Sid: You know something that is bothering me no end Mishpocha, and I’m sure many of you are bother by it we’re losing a generation of children. I mean I’ve never seen such deterioration so rapidly before our very eyes. I have on the telephone Dr. Tedd Tripp he’s pastor of Grace Fellowship Church in Hazelton, Pennsylvania and he’s got long list of degrees. But the reason I have him on the show is that he wrote a book called “Shepherding a Child’s Heart.” And what age range would you say this is for Tedd?
Tedd: Well the book is written for parents at any age and those periods where parents are nurturing children it’s not really about the adult children but it’s for parents that are in the process of nurturing children that are pre-schoolers, school age kids, teenagers, all of the way through where they leave home.
Sid: And I’ll tell you some that really speaks reams to me and that is teenagers when parents start practicing these principals in your book they actually like being home. I don’t know too many teenagers that want to be with the old folks, their parents.
Tedd: Well I think that I think that that’s a matter of vision and we can perhaps talk about that even yet this week. But there’s a matter of having a good visions for engaging our teenagers and I think that there’s some exciting things to think about.
Sid: But comment on this statement I made, we, and I’m talking about the church we are losing a generation of young people why?
Tedd: Well I think that there are a lot of reasons and one is certainly parents are very busy and I think that because they are very busy and I think that because they’re very busy parents are failing to do the job of nurturing their children. And the whole task of formative instruction really doing what Deuteronomy 6 calls parents to do; instructing their kids in the ways of the Lord, parents are not doing that.
Sid: Wait a second a lot of parents are sending their children to Christian school they have them in Sunday School every Sunday but it’s still not working why?
Tedd: All of those things are supplementary I think to the task of the parent to be shepherding their children at home and to be opening the word of God with their children and teaching the children God’s ways in the family. And that’s not taking place in many many churches. I talk in seminars about family worship and the importance of family worship and people again and again come up to me and say “What exactly is family worship I don’t have any idea about going about doing that.” And I think that Deuteronomy 6 says “These things shall be upon your heart and you shall impress them upon your children.” There’s a whole paradigm there for providing for what I call “Formative instruction” where you’re giving your children a biblical culture a biblical way of thinking that is rooted in the scriptures…
Sid: And you know excuse me for interrupting you but I’m thinking about a church service that I was in the other night and I was watching the young people and I’ve seen these young people in church since they were little babies and they’re not paying one bit of attention they’re coloring they’re drawing they’re not even involved they have they’ve literally learned how to detach themself from the service. And I said “It’s almost until those parents realize what’s happening to those children?”
Tedd: Yeah you keep raising these issues and that’s another whole saw of mind I think that one of the things that we’ve done in the church and this maybe controversial in some circles but I’ll put it out there and people can agree or disagree. But I think one of the things I think we’ve done is we created this junior church phenomenal where we absent all the children from the service and they go and they have their little entertaining worship light service that is focused for them…
Sid: And in most cases it’s a shade better than secular just a shade.
Tedd: Yes and I’m persuaded that what we need to be doing is we need to be training children to worship with their families in church and pastors need to be recognizing the fact that as I speak I have children in my audience and I want to speak in ways that the children can understand as well as the adults I want to bring in illustrations and application where I’m speaking to children and drawing the children into the service. I want to use illustration that will engage children so that I’m cooperating with parents that are endeavoring to teach children this is for you too and they’re trying to train their children and I want to cooperate that training process by speaking in a way that engages children and draws children in.
Sid: You know I’m speaking by theory but I’m speaking though my heart right now and knowing the history of the early church there’s something so significant about coming from a Jewish background the Sabbath, or the Shabbat, at home with the family together and praying together and talking together and eating together and we seem to have lost that.
Tedd: Yes we’ve lost that sense of a culture that Christianity is about a culture it is a…it’s about helping kids to understand the whole world through the lens of the word of God. I think that the Shabbat practice of family really preparing themselves on the…at sundown on Friday for the Sabbath day and the whole notion that we’re setting this day aside we’re going to call this day a delight we’re going to focus our thought and our whole focus for this whole day for the worship and the glory of God and enjoying what God has given us freely to enjoy. I think that whole notion has been lost there’s no sense of Sabbath in the church at large at all today.
Sid: So tell me you hit a nerve when you said “Most families don’t know how to worship together.” So how do we do it?
Tedd: Well I think that Deuteronomy 6 provides the excellent paradigm it’s very interesting what the vision of Deuteronomy 6 is. God says to them “I’m give to them these commands so that you and your children and your children’s children may walk in the ways of the Lord.” There’s this 3 generation vision.
Tedd: That’s right.
Sid: It’s a promise!
Tedd: That’s right and you know what I tell parents when I teach in a seminar is when your training your child when you’re addressing the heart of this child this heart whose heart has strayed into some false path and you’re addressing his heart and you’re drawing along side of this child you’re not just thinking about how to survive this moment you’re thinking kingdom of God you’re thinking “Where will my grandchildren be 50 years from now?” And so my training of my child has this long range vision that not just for my child but even for his children as well I’m training. And so Deuteronomy 6 says that we have this 3 generation vision and then it says “These things shall be upon your heart and you shall impress them on your children.” Let’s face if children…if parents are not dazzled by God themselves if parents are not overwhelmed with the glory and the goodness of God the greatness of the salvation that has been given to us in Yeshua; if they are not dazzled by those things and overwhelmed with the glory and the goodness and the greatness of God then they’re not going to transmit that to their children. You can’t give away what you don’t have.
Sid: So tell me about how we worship.
Tedd: And I…so I think that we gather our family together every day and we worship God together as a family. Our practice when our children were young I read the Proverbs to my children were at the breakfast table every morning.
Sid: Why Proverbs?
Tedd: Because the Proverbs are filled with God’s wisdom there’s 31 chapters and a chapter for every day of the month they confront all the issues of life everything from sexual or moral purity to honesty to integrity to diligence to stealing to companionship to what it means to a man what it means to be a woman all of those topics of daily living are addressed in the proverbs. And I would read the Proverbs every day while the kids were eating their cornflakes. By the time…
Sid: But wait a second what if they’re real young I mean what age were you reading proverbs?
Tedd: I was reading the Proverbs to them you know; I was reading the Proverbs in the presence of a toddler in a high chair when I had children that were 4 and 6.
Sid: It penetrates the spirit even though if the mind may not comprehend.
Tedd: It does and what you do you know one of my sons said something to me very wise recently he said “I want to give my children large truths to grow into not like airy truths to outgrow but large truths to grow into; I want to give them a vision of the greatness, the grandness of God that is as toddlers they can’t even possible fully grasp but they will grow into the understanding of what those things are.”
Sid: So you’re a grandfather do your children read Proverbs to their children now?
Tedd: Yeah they do and they read and pray with their kid’s everyday. And you know we were…what we did we read Proverbs in the morning and in the evening we had a time at the dinner table that’s as soon as the meal was over before you even cleared the table because if anyone gets up their all gone each one goes their separate ways. You want to gather them while they’re all there and we would sing, I learned to play a half a dozen chords on the guitar so we would sing with the kids and we would sing Bible passages and even hymns and chorus so we would sing together, we would work on memorizing Bible passages together, we would read a little section from the Bible and we would discuss it. And you know you have to be sensitive to the ages of your kids if you have young children read the narratives the Bibles full of stories; the kids are fascinated by the stories of the Old Testament and the New Testament.
Sid: And you know another thing that really intrigued me is when they get to be teenagers you really read to them the prophets why the prophets?
Tedd: Because the prophets, the prophets for one thing is 1/3 of our Bible if we’re going to say we’re Bible believing Christians we can’t ignore the prophets. And the message of the prophets is judgment; the message of the prophets is the severity of God it’s a God who was willing even to cast his covenant people out of the land of promise and preserve only a remnant.
Sid: Yeah but wouldn’t that scare the children?
Tedd: Hey listen “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.” Step number one square 1 in wisdom’s pathway is the fear of the Lord and I want my children to have a healthy sense of awe and reference of a God that is sovereign and holy and glorious and marvelous beyond description.
Sid: I’ll tell you Tedd it sure beats the teenager bobbing in for breakfast running late with purple hair earrings all over their body and not paying one bit of attention to their family for a teenager like that is their hope?
Tedd: Well I think there’s always hope because God is full of grace and mercy.
Sid: And we’re out of time.
Sid: I have a man on the other line I’m speaking to him somewhere in Florida. This is not his real name but we’ll call him Dr. Mark Gabriel, and you’ll understand why in a moment. He formally was a professor of Islamic history. A doctorate degree in Islamic studies, he taught at the most prestigious Islamic university in the world. I’d like to go back to kind of the beginning Mark. Tell me about where you were born and your upbringing.
Mark: I was born in south of Egypt in a Muslim family and I have 6 brothers and 1 sister. I am the only one of my brothers who was chosen by his parents to offer him to the God of Islam, Allah, to be his servant. This is why my family start to help me memorize the book of the Quran at the age of 5, and I finished memorizing the entire book at the age of 12. From there they send me to the Al-Asr Islamic school and I start to continue studying and other Islamic school until I graduated and I entered into Al-Azhar Islamic University. Which means the most oldest university in the world in Cairo and Egypt.
Sid: Now when you first started seeing contradictions in the Quran, what did you do about that?
Mark: You know this contradiction actually started with me from the first year when I was entered into the university because I start to concentrate deeply studying of the Islamic history and the Islamic theology. I was confused really by what happened really, what was happening during the Islamic history, and also I become very confused because of the contradiction between what Mohammed he did during his life, and what the word of Quran tells me. So I find myself started to walk in a dark valley of confusion and contradiction you see between the Islamic theology and the Islamic history, and the life of the prophet of Islam himself.
Sid: For instance in your book you mention just a minor contradiction but it is a contradiction in what is supposed to be a book from god. You said in one place that Muslims were forbidden to take alcohol, and in other places they’re allowed to.
Mark: Yeah this is the most sad issue you see, and you cannot really find a right answer or a good answer from the Muslim scholars.
Sid: In one place it says to be nice to Christians, in another place it says to kill Christians.
Sid: I mean, when you saw all of these contradictions and probably at that point you didn’t even know about the historical contradictions. When you saw all of these contradictions and you… did you take it to a professor and what did he say?
Mark: I was always questioning my professors there, and the contradiction really was take the place, and the word really neglected my right at that time because I have most of my neighbors they are Christians in Egypt. I wasn’t know how to deal with them according to Islamic law, and according to Islamic theology which I am busy studying here. So all the time I go to my professor and I’d ask him, and I told him “But how the Quran tells me that, and why the prophet Mohammed he did that?” So all the time my professor he just ask me to go to a specific book, this book explains about Muslims they are not allowed to ask questions about the basic of the Islamic teaching, and the basic of the Islamic beliefs, and what the prophet himself did in his life. It explains to me the Quran itself commands Muslims not to ask questions. For example, there’s a verse in the Quran I will read it in Arabic (reading from Quran in Arabic) “All who asks oh believers don’t ask about something because if you’re going to find the answer you will be disappointed.”
Sid: You know what’s amazing, I see the parallels between this and traditional Judaism. A Rabbi would not say that but he would say “Well I’m not holy enough, those that lived closer to the time when God spoke to Moses understood the scriptures better. So I can’t think for myself I can only tell you what the ancient rabbis said.” So it’s very very similar it is amazing to me, but you reached a point where you were really questioning your faith and you told the wrong people about it. You got fired from the university, then you were kidnapped by the Secret Police. What happened?
