Sid: Sid Roth here with Rick Renner and I know that you can’t wait for him to start teaching on end times but we were distinguishing Rick and most Christians don’t understand this the difference between the last days and the last of the last days. As I had said in the previous segment I read the book of Hebrews it starts out “In these last days” so obviously they thought when the book of Hebrews was written it was the last days. So I can see where people could get cynical because they don’t know the difference between the last days and last and the last of the last days explain that.
Rick: Well the last days is a time period which began in a time period which began on the day of Pentecost. And the Bible is so specific it even tells us it began at 9:00 in the morning when Peter stood up and said “these men are not drunken as you suppose seeing that it isn’t but the 9th hour of the day.” At that moment he said that God in the last days had started that God had poured His Spirit upon all flesh and the last days.” And that started a time segment or an era which the Bible technically calls the last day. Some people call it “The Church Age,” some people call it “The Age of Grace.” And those are called theological and theologians attempts to try to describe this time period but the Bible calls it “The last days.” And it’s lasted for 2000 years but when you come to 2nd Timothy 3 and verse 1 it says “This know also in the last days” and this is very different it’s the Greek word eschatos and the word eschatos doesn’t say the last time it says “The last days,” it’s talking about the very wrap up of this time period. The word eschatos, which is the word last, describes the farthest, farthest, farthest, farthest you can go and when you come to eschatos you can’t go any further. You’re literally butting right up against the very end of that age. It was used in nautical terms to describe the very last port. If you’ve reached that port you can go no further it’s as far as you can possible go. The word eschatos was used to describe the furthest ends of the world. And so when the Holy Spirit talks about the last days and combines the word eschatos which describes the very very very very ultimate end, and then he puts it together with the word days which is the Greek word hemera He’s not just describing an age he’s talking about the final days you can’t go any further you’ve come right to the last port this is as far as you can go.
Sid: So what makes you believe we are at that last port as far as you can go now?
Rick: Well I believe based on what we see and based on what we read in 2nd Timothy chapter 3. Your know your ministry is very much to the Jewish people but if you just read the words of 2nd Timothy chapter 3 it becomes obvious that we are living in the last days of society. And the Bible tells us very interesting to me it says “This know also” the word know ginosko de it means no this emphatically know this don’t miss this that in the last times, when you come to the very end the ultimate port when you can’t go any further the end of the age, perilous times shall come. And Sid that word perilous is the Greek word kalepos and it’s only used one other place in the whole New Testament and that is in Matthew chapter 8 verse 28 where it talks about the demoniacs of Gadara. He said, “The demoniacs of Gadara were so dangerous that they were exceedingly fierce.” That’s the same word perilous, the Greek word kalepos. It describes something that is high risk, something that’s filled with danger and in fact where those demoniacs were was so dangerous that the end of verse 28 it says “No one was able to pass by that way.” So it became something that was impassible. Now the Holy Spirit reaches and grabs that same word and describes the end of the last days as a time period that is going to be kalepos. It’s going to be filled with danger, risk, it’s going to be hard to bare and it’s impassible. We’re not going to avoid this this is something that no one’s going to be able to sidetrack. It’s very important what the Holy Spirit says.
Sid: Tell me some reasons why you believe that we’re at the last of port possible before the return of the Messiah.
Rick: Well there are different signs of course Israel is a major sign maybe you can’t avoid the very fact that Israel is one of the greatest shouting marks that we’ve entered the last of the last days. When you read Matthew chapter 24 Jesus talks about birth pains that these are just the beginning of sorrows and that the earth is going to go into a period like a woman in travail; at first the birth pains will be intermittent but the closer we come to the transition into that new age those birth pains will come closer and closer and closer and closer. And then it gives birth to a new age and Sid if you look at the dealings of God in the history of man every age as it closed, and it started a new age, they’ve all ended in pain before they gave birth to a new age. And so this is very much in line with how God has dealt throughout human history. It’s wonderful you know those teaches that you’re offering on the prophetic alert about these last days that is an amazing teaching.
Sid: Okay I would like you tell me when you believe the last of the last days started.
