his grandparents had escaped from Russia in the first few years of the 1900’s. They lived in Minx at a time when Czar was whipping out town after town of Jews.
Sid: Interesting my heritage is from Minx too but go ahead.
Joel: What years did your family come over?
Sid: Well my grandfather came over in probably 1938 or something like that.
Joel: Well, this was around 1905 and 1906 and again God’s grace they got out by God’s grace they didn’t settle in Poland or Austria or Germany they were able to make it across the continent, got a boat to Ellis Island. And like any good Jewish family they set up shop in Brooklyn. And that’s where my Dad grew up in the Bedfordstizes area of Brooklyn. He was bit of a rebel so at 18 he decided to set off for California the promise land.
Joel: To become an architect and I think he went about as far away from his family as he could for a number of different reasons. I would say during that time he had really become an agnostic. The Orthodox Judaism his family practiced quite honestly was much more pharisaical and religious do and don’ts than it was spiritual and it disillusioned him. He eventually got a job as an architect in Syracuse, New York where my mother an agnostic Methodist was a doing graduate work at the university. They met and got married and they were really what I would call and maybe this era I would call seekers. They read the Bonifide Neata, the Koran, they read the Bible together, they visited churches and they were constantly talking about you know “There must be a God.” You know this was the 60’s and they were a little bit older and of course married so they weren’t really liked hippies or anything but they were definitely…they were lost but they were searching. And in 1973 they happened to visit a church where somebody really carefully and clearly communicated that Jesus is the Messiah. And they carefully communicated the way to salvation. My Mom heard that just instantly knew that’s what we’d been looking for and there was an altar call and she went forward just assuming that my Dad was a couple of steps behind her and he wasn’t.
Sid: It’s a real strong thing because if we don’t know anything about Judaism the one thing we know is what a Jew doesn’t do. A Jew doesn’t believe in Jesus. And most Gentiles don’t understand what a hard decision that is even for a Jewish person that’s turned off on religion.
Joel: That’s right and it was very…his mother my Dad’s mother when she was walking down the street if there was a church she would cross the street and walk on the other side. And she was deeply against Christianity.
Sid: My grandfather shared the story…well my father shared the story about my grandfather on the other side of the family on my mother’s side was Minx. My father’s side was Poland and my grandfather would walk by a church and spit at the church every time he would walk by it because he attributed the worst things that have happened to Jewish people was due to Christianity.
Joel: Yeah, it’s a hard legacy some mistakes, some serious mistakes of people in the name of Christianity and some of course really twisting Christianity to do evil. Either way yeah this is where my Dad was he was yeah, he was a searcher but he couldn’t quite believe that this is it.
Sid: I’m going to take you Joel to January of 1984 here you are a young man struggling with your own faith what do you believe, what don’t you believe. As a matter of fact you weren’t experiencing much joy being part of religious Christianity. And one evening in 1984 you were actually upset with God.
Joel: That’s right. Well my parents my Dad did 6 months later come to receive Christ and Jesus as the Messiah. So they started taking us to church and kind of began growing up in a church background but it wasn’t connecting with me in my heart. And I was getting to the point as a Junior in high school that I was not experiencing…I think I was mad at God because I said “God you promised in your Bible love, joy, hope and happiness, peace I’m not experiencing any of it so either I don’t get it or it’s not true.” And this was you know probably common adolescence but it was also I think God was really almost forcing me but He was really requiring me to wrestle with Him. And of course I learned later that he who wrestles with God. So I was really wrestling with it I was angry and I was slipping into a depression week, after week over the course of that school year. But one night I had just gone through my little lip me “God you’re not doing anything for me, what have You done for me lately? That type of thing and God stopped me dead in my tracks and in my heart it was as though He was speaking in an audible voice although I don’t think He was. But in my heart it was clear He said “Joel do you ever spend time reading my word?” Now there was a technical answer I could have given yes I had read the Bible but I knew what He was asking and the answer was “No.” And I said “No Lord I’m not doing that.” He said “Joel, do you ever spend time talking to me in prayer?” And again I had to say “Honestly no, I’m not doing that in a regular basis in a furiously way.” And He said “Why would you expect to experience My blessings if you don’t know Me?” End of the conversation it was like the frequency turned off. But I knew at that moment that God had been so merciful to me it just changed everything in that moment to just hear God ask me a rhetorical question but one that helped me understand that He was listening to me and that He had an answer for me.