Mark: This is the most believing time was in my life in Egypt. I was never even dreamed that I would be treated in that way because all my life, even when I grow up, when I was a little boy and I finished the entire book at the age 12 my family did a great celebration in my area. Many hundreds of people they came to celebrate with my family because their little boy finished writing the book. I was finished all my education in a successful way. I became the 2nd student of my class who was contending with 6000 students at that time. So for me when I start questioning Islam and the way they really act to me, and later when the Egyptian Secret Police came and arrested from my home around 3:00 in the morning they kidnap me from my house. They put in me the prison for 2 weeks. The first week they left me in the first week for the first day without food, without water, without anything. The first day they came and they start interviewing me and find out what’s really going on in my life and why I keep questioning Islam, accusing Islam, insulting Allah, insulting the prophet of Islam, insulting the book of Islam, and all the time you see I answer these questions. “People I didn’t convert from Islam. Why do you accuse me that I convert from Islam?” They told me “Only” um um um what you call it, “for a person to question Islam and to do what you did the only way we can understand is that you are converted already from Islam.” I said to them “People how I can betray my religion, my people, my culture, my country easy like that? I am asking questions why can’t you help me to answer these questions? The professors at the university why they just can’t sit with me and just answer my questions and help me?” So they tortured me when they… you see… I’d just been for the first week the last 4 days in the first week under horrible persecution from them. When they find out that there is no evidence really can see I’m really converted from Islam because I was kidding saying to them “Why do you accuse me that I convert? You see Islam is my culture, my language, my family, my people, my history. Why, why, why you want to push me out of Islam? Why you can’t help me?” So however they stopped their persecution and…
Sid: Well from what I’ve read in your book what happened to you they not only whipped you, they whipped you until you were unconscious. Then they poured cold water on you so that you would wake up and then they’d continue whipping you, but you actually I don’t quite understand this, they put you in some water with rats that were supposed to eat you?
Mark: Yes cage full of water yes, with the rats yes. They said “…Okay this one is just using his knowledge and try to against Islam. We just going to destroy his brain.” So they put me in this cage full of water and they put hungry rats at that time for the whole night. It just was like a horrible dream for me, even when I left out of Egypt I could not really understand…
Sid: Did the rats hurt you badly?
Mark: No, no, no.
Sid: It sounds like Daniel in the lion’s den, or Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego in the furnace of fire they were supernaturally protected.
Mark: It was only my head comes out of the water and the rats they are just swimming over the water and…
Mark: Running you see around my head and come and just touch me in my face, touching my ears, and touching in my head, and I my heart was really in heaven praying asking the Lord because at that time I really didn’t meet with Jesus Christ. That time I was crying before the God, the true God, the One Who created me, created the world. How can He leave me alone here? So…
Sid: What about the dogs that they sent after you, explain that?
Mark: Yes after that they take me and put me in a room with hungry dog. When they take me to the room they told it was a friend of yours he came he just want to see you. I thought that this man came one of my friends came to fetch me or to find what happening to me, but when they put me in the room and closed the door behind me and I find there is only dog standing inside the room. I say “Oh God just help me with what this people trying to do to me.” So I find the dog just came, and what you call it, just started to sneff me?
Sid: Smell you.
Mark: Smell me, so I sit in the middle of the room and I just start to pray and asking God to deliver me from that danger and… so I slept and slept and I wake up and I find the dog he’s just sitting next to me…
Sid: So you’re saying to me that this dog was starving. They put this vicious dog in a room with you to destroy you, I read this story in your book. Instead of destroying you he wakes you up by licking you and staying by your side.
Mark: My yes…
Sid: So how did… you must of wondered how you had that supernatural protection?
Mark: This was really strange for my faith inside me that there is a God behind, there is God there, but I don’t know Him but I want to meet with Him.
Sid: We’re out of time.
Sid: This week I’ve been talking about what God has done in my life and I am one grateful Jewish man. A lot of people ask “Sid how did you get into radio?” Well I’d like to say I heard a word from God and I just did it but that would be a lie and then I wouldn’t even go to heaven. See I told you we had started a Messianic Jewish congregation and we had invited a man after a year or so to be the rabbi his name was Manny Brotman.
He had his own ministry, and so I was in the oil business at the time and I didn’t have to work much because God was supernaturally blessing my business and I volunteered my services at his office. I was sort of helping him with business things because that was my background.
One day a man from WCTN Radio in Potomac, Maryland came in said “Manny I’d like you to start radio show and Sid be involved in it.” We thought that was a good idea and I said “Wonderful Manny I’ll be the business manager and you be the on air personality.” He said “Fine” but he said “I want you to do one thing Sid I want you to be the announcer.” I said “No I don’t want to be the announcer.” He said “Well Sid you understand our ministry better than anyone else you must be the announcer.”
I did an awful job, I really did because I thought I could do it without having a script. So the next day I came back with a script and read and somehow got through it. So I was the announcer, but then a strange thing happened every time that Manny was supposed to do an interview something would happen. An emergency would occur and either I would do the interview or there’d be no show. I thought “Oh I can’t do this there’ll be all sorts of blank space, dead time I won’t know any questions to ask! This isn’t… I’m supposed to be on the business… Don’t they… Someone…” But I had to do it. I went in kicking and screaming. As a result I found out something amazing me. I found out God had gifted me for this. I found out when I didn’t have a question in my mind, a question would come out of my mouth, I really liked it.
That’s how I got into the radio ministry and the rest is history. I started out by interviewing just Jewish people that believed in Jesus and it was a lot of fun I really enjoyed it. But after a while I got bored, the same old same old. Remember the book I wrote? Remember the song I wrote? “There must be Something More.” Well I was getting bored and I figured if I was getting bored my listeners must have been getting bored. So I said “Okay Holy Spirit You show me who to interview. I don’t care whether they’re Jewish or not Jewish. I don’t care. All I want to do is interview people you want to interview.” So that’s how the Messianic Vision Radio Ministry evolved.
Then one day, a friend of mine from Canada called and they said “Sid we believe you should have a television show. We’re going to put $25,000 into a station in Canada. We’re giving them a check of $25,000 and we want you to do your shows there. So in affect you have a credit there.” That’s how we got into television.
The concept for television, our television show It’s Supernatural is so right. I mean let’s face it what is flooding the airways of secular television today? Shows about angels, shows about miracles, even watch a Larry King show and one day you’ll have New Age guru, the next day he’ll have a real Christian on. The world doesn’t know the difference between the counterfeit and the real thing, between the demonic and God. No one is giving God the credit in these miracles most of the people they just show them, but they don’t give God the credit, if they do they can’t be on they can’t get sponsors. So it’s a Catch-22 you can’t talk about Jesus you just talk about angels, maybe some good is better than no good. No! If you can’t talk about Yeshua, or Jesus, then why waste your time?
So we started It’s Supernatural Television, and the whole concept was for me to be a Larry King without suspenders, but with discernment and posture myself as an investigative reporter asking hard questions of people that have had genuine miracles, but the guests all happen to be Christians.
Then in the last 2 minutes I tell people what their heart is craving. Their heart if they’re Jewish it’s not craving to believe in Jesus, I guarantee you that they don’t want to believe in Jesus. If they’re Gentile it’s not craving to be born again, if they want to be born again they would born again, but it is craving for intimacy with the Creator. I don’t care if they’re a radical atheist. I tell you their heart is craving and crying, and shouting “Show me that I’m wrong I want to know that I’m wrong!” But we’re too radical to get a secular sponsor. I don’t want to talk much about money on television because we’re after unsaved people.
So what God has done is He has supernaturally opened doors on secular television outside of the United States. For instance, we are on in every little city in Ukraine. Then He’s opened up doors of Christian television. Praise God for Christian television because unsaved people do watch Christian television because they can’t see anything descent on secular television. Anything that’ll satisfy that void inside of them, there must be something more that same void I had I know about that void. I know there’s only one answer and it’s the King of the Jews, Jesus the Messiah, He is the answer.
So the last 2 minutes I look into the camera and I say “Do you want the same intimacy with God my guest has? Do you want to be able to reach into that invisible realm and know for yourself God loves you? Do you want to experience His love?” I tell people that there’s no other name given to men in which we must be saved but the name of Jesus.
Now I am proclaiming what I have been teaching. I believe that very shortly… I believe… I have been saying less than 2 years but I believe it’s going to be this year. We are going to get large enough sums of money in the ministry, people that love God enough to sacrificially give at this brief window of opportunity that we have in the United States of America. This financial prosperity we have, do you think it’s going to last forever? No it’s not!
But I tell you the night is coming and it’s coming very soon but while it’s daylight we must run with the message. Will you lift up my arms? Could you picture our television show on MTV? Could you picture reaching a generation of teenagers instead of what’s going… they’re literally destroying their body with this body piercing, they’re getting into necromancy and communicating with the dead, into all sorts of sexual perversion. Could you picture if they were just as radical for God?
I see the anointing of God increasing on our television show. It is state of the art secular quality and I’m believing that we will be very very soon in every city of the United States on secular television. On BET, on SyFy, on Family Channel, and someone’s just channel surfing. I wish you could read the letters of people in foreign countries that say “The power of God just came in and healed me. I’m writing, I never knew there was such miracles, I’m so intrigued by what you’re running.” They all say a prayer of salvation with me at the end. Will you be part of this team, or this family, or this army? It’s such a simple idea but it’s brilliant because it’s a God idea and it’s time has come.
So I’ve told you a bit… Oh! I didn’t even mention about the prophetic dreams I’ve had of books. In fact the book I’m offering this week is called “There Must Be Something More.” This was the first book I wrote it’s my testimony book it’s designed to give the Jewish people a special section by Dr. Michael Brown at the end to answer the hard questions that Jewish people are asking. I want you to read this book for yourself and then give it to the Jewish person that God has cross your path. This book came to me in a dream and God said I must write that. In fact in the dream he said I’m going to tie you up and I’m not going to untie you till you write this book.” I know there are people that are saved today as a result of this book. On the cover of the book is the original sheet music that I wrote when I was a nonbeliever and it’s the song “There Must Be Something More.” This is actually the original sheet music right on the cover of the book.
This is God’s time to reach Jewish people with the gospel and God has a method to reach Jewish people. The Jew requires a sign, the miraculous, you see it all tied together. If you go to the Jew first it opens up a supernatural door of evangelism to all people. What are you going to take to heaven with you? Your money? Your health? What are you going to take to heaven with you? You’re only going to take one thing to heaven with you, souls. That’s why Proverbs says “He who wins souls is wise.” Will you team up with me? There’s a short window of opportunity. We can change the destiny of America. I believe if enough young people are touched and radically saved that we’ll change the destiny of the United States of America.
Sid: My guest on the telephone Dr. Michael Brown President of Fire School of Ministry in Pensacola, Florida and New York. Shortly Pensacola will more to Charlotte, North Carolina. We’re talking this week on his latest book “Revolution in the Church.” And Mike we’ve been talking a lot this week of how the church went astray and doesn’t look remotely close to what God intended. Which happens with all things where humans are involved given enough time, but I want you to dream with me for a minute after all you’re a pioneer. Describe to me what God’s church should look like based on the word of God.
Michael: Yeah I don’t ever want to despise what God is doing in the body and it’s a tremendous danger when we think we have it or we are it or we get elitist in any way. But to me there are some very simple things that I see here and there in different parts of the world I see believers living this out I see it here and there in America. The first thing is that people get radically saved in a biblical way so that Jesus now is the Lord and Master of their lives and they’re heartbeat their goal is not just the American dream and it’s not just a nice life and it’s not just success, if God gives that to someone that’s wonderful. But if their heartbeat is how can I glorify God. The heartbeat is “How can I make a difference in this world.” His heartbeat is “How can I reproduce what God’s given me and share it with others.” They’re part of a community of believers whether it’s 200 people or 20 or 10,000 they’re part of a community of believers that really act and live like a community. It’s not just a matter or showing up and looking at the back of somebody’s head in a service once or twice a week it’s a matter of shared lives, it’s a matter of people pouring themselves out one for another. It’s a matter of the Holy Spirit flowing through the whole Body as people are out…
Sid: But you know what some of the people that end up in this end up just isolating themselves.
Michael: Well see what happens is and I do have some warnings and concerns about that in “Revolution in the Church.” We develop the selfish spirituality “Oh I don’t like those big meetings I like meeting in someone’s living room and we just sit and we fellowship for hours and we have pot luck meals and we really got to know one another.” Okay wonderful but how are you advancing the Kingdom, how are you furthering the great commission, how are you impacting the community, how are you glorifying God in the workplace, how are you joining together with other believers in the city to make an impact? So just changing the meeting size alone doesn’t do it. I’m talking about a community where people out on their jobs, people in their homes, people in from their houses. Kids are being raised in a Godly way and there’s a holistic witness of mom and dad and kids and business people and people preaching and teaching and Jesus is being lifted up. And the gifts of Spirit are flowing and God’s setting captives free and not only so something is being raised up with a larger world vision. You know we’ve just seen this Fire Community, Fire Church, here and we are anything but perfect and we are anything but the world model. God forbid anyone thinks that I’m saying “We’ve achieved it.” But here’s what interesting as we’ve gathered people together in our Pensacola Campus and now as we’ve started a campus in New York City. We’ve gathered people with a like heart and say “Hey let’s just try to follow Jesus the way we see it in the Bible; let’s not judge anybody else let’s just go for it.” You know we now have workers that have been sent out directly from our own community in 25 nations of the world. I’m talking about young people, old people, one couple…
Sid: And most people in churches today they’re going to die just sitting in their pew never walking into ministry.
Michael: You know we have 1 couple that went to Germany to start missions work as great-grandparents. We have babies now being born to our couples in Thailand, and India and Africa all of these people just going for it. We’ve just sent out a team of 5 couples mostly with babies to the Philippines to plant a work there and establish a base. And what I’m saying you’ve just got people who love Jesus and are going for it. And yes we have an order and yes we have a certain apostolic structure if you want to call it for sending and establishing works but that’s all secondary. What I’m saying is there are no superstars it’s not just the one or two elite vessels that the job done. We’ve had a family, mom and dad, 6 kids God told them to leave Pensacola and kids spread up to about 17 and 18 years old leave Pensacola go to New York City. I want you to build a house of prayer there in conjunction with the fire work that’s established. God told them to do it they’re responsible Godly people. They packed up they didn’t even have money to move but God told them to do and part of the money the last minute their 1 hour out of New York City still don’t know where they’re going to live and God opens up a place for them because they are responsible Godly and they’ve been devoted, they’ve home schooled their kids and they’ve gone after Jesus. And here we’re watching these things unfold just with regular people going for it. If we could somehow just mobilize, if we could change our mentality and you say “Well Mike that’s going to cost people, people might be rejected, they might be hated, they might be misunderstood.” Exactly! That’s what we sign up for when we come to follow Jesus, we are His disciples we are not here to say our lives we find our lives by losing them by saying “The purpose of my life is not to advance my life and advance my career and advance my education and advance my social status; the purpose of my life is to glorify God by life or by death.” That’s what it means to be a normal disciple and it seems so radical and revolutionary for most but it’s just a New Testament faith.
Sid: But let me read a quote from your new book. “While the lack of submission to authority is a great problem in the Body today, the abuse of spiritual authority is also reaching a critical mess.” What abuse?
Michael: Well I have a whole chapter called “Rebellutionary not Revolutionary.” In other words rebellion, self-will, pride will kill any move will hinder any individual walk. In fact I urge the reader read this chapter before you read the ones about the abuse of authority. On the flipside there’s something very dangerous in the body, which is sometimes people ministering out of their own insecurity, sometimes people not understanding the authority God’s given them basically keep people captive instead of a leader equipping the flock for the flock to go out and do the work of God as God sends them and directs them; what often happens is the leader builds and personal kingdom. It can happen in a church, it can happen in a school, it can happen in an evangelistic ministry.
Sid: But that’s the way it usually is when it’s the one man show.
Michael: Right and I know many pastors that love Jesus that are what you would call one man show that’s how they learned it and it’s the pattern they understood even when they read scripture somehow that’s what they see. But when you have that you often have this authoritarian almost dictatorship kind of thing. The authority just the goal of the authority is to keep people in the safe haven of that one church. “You are safe here under us if you astray away there’s danger.” As opposed to saying God’s given us an army here how can we equip them and build them up, strengthen them in their own walk with God that when persecution broke and they all have to meet in homes and were separated they would all be strong and would all be multiplying and all be going after God. And instead of providing good teaching and shepherding that helps keep people away from error etcetera as good shepherds should with their sheep. Guide them into in the word, nourish them in the things of God, preach the standard of God, be watchman on the walls to see when satanic attack is coming etcetera. Instead of covering people in a good way because the word covering could be used wrongly also. Also what happens instead of covering there is smothering and people even though…
Sid: And even though what you’re saying is even though the motivation could be entirely honorable to protect it ends up stifling.
Michael: Oh it stifles in a terrible way Sid and not only so there’s a chapter I have called “Confronting the Pastoral Fraternity, or How to Disarm the Ministerial Labor Union.”
Sid: A talk about a hot potato.
Michael: And the thing that’s fascinated me is I’ve shown on that topic at citywide pastors meetings and different areas in America and in other countries too leaders have said “Mike I’m so glad you’ve preached.” As I’m saying it I say “Yeah, you need to say it.” Because here’s what happens when you have a labor union the goal of the labor union is not “How can we do the work for the best price for the customer.” The goal of the labor union is “How can we protect our workers and make sure that they’re adequately compensated and make sure that they are secure.” And what happens is we get into this ministerial labor union mentality in different cities and different organizations it can be denominational it has nothing to do with denomination it can be either way, but it’s basically I’ll scratch your back you scratch mine. And as…
Sid: And as politics at its stinkiest!
Michael: If God starts moving at this other guys church down the block he’s got a congregation they’ve been praying and fasting but they’re not one of us. Oh they’re saved but they’re not part of our group and God starts moving God forbid that my people go there and find out there’s more. God forbid that my people go there and find the power of God coming down because I’ve told them “It doesn’t get any better than it is right here in our church.” And instead of rejoicing and saying “Thank God God’s pouring out His Spirit let’s bless our brother, let’s go and receive what we can and let’s hold his hands up and rejoice” it becomes competition, it becomes enterprise. Well if I lose my people then I lose my influence and I lose my money. And it’s the same battle that Jesus had with the religious authorities of His day. In point of fact it locks people into this insecure system. Many pastors will say “Mike you don’t understand I’ve been burned, I’ve been betrayed I’m not going to do it again.” And I know the pain that people can go through the undercutting and the under mining of their lives but I would say that if we can develop a healthy team leadership style and follow a biblical method of raising up people that we can trust, then suddenly the work can expand, suddenly more and more people can be energized and equipped to go out and do the work. And instead of smothering people with authority we can give them a sense of being protected and covered in a good Godly way while they’re released to run their race and go for God and make a difference. And I have people that come in and say you know “We don’t…” you know they’ll ask me “Are you the Senior Pastor of Fire?” I’ll say “Well no we don’t have the senior pastor.” And they say “Well who are you?” And I’ll say “Well, I’m the team leader, we have a leadership team and I’m the leader of our team.” And they say “Well, whose your pastor.” Well we say “Well, we don’t just have one pastor this one Brother Scott is our primary pictorial leader but we have a 5 fold ministry expression that we strive for.” And it messes with people because they just want 1 person in 1 role doing 1 thing and they just sit there and say “I just go to this church and this is my pastor.” And I’m not saying it’s same or wrong if you do that necessarily but it locks us into these little things that sometimes years and years and years we’re going around the same merry-go-round we’re not changing community, we’re not changing the world.
Sid: And then there’s some that are even more controlling and manipulative and use guilt and fear to do this.
Michael: Listen there is one school that I know of…
Sid: I know but we’re out of time come on back tomorrow Mishpochah….
Sid: Well my guest is a board member and has been on several times on Messianic Vision Pastor Kynan Bridges. Kynan there’s an aspect of your life we’ve never talked about that is going to affect every single person that is listening to us. It either affects them now or will affect them, or they would have a love one that is affected now, or will be affected in the future. And that has to do with the whole subject of deliverance. I recently just before Bob Jones the Prophet went to heaven, I was at Rick Joyner’s 30th Anniversary for Ministry and I sat next to him at a table and there was a young woman that her mother knew me and brought her up and she was affected by a demon in a very bad way. And he prayed for her and then he looked over at me Kynan and he said “Sid what you saw done here the average Christian is going to have to know how to do it with the increase in immorality, with the increase of the New Age, with the increase of lawlessness, with the increase of what Hollywood is doing and what television is doing so many of the young people are getting either demonized or oppressed by demons,” and that’s going to be just as in the First Church it was standard it’s going to be standard today. And that’s why I’m so grateful for your brand new book and 4 CD tape series called “Kingdom Authority taking Dominion over the Power of Darkness.” Now I want to take you back as a young man you really realized you were not alone comment on that.
Kynan: Well it’s an amazing thing I got saved, actually I was saved at the age of 9 I professed Christ the first time, but the problem with it I didn’t have any teaching, any mentorship or discipleship so it was about at the age of 15 it was in the 90’s at the time and I got born again and got filled with the Holy Spirit.
Sid: Well you got a 15 year jump on me Kynan I was 30 but go ahead.
Kynan: (Laughing) I knew there was a devil but I didn’t understand spiritual warfare at all I had no understanding of spiritual warfare. And the most eerie thing happened one night I was sleeping in my bed and I felt a dark presence in my room. It was evil it was horrific and this presence that hovered over me began to cease my body I couldn’t speak I couldn’t move. It was as if someone was putting an instrument a sharp instrument through my ear. And it literally went on for minutes and all of a sudden there was a release my heart was pounding I’m sweating and all I could do was run I jumped out of bed and I ran out I ran into my parents bedroom and I thought there’s only one solution to this problem never go to sleep again.
Sid: (Laughing) I think you would have eventually had a problem but go ahead.