Sid: There is nothing more exciting when anyone comes to that personal realization that God is real and personal and interested in me as an individual. I have heard God’s voice several times in my life. I wish that it would be every day but I have heard God’s voice and I have to tell you Joel there is nothing to compare to it. I wouldn’t take a billion dollar for being about to hear God’s voice and to get instruction.
Joel: It was a powerful moment for me and it developed a veraciousness in me for the word of God and prayer. I mean I just dove into the scriptures and just between that January of my Junior year and the fall that I went into my Senior year I went to the Olympics to share the gospel with some friends in Los Angeles the summer of ’84. I started a Bible study in evangelism group in my high school. Man that was really a controversial move and we shared our faith with just about everybody in that high school 1500 people. And people could see even though I had been brought up in the church now at this point in my life even though I had name Joel Rosenberg it was always a little confused by that.
Joel: But they could see that I had been just a little down and a little more oomph as a Junior. And I was just on fire for God my Senior year and people noticed that and they asked questions and God gave me answers and I just awe man it was just accelerating just abiding with God in His word it was just was extraordinary.
Sid: I have to ask you a question I know that you one day you ask God to help you write a book etcetera but in your wildest imagination did you think that you would write a book that would be Number 1 on Amazon.com, that for 11 weeks it would be on the New York Times best seller list that. I mean that you would be interviewed by Rush Limbaugh, by Sean Hannity.
Joel: By you! My wife and I when we first moved to Washington we used to listen to your show it just happened to be on at the exact moment we’d drive to work and we’d listen to those trumpets and that’s where we heard the word “Mishpochah” I don’t think I ever heard the word in Hebrew school so.
Joel: So yeah I mean no, I never imagined.
Sid: What’s the purpose of your books? Why are you really and truly…underline, underline why are you writing your books I mean Who’s Who, I mean the top people in America I mean are talking about this book but why did you write it?
Joel: To share the gospel, I mean I had always wanted to write novels and screen plays since I was a kid but when God finally gave me the time and said “Okay, this is the time to write” He had refined my heart to the point where I didn’t want to do it to be successful in some worldly sense. I wanted to write a story that drew people in out of adventure.
Sid: Let me tell you it not only draws people in I have to give people a warning I mean I got so excited when I was reading it I had to put it down a little bit to calm down. Let me read what Sean Hannity has to say about your first book “The Last Jihad.” Buckle up “The Last Jihad” is a high speed hard pounding edge of the seat, rollercoaster ride into the heart of darkness. It feels ripped from tomorrow’s headlines, this stuff could really (I could picture Sean saying this) this stuff could really happen.” I mean I can see how God is using this book because it’s one of the top secular books in America. But I have to tell you as good as your first book was you out did yourself in your next book “The Last Days”…
SID: In 2008, Glenda Jackson went to Heaven. What were you told? What did you see?
GLENDA: Two angels came down and took me into Heaven, and took me to the throne where Jesus and our Heavenly Father are sitting. And I couldn’t even look at him. I just bowed there. And all at once, just a spirit of weeping came upon me, and I saw these angels bringing in golden shields. And I asked the Lord, “What is this?” And he said, “This is shields of faith. My people are using them. My ministers aren’t. They’re going to the world for their needs to be met.” And he said, “They don’t want my faith anymore.” And he told me that faith means forsaking all I take Him.
SID: That’s an acronym. Forsaking him.
GLENDA: Yes. Forsaking all I take Him.
SID: He taught you how faith operates. Give us one nugget that you were taught from Heaven about faith.