Kynan: (Laughing) you know but as I thought about it I said “My God I don’t know what that was” and I didn’t know how to express it. My father wasn’t a believer at the time so he would have thought I was crazy and I went to my pastor and he told me a word I had never heard before oppression. He said “What you experienced is something called demonic oppression.” I had no idea what that was I had never heard that before and he told me “I want you to anoint your bedroom and just plead the blood of Jesus.” And I did that and for a time it subsided and you know Sid the thing is many people have gone through this whether they are Sunday school teachers, pastors, in the corporate world Satan is an equal opportunity oppressor. He really doesn’t care who you are, or your gender, or your social status he really attempts to subsegate God’s people to fear. And that’s what happened to me I didn’t realize it but something happened one night as this episode transpired again right before I was about to be water baptized. I had this horrific experience while I was being suffocated in my sleep. Every time I tried to speak bubbles literally came out like I was underwater. Now I believe that was for 2 reasons one Satan wanted me to be afraid of being baptized and the second one was he was just really trying to kill me so that I couldn’t enter into my destiny. And John 10:10 tells us that it says “The thief comes now to steal, kill and destroy but I’ve come that you might have life and have it more abundantly.” And so what I did Sid I screamed at the top of my lungs “Jesus! Jesus!” and the more I screamed it the more it was able to come out. And finally I screamed out and literally I was yelling at level 10 the name Jesus.
Sid: I’m sure.
Kynan: And my father heard me he said “What are you talking about?” I said…ha…and I’m breathing hard and I came out of it. Now I would have preferred not to had that experience but the good part was I realized something in that moment I said “I have authority over the enemy.” In the name of Jesus and the blood of Jesus is the key and I man I was blown away. And Sid I realized in that moment that the name of Jesus carries inside of it the sovereign power of heaven. The name of Jesus literally carries the sovereign of heaven when we use the name of Jesus authentically and we have a relationship with the One upon whom we are calling we can dispel the darkness in any area of our life and we can experience total freedom. When you use His name correctly every demon has to flee.
Sid: Well since that time you’ve really dedicated yourself to helping people be free of these strongholds in their life. Things like fear and depression and lust and sickness and poverty, addictions such as pornography, all types of sexual addictions, nightmares, all of these things have demonic roots. And most people they don’t have a clue do they? In fact I have to believe Kynan that where it says in the Bible “My people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge” that’s what the devil’s biggest desire is destroy.
Kynan: Absolutely and you know the amazing part about it Sid any where you go throughout the world people can identify with this. I was recently in England and we were ministering to people all over the world from New Zealand, from Brussels Belgium, from Africa, people from every walk of life and every ethnicity represented and you would be amazed at how many believers have battled things like anxiety attacks or nightmares. And many of them have dealt with it for years so much so that what they’ve basically done is coped with their struggles, or coped with oppression, but they haven’t experienced lasting freedom from it. In fact what the devil often does Sid is he tries to convince his victims and I use the word victim loosely but he tries to convince those he’s attacking or oppressing that number 1 that what they’re experiencing is normal. Number 2 what they are experiencing is unchangeable. And Number 3 what they are going through is something that is unbreakable and that’s the deception. And remember the power of the enemy is in deception and his deception is to make us believe that he’s more powerful than God. That he has more power than we have, but when I experienced that freedom and like you said God commissioned me. In fact the Lord spoke these words to me Sid and they were very profound. He said “Tell My church that it’s time to take a stand against the evil one because our breakthrough has been confined for too long; tell My church that it’s time to take a stand.” You know in every area of society Satan like an octopus has had his tentacles and it’s time I believe Sid for the church to rise up. You made a statement earlier about the evil abounding in the land. Well you know that’s prophecy and it tells in the Book of Timothy, it tells in the Book of Revelation. The Bible says in Revelation that the dragon has been cast to the ground with great wrath because he has but a short time. So Satan has a measure of power that he has exploited because he knows that his time is at hand. But guess what Sid the church is more powerful than the devil and we need no fear we only need to exercise the dominion and authority God’s given us.
Sid: You know what would you say to someone that is listening and saying “I agree with Pastor Kynan is talking about, but I’m flat afraid of demons and the devil. I’m fearful.” What would you say to them? Awe I have a better idea tell me about that vision you had where you saw that amazing angel.
Kynan: Yeah that’s a good one. You know I was praying one day and meditating in my room as I do often, and all of a sudden the Holy Spirit opened my eyes and it was like an open vision. And in this vision because I had been praying to experience more angelic visitations and more more experiences of that nature. And in this vision I saw a huge massive angelic being he was about 10 or more feet tall. His chest span alone was about 6’ feet tall, his legs were…the only way I could describe it was the size of tree trunks. He had on chainmail, armor, and a golden crown upon his head and a golden crown upon his head and breastplate and a golden shield and sword. I mean he was magnificent that’s the only word I could use to describe is magnificent. And I thought to myself “My goodness that’s an amazing looking angel.” I told Him I said “Wow Lord is that an arch angel or something like that?” And the Lord told me the exact opposite of what I was thinking Sid He told me actually that’s you. I said “What do you mean?” He said “From my vantage point Kynan you are a spiritual giant.” Now this lines up with scripture Sid this is not something in my imagination. The Bible tells us that we are kings and priests. And the word king is one who exercises dominion. Literally in the spiritual realm we are spiritual giants endued with divine power. But if the devil can convince a believer they are a pauper instead of a prince they will live as a pauper even though they have all of the equipment and resources of a king and this is the devils scheme. So I would say to that person “Don’t believe the lie of the devil.” In fact when I grew up in the culture I grew up in there was a lot of superstition and we were taught to fear Satan. Satan loves that you can never take authority over something or someone that you fear. So that’s the game it’s to keep us afraid but when we cast off fear and we cast off the darkness then and only then we’ll be able to take dominion in every area of our lives. There’s someone listening right now that’s battling depression Sid and I want to tell me right now in Jesus name that your breakthrough is here, it’s here all you need to do is step out and receive it. The power of the Holy Spirit inside of you is greater than any depression that you face in your life receive it now in the name of Yeshua.
Sid: Kynan I am so excited to be making available your brand new book, in fact it’s only available for a while for a season through us it’s called “Kingdom Authority Taking Dominion Over the Powers of Darkness.” A 4 CD teaching series and I’m so excited about the CD Teaching Series because one of the CD’s is being made so that if you need deliverance it’s self deliverance step by step, but then you can just take the CD and give it to a young person or an older person that needs deliverance and they can go through self deliverance. I think it’s very important Kynan that you establish the answer to this question “Half of the Christians believe that a Christian cannot have a demon, half the Christians believe a Christian can have a demon.” What do you say?
Kynan: Well that’s a very interesting statement because that has been debated for years. In fact in the early 80’s and 90’s it’s interesting that most of the people who propagated the belief that Christians could not have demons have moral failures and it’s interesting.
Sid: That is.
Kynan: It’s very interesting because the devil doesn’t want you to know that he’s there I call it the disappearing act.
Kynan: You know Satan is like Harry Houdini who in the 1900’s was a famous illusionist musician and what Harry Houdini would do is he one of his famous acts was called “The disappearing elephant or the vanishing elephant.” And he was in the Hippodrome in New York and he was basically trying to do something that had never been done before. To make an 8’ several ton elephant disappear before an audience of 5000 people. Now that’s not even possible. But what he did he put the elephant inside of this closet like structure and it was optical illusion. So that when he removed the curtain or the veil it seemed that the elephant had disappeared when in fact the elephant was there the whole time. And that’s really Satan’s game Sid is that he wants Christians to ignore the elephant in the room the elephant of oppression. Now let me say this is so important theologically a Christian when we’re born again the Holy Spirit resides in our Spirit. This is what Jesus taught us “A man must be born again.” It tells us over there in 2nd…
Sid: So that begs the question “How could a demon cohabit with the Holy Spirit in their spirit?”
Kynan: That that that’s a good question and here’s the answer. We’re a new creations viva the Holy Spirit. The Spirit lives inside of us so a Christian cannot be possessed in their spirit their spirit man is in the image of Jesus. He’s perfect, He loves God but the problem is our soul or our fleshly realm. You know in our soul in our emotions and our mind they can still be demonic activity. For example, people may argue whether Christians can be oppressed by demons or possessed by demons. Again Christians can’t be possessed by a demon because possession implies ownership, but they can be oppressed. Let me give you an example, how many Christians we know deal with insomnia? How many Christians that we know that deal with chronic illnesses and diseases? How many pastors and leaders in the church are addicted to pornography? Clearly these things are of a satanic origin we can’t argue that, but the argument is designed to distract us from the problem.
Sid: You know most cancer is caused in its origin from demons. So if a Christian believes they cannot be oppressed by a spirit of infirmity they then would not cast that demon of cancer out so the devil gets us coming and going.
Kynan: That’s right and here’s the thing we are not suggesting that Christians become obsessed with demons. I’m not asking people to rebuke demons out of their Starbucks coffee, or to cast devils out of their engine, you know just take it to the mechanic that should suffice. But what I’m saying is that there is demonic activity that we need to address and God’s given us the power to address it. And until the church eyes are open, and this is why I believe Sid that in this season prophetically what you’re seeing is that God is releasing a discernment of spirits on a level that we’ve never seen before.
Sid: And not only that I believe that in the old days they used to pray for people to be delivered and they could spend 10 hours casting demons out of people. One Christian that knows their authority it’ll be almost instant because of the anointing that’s coming on planet earth.
Kynan: I believe that 100%. I believe that God is releasing an anointing for deliverance and breakthrough that the world has never even seen before. I believe Sid that things that people have dealt with for years and for generations are going to be released they’re going to be set free of instantly when people get the revelation of who they are in Christ.
Sid: Kynan our time is slipping away…Kynan you were with us on our Israel trip when there were 250 unsaved Jewish people in the auditorium of which the majority stood up and professed faith in Jesus.
Kynan: Yes, amazing.
Sid: And you were not with me recently when 500 unsaved were in an auditorium and I would say it was actually 550 and I’d say about 525 just instantly stood up and made Jesus their Messiah and Lord….And when we come back I want you to answer the question because it is key that people understand this. Who do you think you are?
Sid: I believe when you listen to what I’ll be talking about this week and start applying it that insulation that is preventing you from receiving all of the love, all of the anointing God is going to disintegrate and you will be so filled with the love of God. I have on the telephone RT Kendall. I’m speaking to him at his home in Key Largo, Florida. RT is the former Senior Minister of Westminster Chapel. He is PhD from Oxford University. And I have in my hand his book titled and listen to this title because it’s a message in itself “Total Forgiveness” subtitle “When Everything in You Wants to Hold a Grudge Point a Finger and Remember the Pain God Wants You to Lay it All Aside.” RT how did you happen to write this book?
RT: Well Sid it came in the darkest hour that my wife and I had every gone through. It was while I was a minister of a church in London and I’d been deeply hurt and if I were to tell you the story I could win you over. I was very angry.
Sid: I find it with myself that it works the same way I could convince you of lots of people that have wronged me takes no talent at all.
RT: Exactly. Well an old friend from Romania but the name of Joseph Zung came through London because I knew that he wouldn’t tell anybody I thought I need to tell one person if only to get it off of my chest. And if I’m totally honest with you Sid the only reason I told Joseph what they did was for him to put his arm around me and say “RT you ought to be angry get it off of your chest but instead he looked at me and said “Is there anything more?” I said “No, that’s it.” And then he said “RT, you must totally forgive them until you totally forgive them you will be in chains, release them and you will be released.” Nobody had ever talked to me like that in my life faithful are the wounds of a friend. And then I said “Joseph you know I didn’t tell you everything there’s more.” RT you must in his Romanian accent “Totally forgive them until you totally forgive them…I can hear him now “You will be in chains, release them and you will be released.” And that’s what he said and it changed my life Sid.
Sid: When you say it changed your life be a little more descriptive in what way?
RT: Well if I could take the whole of 25 years of my being at Westminster Chapel in London to one moment that was the most pivotal wonderful life changing moment of those 25 years. It changed my perspective, it released the Holy Spirit, I began to get insight I’d never had before, a peace that I had years before came back. I had an anointing unlike anything I had ever had in my life. And I have since taken this message literally all over the world I’ve preached it in Israel, I’ve preached it in Australia, I’ve preached it in Hong Kong, and over the United Kingdom, and America and everywhere I go people come up to me saying “Thank you I’ve never heard anything like it.” Which is surprising when you consider it’s the ABC’s of Jesus teaching. But that’s what they say to me and it has changed lives and it has given focus of my ministry that I’ve never had before that’s just an openers.
Sid: You know what I find interesting and I’m sure that God is doing this on purpose, but you have endorsements in your book from the top Charismatics in the world and endorsements from the top Evangelical Fundamentalists in the world.
RT: And today I got a letter from Tony Campolo and he has given it the greatest endorsement I could have wanted.
Sid: I mean look at this from D. James Kennedy quote “This is a book that should be read around the world.” Let me ask you the most important question probably ask you right now and that is most Christians know that their supposed to forgive. But they might have set a pray asked for forgiveness, maybe even gone to the person and asked for forgiveness but every time they come around that person the stomach acids churn and there’s something going on that doesn’t spell I love you.
RT: Right, right.
Sid: So how can you get from the point of intellectually wanting to forgive to really supernaturally doing it?
RT: Well, let me just say that when Joseph Zung said what he did for me “You must totally forgive them.” Well I said “Joseph “I can’t,” he said “You can and you must!” And I don’t say that it’s easy Sid in fact it’s the hardest thing that I’ve ever had to do in my life because the moment I would forgive them in my heart I was in that moment saying “Lord let them off the hook, don’t let them get caught.” And then I would think “My, my word these people they’re getting away with this no one will know surely isn’t right.” And I’d get all churned.
Sid: And God of course needs you to expose them (Laughing.)
RT: Well it’s not my responsibility to expose them and no one will every know who it was, what it was you know it’s…
Sid: No, no that’s the thought that we normally have “If I don’t expose them who else will?”
RT: God then said to me one day “RT I know one or two thing about you I don’t think you’d want anybody to know how would you like if I told what I knew about you?” And I said “Stop.” The truth is we’ve all got skeletons in the closet and I just said “Lord forgive me forever thinking that they should be caught and exposed because You’ve been good to me.” And it still wasn’t easy but I began to do it and the degree to which I did it the greater the sense of God’s presence and the greater the anointing. And I’m trying to make that clear in the book that you’ve kindly referred to called “Total Forgiveness.”
Sid: You really caught my ear on that last phrase which was “The more you did this the greater the anointing” explain that.
RT: Well when I would think about what they did and that no one was going to get caught and it would get me all upset I would lose the peace and then I would forgive them in my heart and just start praying for them and praying for them to be blessed as though they hadn’t done anything. Then I would get the most wonderful peace come over me and more insight into God’s word and it just got better and better. I just came to the conclusion that peace is better than the anger of wanting them to get caught.
Sid: You know there is a depth almost a mystery of the degree of God’s love that He wants to fill us with that somehow this area of bitterness and unforgiveness is blocking this.
RT: Hm. Yes you will know the verse in Ephesians 4:30 “Grieve not the Holy Spirit of God with whom you were sealed until the day of redemption.” It comes from the Greek word that means “To get your feelings hurt to grieve.” It shows the Holy Spirit can get His feelings hurt. The Holy Spirit is a very sensitive person and the chief way we grieve Him is by bitterness. Because the very next thing that Paul said was “Let all bitterness, wrath, anger be put away from you,” and then he went on to say “Forgiving one another as God in Christ has forgiven you.” So to the degree in which we do that the degree to which we have a greater anointing believe me it works.
Sid: Now is it possible to forgive someone and not really want to be around them?
RT: Yeah yeah I have a section in my book with which goes to show that reconciliation and forgiveness are not necessarily the same thing. Take an example of a person who has molested children and you forgive him but you wouldn’t want him to teach Sunday school class with little boys anymore would you?
Sid: Of course not.
RT: Okay that’s the point just because you forgive doesn’t mean that everything can be exactly as it was before then.
Sid: Not only that in that particular instance you might also tell others.
RT: Well your right a lady in my church in London was raped by a man and they found the man and asked her to testify against him. She came to me and “I don’t want to testify against him I’ve forgiven him.” I said “But the truth is this man is a danger to society you must testify against him.” And she said “But I found out that he’s was from Iran and if I testify against him they will send him back to Iran and there he will be beheaded. I said “Well I’m sorry you must testify he’s a danger to society, there’s no bitterness in your heart you have an obligation.” And so she did, she testified against him and they sent him to Iran and she never knew any more but she forgave him but still had to testify.
Sid: I want you to say one more time what in your opinion is the proof that you have totally forgiven someone.
RT: Well there are several things Sid shall I start in?
RT: Okay the first proof that you’ve totally forgiven you will not tell what they did. Now the exception would be you may tell your pastor for therapeutic reasons you pour your heart out just like with the lady who had to testify she had to tell that. But the main reason we tell what they did Sid is because we want them to get caught or we want them to be found out.
Sid: So it depends on the motivation involved.
RT: Yeah we want people to think less of them and we also…it’s a chance to show self-pity. And excuse ourselves and make ourselves to look good and to make the other person to look bad. Well that’s wrong, total forgiveness is when you don’t tell what they did.
Sid: I’ll tell you what we’re out of time we’ll pick up here on tomorrow’s broadcast this promises to be a fascinating week but I can tell you this book will nail areas that you’ve never even thought about before. And what’s at stake? The flow of God’s Spirit fulfilling your full destiny on this earth you don’t what anything separating you from the love of God.
Sid: I don’t know a better way for you to be red hot for the Messiah than for you come to our Days of Elijah Celebration but unfortunately it’s already happened but we have the 2 hour video and 2 Jewish men that are red-hot for the Messiah myself and Dr. Michael Brown. Here I want you to hear the continuation of Dr. Michael Brown’s message which is really the sad history of what is called “Christian” anti-Semitism and the word should not go together but wait until you hear about Martin Luther.
Dr. Michael Brown: You say but Mike let’s be honest a lot of the church was hardly the church at all and I mean it was so apostate, it was so filled with dead tradition thank God for the reformation, thank God that people came around and said “The Bible alone is our guide, the Bible alone is our source of truth; in fact the name we know best is Martin Luther.” This man risked everything, this man of incredible courage forehead of steel took down a church of his day and took on its culture, his society of his day and went against it because of scriptural conviction an extraordinary man.
In 1523 he wrote a book that Jesus Christ was born a Jew. He looked around and he saw the way that Jews were treated Martin Luther said “If I’d been a Jew” and it was very insulting He said “I saw course blockheads like that running the church, bishops and popes just railing on them he said “I’d rather be a pig than become a Christian.” He said “Look we need to reach out to these Jewish people we’re just their younger brothers; I mean after all their the blood brothers of the Messiah and we’re just the younger ones that have been taken in and Jesus was born a Jew and perhaps if we reach out with sensitivity we can win some of them.”
Twenty years later 1543 Martin Luther was older he was sick he had seen Jewish writings blaspheming Jesus and various other things provoked him he wrote some very very ugly things. This man whose writings were so powerful the John and Charles Wesley were both born again listening to parts of his commentaries being read. The light went on and they got saved. This man who stood against dead tradition and said “The just shall live by faith” this man turned vehemently against the Jewish people. He wrote a little book called concerning the Jews and their lives it was only one of several that was publications that he wrote against the Jews. Then it’s so painful and striking as you can still get that book in neo-Nazi catalogs today. Adolph Hitler considered Luther a genius, one historian called Martin Luther “The John the Baptist of Adolph Hitler.” The man that prepared the way for the holocaust Martin Luther! You just can’t point out there and say it wasn’t one of us, this was the one who came to the revelation from scripture that’s something that we all hold to today.
Luther gave the princes in Germany counsel as to how to deal with the Jews. Listen to what he said, first he said “A Jew or a Jewish heart is as hard of stone and iron and cannot be moved by any means and some they are the devils children damned to hell.” Although some of them derive the crazy notion from the 11th chapter of the Epistle to the Romans that all Jews must be converted this is not so St. Paul meant something quite different.”
So what do you do with the Jews then Mr. Luther? How do we deal with them?
“Verily he says “A hopeless, wicked, venomous thing is the existence of these Jews who for 1400 years have been and still are “Our pest, torment, and misfortune.”
No Christian next to the devil has no enemy more cruel, more vale then a true Jew.”
And this is what he wrote and this is council:
- Their synagogues or churches should be set on fire. And whatever does not burn up should be covered or spread over with dirt so that no one may ever be able to see a cinder or stone of it. And this is thought to be done for the honor of God and Christianity.
- Their homes should be broken down and destroyed for they perpetrate the same things in it that they do in the synagogues. For this reason they ought to be put under one roof or a stable like gypsies.
- They should be deprived of their prayer books and Talmud’s which idolatry lies cursing and blasphemy are taught.
- Their rabbis must be forbidden under threat of death to teach any more.
And then he went on with his counsel. As you’ll find on my volume on “Answering Jewish Rejection to Jesus” most of his followers in his day did not like his teaching on this. They liked his earlier teaching out to the Jewish people. But at just the right time Satan has these seeds planted Hitler and the Nazis pull out the sermons of Krystal Nacht. Great Christian God hates the Jews and they pull out the sermons of Luther. Listen to me this is recent history; most historians date the beginning of the holocaust to what is called Krystal Nacht, the night of broken glass. What happened at that time? What was done, what was the first thing that they did they set the synagogues on fire. They broke down Jewish homes, smashed Jewish homes smashed the windows that’s why it’s called the night of broken glass. And do you know when they launched it? Do you know what day they picked in November to launch this? The Birthday of Martin Luther.
Listen to what one leading German churchman said at that time. He applauded the burning of the synagogues and the coincidence of the day. November 10th 1938 on Luther’s Birthday the synagogues are burning in Germany. He said “The German people ought to heed these words of the greatest anti-Semite of his time the warner of his people against the Jews. When one of the leading Nazi war criminals was put on trail he said “If Martin Luther was here he’d be on trial as well.”
How in the world could this happen? You know during the Holocaust there were churches that required Jews that were in their midst Jewish believers to wear the yellow arm band the Star of David identifying them as Jews and then they were turned over the authorities. See in the Middle Ages they after the crusades there was the inquisition and then one of the major rules of the inquisition was that some Jews under pressure outwardly converted but continued to live as Jews secretly and the inquisition had to weed them out. It went on for 100’s of years in different parts of the world.
Sid was just telling me about a book about the Mexican Inquisition where people are searching hunting everywhere to see there is any Jewish blood, any Jewish practice, any Jewish custom in the church at all it had to be weeded out. Where in the world does that come from?
Scholars have shown that every single act of the Nazis every act of discrimination and bringing Jews together in ghettos everything up to extermination in the concentration camps every single decree, every act, every single discriminatory thing done against the Jews had a precedent in church history they were only doing what the church had previously done just all together.
And then one of the great German Christian scholars of the day you go to any seminary, you go to any scholarly pastors library and he’s got these guys books this theological dictionary of the New Testament on his shelf. He wrote in favor of Jews being put out of Germany as second class citizens to roam and suffer. He thought that extermination was a good idea but it really wouldn’t work. Books were written in that day to prove that Jesus was not Jewish by Christian leaders.