GLENDA: Well he told me that to do the works you’ve got to believe. He said that, “I’m not up here praying. I’m the intercessor.” But he said, “I’m not praying for people to get saved. I’m not praying for people to get healed.” I began to weep and I said, “I thought that’s what you were all about.” And he said, “That’s up to you guys on Earth.” Well he didn’t say “guys”, he said “my people on Earth.” He said, “You’ve got to keep the shields of faith, you know, it’s spiritual, the shield.” But he said, “What did I tell Simon?” And I said, “You told Simon, Simon, Simon, Satan has desired to sift thee as weep.” And he said, “I prayed that your faith will not fail.” He said, “Go tell my people I’m up here praying over every one of my people’s faith that it will not fail.” And then I heard a voice behind me and I knew it was Paul. I didn’t even have to turn around. I knew his voice like if I had always known him. And you’ve got eyes in the back of your head in Heaven. And I saw him, and he was a small man. And he said, “Remember what I said.” He said, “Above all, take the shield of faith.” And that’s what we got to do.
SID: Glenda, there’s time slipping away. What has God shown you that will happen in the future?
GLENDA: He showed me that if Christians don’t start praying more than they ever have, even the churches, become the house of prayer, this next election.
SID: Presidential election.
GLENDA: Election is not going to take place. That it’s going to be suspended because evil is going to arise and some disasters are going to happen, and some things are going to be put in place, and the president is not going to be removed. He’s going to stay in. And these things are going to happen, and they’re going to be very bad if we don’t get a hold of God.
SID: What other things is he showing you?
GLENDA: He’s showing me that the church has got to get back to prayer. Prayer is the power he gave the church. And we got to get the faith of God. Paul said, “Do we have God faith or have we taught man’s wisdom faith?” It’s what He said in Corinthians. And He said, “I come and I showed in the demonstration of the power of God my faith, it’s God’s faith.” We got to get back that faith.
SID: Are we supposed to be hearing God at this point? How important is it for us to hear God?
GLENDA: We got to hear God or we’re going to be deceived. God is talking. In Revelation, He’s talked seven times for, “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the spirit is saying unto the church.” And John the Baptist, remember this, he had to be out in the wilderness. He had to learn the voice of God. Then he went in and they hadn’t heard the voice of God in about 2000 years. And what happened? When he was told by God, “When you see the man come in and the dove light on his head,” as soon as he saw that he said, “Behold the Lamb of God”, what happened? The heavens opened and God began to speak for the first time in about 2000 years. And what did Peter say in the Book of Acts? He said, “God is going to speak one more time.” Jesus spoke in Heaven and now he’s going to speak to the earth. And we’ve got to know his voice or we’re going to be deceived.
SID: Now what kind of times are coming, in your opinion?
GLENDA: Horrible times. Times, such as, the Bible said times such as never before. The earthquakes, all of that, are going to intensify. But we don’t have to be afraid. We’ve got to know God’s voice. We’re going to live supernaturally. We’re not going to live like the world lives. We’re going to live supernaturally, God showed me, like they did in the wilderness, like they did in Jesus’ day when he walked on the earth. We got to believe. If we can’t believe we’re not going to make it.
SID: Okay. You’ve heard about Heaven. You’ve heard about Hell. Now the question is, not just where will you be, and that’s the most important thing, but while you’re here there’s a purpose. You are here because God put you here, because God has a destiny in your life, because there really is meaning. You said that tonight that you don’t have meaning in your life. You’re here with a destiny. You’re here with meaning. I want you to make Jesus your Lord. It’s the simplest thing you ever did, but it’s a matter of your heart. I’m willing to surrender. Are you willing right now? Then say this prayer out loud, you at home, you in the studio audience, say this prayer with me. Dear God.
GLENDA: Dear God.
SID: I’m a sinner.
GLENDA: I’m a sinner.
SID: Against you.
GLENDA: Against you.
SID: And you alone have I sinned.
GLENDA: Have I sinned.
SID: And I’m so sorry.
GLENDA: And I’m so sorry.
SID: I believe the blood of Jesus.
GLENDA: I believe the blood of Jesus.
SID: Washes away my sins.
GLENDA: Washes away my sins.
SID: And I am clean.
GLENDA: And I am clean.
SID: And now that I am clean.
GLENDA: And now that I am clean.
SID: I ask Jesus to live inside of me.
GLENDA: Jesus to live inside of me.
SID: And be my Lord.
GLENDA: And be my Lord.
SID: I love you Lord.
GLENDA: I love you Lord.
SID: I am so glad I know you.
GLENDA: I’m so glad I know you.
SID: Fill me with your Holy Spirit.
GLENDA: Fill me with your Holy Spirit.