Now today I’ve got quotes in “Our Hands are Stained With Blood” from Christian teachers some of who you will see on TBN militantly denouncing modern Israel and saying “No connection exists between modern Israel and the Israel of the Bible; we’ve got no business supporting them and when we support them we are hurting our witness to the Muslim world.” How in the world is that?
These leading Evangelicals that I mentioned to you before from leading Institutions are urging President Bush to modify his policy toward Israel. How is it? How is it that every single nation in the world establishes this is our capitol and everyone recognizes it with one exception only. Jerusalem.
How is it that there is only one city in the world right now that is the center of world controversy?
How is it that Zachariah 12 says that “In the end all nations are going to come up against Jerusalem?” Why just one city? Why is this whole battle over the Jew, why this murderous, demonic spirit? I’ll tell you it entered the church many hypocritical believers, but it even affected true believers and it affects true believers in this day, there’s a misunderstanding; it says “God is finished with Israel; God has replaced Israel.” And even though there are people who love the Jewish people who teach this it opens the door for things like the Holocaust.
And I want to tell you seriously and honestly it blesses my heart it has since I was first saved to see believers who love Israel and love the Jewish people but it’s going to have to go beyond a sentimental attachment. It’s got to go beyond “Wasn’t it so nice to hear the Hebrew quoted, oh I love that dance, I love that music because it may cost your life to save the Jew in the future.
Sid: Sobering words by Dr. Michael Brown from the Days of Elijah Celebration.
Sid: I’ll tell you what God has an advertisement, it’s not 20 years of schools of theology and proving through apologetics and arguments that Jesus is the Messiah… one miracle settles the argument. I have on the telephone Rick Taylor his wife Lori, and they’re the directors of the healing rooms of Santa Maria Valley, California. When the rooms first started and by the way, those that are just tuning in for the first time this week they literally have an epidemic of people being healed of cancer. Most of the people that come in there with cancer leave healed. When the healing rooms opened, and even now, there was an unusual smell, explain that Rick.
Rick: Well the very first day that we opened the healing rooms our team got together and we began to pray. As we begin to pray the presence of the Lord filled the room. That was not unusual to us because we were used to the presence, but what was unusual is this fragrance filled the room. It was beautiful it was like roses filled the room.
Sid: Could only 1 or 2 people smell it or many?
Rick: Every person smelled it, it was so thick. It was like Jesus saying “This is my ministry I’m the rose of Sharon and I don’t want you to forget it’s all about me.”
Sid: Now almost every week there are reports of healings and reports of people seeing angels, or actually seeing Jesus. Tell me about a couple.
Rick: Yes we’ve had quite a few people actually seeing angels as they’re getting healed. We have one team member who has the gift of seeing angels and she sees them in every room. But we’re also having reports of people actually seeing the Lord Jesus in the rooms…
Sid: Now tell me one person that was healed that saw Jesus. As a matter of fact I’m looking at my notes about a little boy who had problems with his intestines. What happened?
Rick: Yeah we had a little boy come in, the parents brought him in. Doctors could not figure out what was happening with him. He had intense extreme pain in his intestines. They ran all kinds of tests on him and they could not figure out what was happening with this boy. For an entire week they ran tests and the problem was getting worse. Well they brought him into the healing rooms, and as the team was praying for him this little boy had his eyes open, and he actually watched Jesus walk in. Now across this room was a bench and he said he saw Jesus sit on this bench, then finally Jesus stood up and walked over to this little boy and placed His hand right on this little boy’s stomach, and this little boy could physically feel Jesus’ handprint. As soon as Jesus touched him all the pain left and he was completely healed.
Sid: I understand that people see angels almost every week and many of them describe the angels they see and they’re the same. Describe the angel that a lot of people see.
Rick: Well they’re really big and normally they have a sword, they’re carrying a sword. All I can say is I don’t know; I’ve never seen an angel in there, I’ve sensed the angels and I’ve seen impressions of angels but we have people who have seen them just like I’m looking at my wife right now that clear.
Sid: Rick when people come into the healing room they hear a seminar on healing, and they sit in something you call the soaking room. What is the soaking room?
Rick: Well the soaking room is actually our waiting room. The reason we call it a soaking room is because the presence of God becomes so strong in there. We just have Christian worship music going on, but there’s this powerful presence of the Lord. Every week we have people healed just sitting there in our soaking room.
Sid: Alright tell me about the woman with lupus and a brain tumor.
Rick: Right. We had a woman come in who had 2 terminal diseases, one was a brain tumor, the other was lupus in her kidneys. Doctor gave her a year to live, they didn’t know which disease was going to take her out first. This woman came into the healing room for the first time and as she was sitting in the soaking room, just sitting there listening to the music all of a sudden she said she felt heat just like flow through her body. It was really amazing she said because all of a sudden her vision cleared up where she could not see very good because of the brain tumor. Then all of the symptoms left her body. She knew right then God healed her. Now she went ahead and got prayer in one of the rooms but she just knew, she was convinced God had touched her in the soaking room. Well she went back to her doctor at UCLA and the doctors checked her out and the brain tumor was completely gone, and the lupus in her kidneys was gone. Again Jesus Himself, the presence of God healed her.
Sid: Now as an evangelist, which I am, I get so excited about how you’re taking your people because it is a transferrable anointing. The least person in your healing room can pray for the sick and get the same results that you and your wife get when you pray for the sick. So you took a team, and you take teams to the streets, what happens?
Rick: Well you know what, here’s what’s happening in the streets. We had one of our team members was in the bank and she noticed the bank teller was very depressed looking that day. She asked the teller what was the problem and she began to tell her she was just diagnosed with breast cancer. Our team member said “Do you want to get rid of that?” This bank teller said “Yes I do!” Our team member which is a woman…
Sid: By the way take note of that, that’s a good way talk to someone. When you find out their sick ask them this question “Do you want to get rid of it?” (laughing).
Rick: Well that’s what Jesus did. So she reaches over the counter and touches this woman and curses the cancer, commands it to leave her body, just prays a quick prayer then she leaves. Two weeks later the same woman was back in the bank and this teller was just beaming, she was happy and joyful. She saw this lady who was on our team and called her over to herself and said “You’re not going to believe this, after you prayed for me I went back to my doctor and there’s no cancer in my body at all.” This happened right in the bank.
Sid: So you can imagine what happens everyone’s all eyes, customers, other tellers, the president of the bank, that’s why the miracle was so sensational. It demands the opportunity to present the gospel.
Rick: Yeah we had a couple of our team members in a Hometown Buffet here in Santa Maria. They were sitting in a booth and the booth right next to them there was a couple, an older couple. The lady has a stroke and dies right in the restaurant. The husband and other people are trying to revive her, and gosh quite a few minutes went by she’s not breathing, her heart stopped, her skin turned grey. The paramedics were on the way and finally one of our team members stands up takes authority over a spirit of death, points to her and commands life to come back into this lady and the lady coughs and begins to breath. Her heart begins to pump again and she comes back alive, right in Hometown Buffet. Now the paramedics get there and they said “What happened?” All the people standing around said “Well these 2 ladies prayed and this lady came back alive.”
Sid: (Laughing) Sounds like the book of Acts to me. Have any of your people ever gone into hospitals?
Rick: Oh yeah we got a great story of a hospital. We had this one lady who came into us and called us actually and said “You know my husband was just rushed to the hospital. He came home from work and he passed out; his eyes rolled in the back of his head. So the ambulance rushed him to the hospital where he was diagnosed with congestive heart failure, kidney failure, high blood pressure, high sugar level, plus this guy smoked 3 packs of cigarettes a day. We sent a team over to him, well let me back up a minute. The doctor told his wife “Get your household in order it doesn’t look like he’s going to make it. If he does make it by some miracle he’ll never go back to work. He’s in bad shape.” We sent a team over to the hospital, the team lays hands on this man and immediately this man rises up out of the bed completely healed. His heart is now normal, the kidneys were completely healed, the blood pressure normal, the sugar level was completely normal, and God delivered him of addiction to cigarettes.
Sid: Now in the healing room you teach on healing and then you pray, but in the streets you don’t have time to teach on healing and it’s mostly non-believers. Do you find it’s easy to get them healed?
Rick: You know what, it’s easier in the streets than it is anywhere else I believe.
Sid: I think the miracles were created for the streets for the non-believers.
Rick: Right, and the miracles prove Sid that Jesus is alive. You know in Acts 1 in verse 3 it says that after His resurrection (speaking of Jesus) He gave many convincing proofs that He was alive. Signs and wonders and miracles prove Jesus is alive, that He is who He says He is. See you can try to talk somebody into Christianity and they can debate you, but you cannot debate a miracle.
Sid: You know I have a theory Mishpochah, I believe the reason that right now this anointing is transferable and all over the world people are going to be laying on the hands on the sick in the name of Jesus and people are going to be healed. It’s time to reach the Jew, and the Bible says “The Jew requires a sign.” Why does God want us to reach the Jewish people? Because the Gentile church is incomplete without the Jew, and the Jew is incomplete without the Christian, that’s the One New Man in Ephesians 2.
Sid: Sid Roth here with Rick Renner and I know that you can’t wait for him to start teaching on end times but we were distinguishing Rick and most Christians don’t understand this the difference between the last days and the last of the last days. As I had said in the previous segment I read the book of Hebrews it starts out “In these last days” so obviously they thought when the book of Hebrews was written it was the last days. So I can see where people could get cynical because they don’t know the difference between the last days and last and the last of the last days explain that.
Rick: Well the last days is a time period which began in a time period which began on the day of Pentecost. And the Bible is so specific it even tells us it began at 9:00 in the morning when Peter stood up and said “these men are not drunken as you suppose seeing that it isn’t but the 9th hour of the day.” At that moment he said that God in the last days had started that God had poured His Spirit upon all flesh and the last days.” And that started a time segment or an era which the Bible technically calls the last day. Some people call it “The Church Age,” some people call it “The Age of Grace.” And those are called theological and theologians attempts to try to describe this time period but the Bible calls it “The last days.” And it’s lasted for 2000 years but when you come to 2nd Timothy 3 and verse 1 it says “This know also in the last days” and this is very different it’s the Greek word eschatos and the word eschatos doesn’t say the last time it says “The last days,” it’s talking about the very wrap up of this time period. The word eschatos, which is the word last, describes the farthest, farthest, farthest, farthest you can go and when you come to eschatos you can’t go any further. You’re literally butting right up against the very end of that age. It was used in nautical terms to describe the very last port. If you’ve reached that port you can go no further it’s as far as you can possible go. The word eschatos was used to describe the furthest ends of the world. And so when the Holy Spirit talks about the last days and combines the word eschatos which describes the very very very very ultimate end, and then he puts it together with the word days which is the Greek word hemera He’s not just describing an age he’s talking about the final days you can’t go any further you’ve come right to the last port this is as far as you can go.
Sid: So what makes you believe we are at that last port as far as you can go now?
Rick: Well I believe based on what we see and based on what we read in 2nd Timothy chapter 3. Your know your ministry is very much to the Jewish people but if you just read the words of 2nd Timothy chapter 3 it becomes obvious that we are living in the last days of society. And the Bible tells us very interesting to me it says “This know also” the word know ginosko de it means no this emphatically know this don’t miss this that in the last times, when you come to the very end the ultimate port when you can’t go any further the end of the age, perilous times shall come. And Sid that word perilous is the Greek word kalepos and it’s only used one other place in the whole New Testament and that is in Matthew chapter 8 verse 28 where it talks about the demoniacs of Gadara. He said, “The demoniacs of Gadara were so dangerous that they were exceedingly fierce.” That’s the same word perilous, the Greek word kalepos. It describes something that is high risk, something that’s filled with danger and in fact where those demoniacs were was so dangerous that the end of verse 28 it says “No one was able to pass by that way.” So it became something that was impassible. Now the Holy Spirit reaches and grabs that same word and describes the end of the last days as a time period that is going to be kalepos. It’s going to be filled with danger, risk, it’s going to be hard to bare and it’s impassible. We’re not going to avoid this this is something that no one’s going to be able to sidetrack. It’s very important what the Holy Spirit says.
Sid: Tell me some reasons why you believe that we’re at the last of port possible before the return of the Messiah.
Rick: Well there are different signs of course Israel is a major sign maybe you can’t avoid the very fact that Israel is one of the greatest shouting marks that we’ve entered the last of the last days. When you read Matthew chapter 24 Jesus talks about birth pains that these are just the beginning of sorrows and that the earth is going to go into a period like a woman in travail; at first the birth pains will be intermittent but the closer we come to the transition into that new age those birth pains will come closer and closer and closer and closer. And then it gives birth to a new age and Sid if you look at the dealings of God in the history of man every age as it closed, and it started a new age, they’ve all ended in pain before they gave birth to a new age. And so this is very much in line with how God has dealt throughout human history. It’s wonderful you know those teaches that you’re offering on the prophetic alert about these last days that is an amazing teaching.
Sid: Okay I would like you tell me when you believe the last of the last days started.
Rick: I believe the last of the last days started about the mid 1850’s. You know Peter says that you that “In the last days scoffers will come saying “Oh nothing’s changed everything’s been the same from the very beginning.” And about the mid-1850’s there was a great geological find just in Britain who proposed the doctrine that “Everything is same as it was from the beginning.” It’s almost a direct quote from scripture. He denied the flood, he denied creation. He didn’t actually deny them he just said they all have scientific reasons that the earth is a place that is in movement none of these have anything to do with divine intervention; nothing divine whatsoever. And he had a great influence of a young man who was on a ship who was on the way to South America and that was Charles Darwin. And Charles Darwin read those volumes and it formed the thinking of Charles Darwin and really set him in a position to believe in the evolutionary theory. It’s amazing how one person can influence another person’s life. And then at that time skeptics began to challenge the Bible and say “Where is the promise of His coming; this is just a charade, this is something people have been saying forever, they’ve been saying this for 2000 years.” Not understanding of course so they were correct it has been about 2000 years since the last days began. And they began to challenge the authority of the Bible and I believe the mid 1850’s is about the time that the last days officially triggered.
Sid: And of course it made a lot of people atheist and agnostics and (laughing) and you were telling me before we went on the air a Greek word for agnostic what does it mean?
Rick: It’s a Greek word agnosis what does it mean? It’s from the word gnosis which is knowledge but if you put an “A” on the front of it cancels it. So it’s no longer somebody who has knowledge it’s someone that’s ignorant or someone who is stupid. One day I was on an airplane and a man sitting next to me I said to him what do you believe. And he said “I’m an agnostic.” I said “Really you better think about that.” He said “Well why?” I said “Because the Greek word agnostic means one who is ignorant or one who is stupid. And he said “Are you kidding me?”
Rick: You just sat here and told me you were stupid.
Sid: I just got a great post for my Facebook (Laughing) a definition of agnostic from the Greek “Stupid.” Tell me some of the signs of the Second Coming.
Rick: Well of course I would say “The signs of the rapture” how’s that?
Rick: Because the Second Coming is really a different event.
Rick: We have the second…we have the rapture which occurs first when Jesus will come and we will meet Him in the air. And the Bible tells us that we will go to heaven and we will be with the Lord and then He will return at the end of 7 years. And it says in the book of Jude that He will come with 10,000’s and 1000’s of his saints. Enoch was the 7th from Adam and he is the one who prophesied the Second Coming so this is not new information. God has been speaking about the Second Coming the grand arrival of Jesus ever since the very beginning of time. But if you study Matthew 24 where Jesus talks about wars and rumors of wars Jesus pretty much lays it out and says “As we get closer closer to the end things are going to intensify. And then when you read 2nd Timothy chapter 3 where Paul describes how society is going to change my goodness it’s very clear to see that we’re living in an end-time society.
Sid: What does he say? How will society change?
Rick: Well he says “Well men shall be lovers or their own selves he goes through this whole list and actually gives 19 different points of things that are going to happen in society in the last days. And you know I find it interesting that right in the very middle of it he says “False accusers” which is the Greek word diaboloi, it really is the word devils. It’s almost like Paul says “Ah! The devil is in the midst.” He’s given this list the scenario of everything that’s going to take place in the last days and takes a breather himself and says “The devil is right in the middle of all of it.” And you know Sid it’s so important that we understand the scripture. Somebody might say “Why do we need to understand these verses on the last days?” Well it begins by saying “This know (this is something the Holy Spirit wants us to know). Because He wants to prepare us He didn’t say these things to scare us scaring us wouldn’t help us or anyone else. But the Holy Spirit wants us to be prepared so that we could insulate ourselves and the things which happen in society in the last days don’t happen inside our homes. We don’t have to sink with rest of the ship. I mean the rest of the ship can be sinking and we can float on the same waters that our destruction to everyone else. And that’s why I believe that it’s so very important that understand the times in which we live.
Sid: But wait a second whether someone believes in the pre-trib rapture or not we know that even though the pre-trib rapture is correct there’s going to be some very destructive times on planet earth. We’re not getting out of here before things get bad. Even in the pre-trib rapture so why do you say that people shouldn’t be fearful?
Rick: We’re anointed for this. We were not born in this generation by accident. God anointed us for these times and we have the whole armor of God, we are equipped for these times we’re chosen. Just think Sid about the things which…I mean when I think about the things that I’ve experienced in my life living in the Soviet Union I have seen history change. There are prophets who prophesied the times which we’re living in they would have loved to live in these moments. And even though these are great moments of change in the earth and there’s wars and rumors of wars we have the protection of God. And we can walk in the whole armor of God and we can walk through these times and be unaffected.
Sid: You know I love the title of the book we’re making available “You Don’t Have to Take it Anymore Because You Are Dressed to Kill.” And then you have a Roman soldier who was trained to be a professional killer but that was what the illustration Paul used. These graphics you have in full color of what each part of the armor is. I can just picture Paul in prison looking at each piece of armor and recognizing it’s supernatural. And when you are dressed to kill just as the Roman was dressed to be a killer devil watch out! That’s why you have this subtitle “You Don’t Have to take it Anymore!” Because you are dressed to kill.
Rick: You know this book these illustrations are worth the whole book, they really cause the weapons of warfare to come alive.
Sid: And you said on the last show that Kenneth Hagen read this for his students word for word, I mean because you’re such a brilliant Bible teacher. But I believe that #1 as you stated “We are anointed and chosen and called to be alive at this moment. And #2 we don’t have to get knocked down every few months by the devil there’s something better there’s a better way to live. And I can’t imagine any believer on the earth not devouring this book reading it word by word by word not skipping through it. Because this will equip you to fulfill the destiny that God’s called you to…. Rick you had two visitations from Jesus that were pretty monumental. The first visitation you had was in 1985 tell me about it.
Rick: Well in 1985 my wife and I were traveling across the United States and we were staying in a person’s home in between meetings. And we went to bed and about 2:00 in the morning I couldn’t sleep and I kept trying to go to sleep and I rebuked the devil and though “What is this disturbing me so much I can’t sleep it just.” I just could not go to sleep. So I thought “I’m getting to get up and go pray” and so I went to the backroom of that house and I began to pray and I began to pray in tongues. And I began to pray deeply in tongues I’m sure you had those experiences where you prayed so deep in the Spirit it’s like you almost became lost in another realm. Well I found myself almost lost in tongues I was praying so deeply in other tongues. And I was walking back and forth in that room with my eyes closed and got on my knees and began to worship in the spirit and when I opened my eyes I was no longer in that room I was standing in I want to call it a dark place but it wasn’t a scary place. And I understood that I was in the spirit realm, and Sid I looked and in the distance I saw a light and the light got brighter and brighter as it approached me and soon it manifested in front of me and it was Jesus who was sitting in a chair and Jesus began to talk to me about my ministry. Now He had already you know this angel had appeared to me earlier but this was the first time that I had ever seen Jesus. And Jesus reached out and took my hands and He took them one at a time and I say the he sandwiched my hands. He put one hand under my hand another hand on top of my hand and he held my hand in between my hands. And He did it to one hand and then He did it to the other hand and He did it to the other hand and He said “See today I’m giving you an anointing of love mixed with hate.” And I said “Well what is that?” He said “That is what compassion is it is love for the person and hatred for what the devil has done in their life and when love and divine hate are mixed together it creates a supernatural flow of compassion.” Then suddenly I saw myself walking through what looked like a hospital corridor and doctors and nurses dressed in very different kinds of outfits like I had never seen before. Well I know today that this is exactly the way that it looks if you’re in a Russian hospital. And as I walked through that corridor ministering to people that compassion of God and the Holy Spirit spoke to me and said “I’m going to be sending to you a people that are very wounded.” Well this was very compatible with what I had already seen when the angel had appeared to me and told me I was going to be sent to a people who had suffered. And you know Sid then the Lord said to me “See today I place before you finances on a wealth that are amassing more finances even now. And I felt almost as though that word entered into me and I felt myself filled with faith for finances and that God would supernaturally provide everything we need for what He was calling us to do. And then when it was over Jesus stood up turned around and walked right back to where that light had come from. And when I opened my eyes after praying for a few moments I found myself on my knees in that room I was no longer in the spirit realm but I was in that room. And this is one reason why I love to read John’s words in John chapter 1 verse 9 when he said “I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day. (Revelation 1:10). That word “was” is the Greek word ginomai, it describes an event which takes you off guard and by surprise, you can never anticipate it, you can never replicate it. When John says “I was in the Spirit” there’s no definite article he literally says “I came to find myself in Spirit.” You can translate it “I came to find myself in another dimension.” And that is exactly what happened to me that night when Jesus laid His hands on me, talked to me about the compassion anointing which He was giving to my life and how He was sending me to minister to a people that had been wounded.
Sid: And then you had a second visitation in 1987 from Jesus what happened then?
Rick: I was in Canada and I was in a hotel room and I woke up in the morning. When I woke up Jesus was standing at the foot of my bed just as real as if my wife had been standing at the foot of my bed. I set straight up in my bed and looked at Jesus and this was open vision my eyes were wide open I was not sleeping and Jesus was standing at the foot of my bed and just looked at me and I don’t want to say…oh the look on His face was like I have something to tell you and something to show you. And I had been very worried at that moment about our children you know our sons and I was gone so much and the demands of the ministry were requiring so much of me to be away and all of a sudden I saw my son Paul my oldest our oldest son jump into the arms of Jesus. And Jesus held him and looked at me and said “You don’t need to worry about you sons I’ve got control on your sons.” And you know Sid our sons all 3 of them work with us in the ministry, they are our partners in what we do. And then I heard the sound of an airplane engine, I mean just the roars of an engine and it’s sometimes hard to describe things which happen in the spiritual dimension, but I felt like a lift off and I could feel myself lifting off and Jesus said “See I’m sending you into the world.” And then it was over, Jesus was gone and I was sitting upright in my bed. Well years later whenever my wife and I got on the airplane with our family the first airplane that was carrying us to the Soviet Union when that plane took off down that runway and that lift off took place I had a flashback to that moment when I had heard those airplane engines. And I heard Jesus say when the airplane took off “See I’m sending you into the world.” And Sid the world has been our home ever since. We come to the United States as visitors very often shocked by what we see in the United States and the world has become our home.
Sid: Tell me why you wrote the book “Dressed to Kill?”
Rick: Ah I wrote the book “Dressed to Kill” first of all because at that particular time there was so much crazy teaching about spiritual warfare. You know if you have wrong view of the devil and a wrong view of spiritual warfare it can really mess you up. And I saw people who were doing things trying to take control of the devil which were just silly. And so I dove into the Bible to see what the Bible really has to say about the subject of spiritual warfare. And I wrote this book to be a balance and that’s why part of the subject says “A Biblical Approach to Spiritual Warfare and Armor.” You don’t have to just hope that you’re doing it right the Bible tells us very pacifically how to resist the devil and this book tells you how to do it.
Sid: Should anyone be fearful if they understand from the Bible how to be as you put it dressed to kill.
Rick: Well if you’re walking in the whole armor of God and you’re walking in the shadow of the Almighty you have no reason to be afraid. You Psalm 91 talks about “He that dwells in the secret place of the most high” if you’re dwelling in the secret place of the most high in the shadow of the Almighty you’re living in His protective care. And when you read Psalm chapter 91 the whole chapter is about the promises that belong to those who are walking closely to the Lord. And you know Sid I would say that if you’re walking with the Lord and if you’re putting on the whole armor of God and you’re renewing your mind with the word of God and doing your very best that won’t spare you from an attack you regardless. The Apostle Paul was very clear that there were places that he wanted to go and things that he want to do but Satan hindered him. But Satan was never able to knock him out of the race. Satan was never able to keep him down because he was dressed in the whole armor of God.
Sid: It’s mandatory and as a matter of fact when we come back I’d like you to explain to us how we put on the armor do we physically pretend to put it on or how does this work? But in the mean time this book is rich from Rick’s unusual gift of teaching plus him being equipped and knowing the Greek. In fact I said to him after reading this book “I want you to produce a New Testament with the understanding of Greek that you have” and he said “I’ve already started on it.” But you won’t want to put this book down, you’ll ponder over just one line of scripture when he breaks it down in the Greek language. I mean the Greek language is so much more picturesque then our English language. But more important than that we are in the last of the last days you’ve got to be equipped from a balanced Bible perspective.
Sid: I have a couple that’s red hot for the Messiah Mark & Marlene Werning I’m speaking to them at their own at the suburb of Orlando, Florida. Marlene was diagnosed with Hepatitis C now you’re a nurse so you understand this this was a what more than 20 years ago.
Sid: What did the doctors say to you at that time?
Marlene: He told me I had about 6 months to live once they diagnosed me.
Sid: Now you were a backslidden believer or were you never really a believer.
Marlene: Well no I was raised in a church but not a church that believed in the gifts so we believed that Jesus healed but then back then not today.
Sid: So when you got that report and exactly tell me the words the doctors used.
Marlene: He said “Looking at the results right now I would say at best you have about 6 months to live.
Sid: So what did you decide to do?
Marlene: I got very angry and I said “No, I have a lot more than that I haven’t done all I need to do.
Sid: Well, how could you say that the doctor just gave you a death sentence?
Marlene: Because I just didn’t believe that and there was no way that I was going to believe that my mother had taught me the importance of negative words and I didn’t know at the time I was instituting the Bible principal but I knew that that wasn’t right that it just didn’t sit well with my spirit at all and I wasn’t going to have someone tell me that.
Sid: So what happened?
Marlene: Well, I just hung on and went through a lot of pain I was in and out of the hospital for 2 years. Finally at that time it was Hepatitis Non-A Non-B it finally got a name. I was on a massive amount of pain pills and then they came up with Interferan-A. and as soon as that was released by the FDA I was on it within 2 weeks. That put me on partial remission for approximately 5 years and then I got really sick. And I guess it was about 8 to 10 years before the next treatment came out and by that time I did that and I went into full-blown liver cancer.
Sid: I guess you are the oldest living diagnosed Hepatitis C patient I understand.
Marlene: One of them yes, I think that there’s 2 or 3 of us.
Sid: Okay now what was the prognosis about the liver, I mean you didn’t die from Hepatitis and they said you were going to die what did they say about the liver?
Marlene: Two doctors pronounced death sentences over me for me to have Hepatitis. And it wasn’t until they pulled the last treatment saying I couldn’t’ handle it. I was in bed for 3 months unable to keep anything on my stomach, unable to walk and going into seizures from the pain that they said “Okay enough’s enough. And they actually stopped the medication and the next time I saw the doctor he showed me the tests and it was of liver cancer and he just sent me home to die.
Sid: Okay, that’s where Mark your husband comes on the scene I wonder if you would put him on the telephone.
Sid: Now Mark describe Marlene at her worst, what did she look like?
Mark: Marlene at her worst she was in bed like she said for like 3 months solidly 24 hours a day 7 days a week. She had lost all of her weight I would guess-to-mate that she was somewhere in the 90 pounds area if not less than that. She had…her color had completely gone, she was a very gray ash looking color there was no life in her eyes. All of her muscles had atrophy you could actually take the skin and pull it up and it would stay up it would not…there was no elasticity in her skin what’s so ever.
Sid: Could she do anything for herself.
Mark: She could do nothing it was at the point Sid I would have to pick her up and bring her into the bathroom to take a bath. She could not even pick up a brush to even comb her hair it was nothing she had no strength what-so-ever.
Sid: And what I understand the seizures were horrible.
Mark: The seizures it’s even hard to describe to this day I’ve never seen anything like it. I don’t believe that a man could other than one other woman a man couldn’t even handle that kind of pain. She would go into seizures every single night and she would have anywhere from 4 to 6 of them a night to the point to see that the pain was so severe that the pain would bring on the seizures and she would completely pass out.
Sid: At this point she really knows nothing about the Lord, how about you?
Mark: Well my background with the Lord is that I was brought up a Catholic; my grandmother was a Catholic who had raised me to a large degree. And I knew God, I knew of Jesus I would pray to Jesus but I didn’t have a personal relationship with Jesus.
Sid: Alright did either of you feel that God was going to heal her?
Mark: The only thing that I felt and I had told her this at one point that…and it didn’t make any sense at the time and we actually had a discussion about it I felt that I was sent to her. I didn’t know what that really meant I can’t say that I knew God would heal her but I knew in my spirit that something was going on. And my cry to God would be “You finally send me to a woman that we connect with that I love that we instantly connected from the get-go and knew that we would be married then why is this happening?” And I didn’t understand that.
Sid: Well, you’re watching the woman you love die before your very eyes you actually had to quit your job to take care of her full time.
Mark: Yes, at the time I had owned a real estate office and she was so sick and we couldn’t afford to bring in a full-time nurse that we had decided…no I had decided through Marlene and I that I would leave my job quit it and be with her 24 hours a day 7 days a week and like you said be her nurse.
Sid: So did the doctor have how long she could live? Have a prognosis?
Mark: Well, when it came down to before the healing it was just a day or two before this all had happened. And each time taking her to the doctors was a major ordeal because she couldn’t even sit in a car; we had to prop her up, we had to carry her to the car it was that kind of situation.
Mark: And when we would get there and try to walk down the hallway I would practically have to carry her and she was going to be getting sick at any moment so it was quite an ordeal. But as that time the doctors that were in there had basically said “Just go home and die.” We knew that there were approximately to the best of our knowledge a week left to go that’s all that she had and she said “That if she had come into real bad pain any further than what she did that we could just bring her to the hospital and they would just make her comfortable the best that they could while she passes.
Sid: And you know many times people that are dying they have like a wish and your wife had a wish she had a favorite gospel singer by the name of Vestal Goodman. And Vestal Goodman was singing near where you live or where was this?
Mark: Well, what happened again all in God’s plan here Vestal Goodman they sing with the Gaither’s and they had a concert that they were coming to Worchester Massachusetts which was the first time that they had actually been in that area the northeast area. And Marlene had always wanted to meet Vestal and through a fan basis other than that she remembered from the Grand Ole Opry and appreciated her music. And through that point I had some connections to get us there. And now bear in mind that that was a couple of months back that had all happened before Marlene had gotten really sick I made these arrangements. And at the time that this had happened Sid the Chemo and the sickness had taken Marlene’s eyes and had taken her hearing, she was just about deaf and she could just about barely see at that time.
Sid: My goodness there’s not much there, as a matter…let me talk to Marlene for a second.
Sid: Now I mean Marlene’s weighing less than 90 pounds out of curiosity Marlene did you give up on life?
Marlene: Yes I did. I did I want to die I was in so much pain I just kept asking God to take me home.
Sid: And you had set up to go to this concert but you certainly weren’t in any frame of mind even though you wanted to see this Vestal Goodman did you have second thoughts about even going I mean your body was so deteriorated you couldn’t even see?
Marlene: Yes, that day I got up and I woke up and I told Mark “I just can’t do this, I can’t do it.” And I saw the look on his face and I knew all of the work that he had been through to get us there and I said “Okay if you can help me just get ready I’ll make an attempt.” And so he bathed me and washed my hair and got me dressed and my Dad and my uncle came and picked us up and we went to ?
Sid: Well, in other words there was a point where Mark brought you to Vestal Goodman during the concert “How is that possible even?”
Marlene: He carried me, he absolutely carried me.
Sid: No, no but how could you even talk to her during a concert they don’t usually want you to talk to them during a concert?
Marlene: No they don’t he had made arrangements for us to go back stage and meet her and pretty soon her son came up and he just took one arm and Mark took the other and it was right when Vestal got off stage and he said “Come on.” And they carried me back to her and she looked at me she was walking around back stage and she turned around and she looked at me and she turned around and said “Hi honey.” I said “Hi.” And she said “How are you?” And I said “Not well.” But she said “What happened?” And I said “I was full of chemo.” And she immediately went into prayer and she attacked Lucifer and she went right to my liver. And she at that time I didn’t realize but she knew nothing about me she didn’t know who I was.
Sid: And so she didn’t know that you had liver cancer.
Marlene: No, no.
Sid: Not just liver cancer you were at the last I don’t know how you had enough chutzpa that’s the Hebrew word to even go to this concert feeling the way. How did you?
Marlene: I just felt that I needed to do it for Mark there was something inside….
Sid: For Mark you’re the one that’s dying!
Marlene: I know but he had made so many arrangements he had gone out on a limb so far to get me there to get me front row seats and to do all of this and I just said “Well, if you can get me ready I’ll do my best.” And he carried me and we went. And I really wanted to meet Vestal and I didn’t know until that morning that I was actually going to meet her. So he saved that information until the end so that gave me that extra push and it was through Mark’s obedience to kind of keep pushing me to go.
Sid: Marlene there is an outpouring going on right now of the Spirit of God for healing I tell you right now anything you want is yours anything just reach out right now in Yeshua’s name because He already paid that price for you. And I did here someone’s neck was healed. And I’m telling you this week there will be major miracles that will take place. Do not miss the next broadcast…