Rick: I believe the last of the last days started about the mid 1850’s. You know Peter says that you that “In the last days scoffers will come saying “Oh nothing’s changed everything’s been the same from the very beginning.” And about the mid-1850’s there was a great geological find just in Britain who proposed the doctrine that “Everything is same as it was from the beginning.” It’s almost a direct quote from scripture. He denied the flood, he denied creation. He didn’t actually deny them he just said they all have scientific reasons that the earth is a place that is in movement none of these have anything to do with divine intervention; nothing divine whatsoever. And he had a great influence of a young man who was on a ship who was on the way to South America and that was Charles Darwin. And Charles Darwin read those volumes and it formed the thinking of Charles Darwin and really set him in a position to believe in the evolutionary theory. It’s amazing how one person can influence another person’s life. And then at that time skeptics began to challenge the Bible and say “Where is the promise of His coming; this is just a charade, this is something people have been saying forever, they’ve been saying this for 2000 years.” Not understanding of course so they were correct it has been about 2000 years since the last days began. And they began to challenge the authority of the Bible and I believe the mid 1850’s is about the time that the last days officially triggered.
Sid: And of course it made a lot of people atheist and agnostics and (laughing) and you were telling me before we went on the air a Greek word for agnostic what does it mean?
Rick: It’s a Greek word agnosis what does it mean? It’s from the word gnosis which is knowledge but if you put an “A” on the front of it cancels it. So it’s no longer somebody who has knowledge it’s someone that’s ignorant or someone who is stupid. One day I was on an airplane and a man sitting next to me I said to him what do you believe. And he said “I’m an agnostic.” I said “Really you better think about that.” He said “Well why?” I said “Because the Greek word agnostic means one who is ignorant or one who is stupid. And he said “Are you kidding me?”
Rick: You just sat here and told me you were stupid.
Sid: I just got a great post for my Facebook (Laughing) a definition of agnostic from the Greek “Stupid.” Tell me some of the signs of the Second Coming.
Rick: Well of course I would say “The signs of the rapture” how’s that?
Rick: Because the Second Coming is really a different event.
Rick: We have the second…we have the rapture which occurs first when Jesus will come and we will meet Him in the air. And the Bible tells us that we will go to heaven and we will be with the Lord and then He will return at the end of 7 years. And it says in the book of Jude that He will come with 10,000’s and 1000’s of his saints. Enoch was the 7th from Adam and he is the one who prophesied the Second Coming so this is not new information. God has been speaking about the Second Coming the grand arrival of Jesus ever since the very beginning of time. But if you study Matthew 24 where Jesus talks about wars and rumors of wars Jesus pretty much lays it out and says “As we get closer closer to the end things are going to intensify. And then when you read 2nd Timothy chapter 3 where Paul describes how society is going to change my goodness it’s very clear to see that we’re living in an end-time society.
Sid: What does he say? How will society change?
Rick: Well he says “Well men shall be lovers or their own selves he goes through this whole list and actually gives 19 different points of things that are going to happen in society in the last days. And you know I find it interesting that right in the very middle of it he says “False accusers” which is the Greek word diaboloi, it really is the word devils. It’s almost like Paul says “Ah! The devil is in the midst.” He’s given this list the scenario of everything that’s going to take place in the last days and takes a breather himself and says “The devil is right in the middle of all of it.” And you know Sid it’s so important that we understand the scripture. Somebody might say “Why do we need to understand these verses on the last days?” Well it begins by saying “This know (this is something the Holy Spirit wants us to know). Because He wants to prepare us He didn’t say these things to scare us scaring us wouldn’t help us or anyone else. But the Holy Spirit wants us to be prepared so that we could insulate ourselves and the things which happen in society in the last days don’t happen inside our homes. We don’t have to sink with rest of the ship. I mean the rest of the ship can be sinking and we can float on the same waters that our destruction to everyone else. And that’s why I believe that it’s so very important that understand the times in which we live.
Sid: But wait a second whether someone believes in the pre-trib rapture or not we know that even though the pre-trib rapture is correct there’s going to be some very destructive times on planet earth. We’re not getting out of here before things get bad. Even in the pre-trib rapture so why do you say that people shouldn’t be fearful?
Rick: We’re anointed for this. We were not born in this generation by accident. God anointed us for these times and we have the whole armor of God, we are equipped for these times we’re chosen. Just think Sid about the things which…I mean when I think about the things that I’ve experienced in my life living in the Soviet Union I have seen history change. There are prophets who prophesied the times which we’re living in they would have loved to live in these moments. And even though these are great moments of change in the earth and there’s wars and rumors of wars we have the protection of God. And we can walk in the whole armor of God and we can walk through these times and be unaffected.
Sid: You know I love the title of the book we’re making available “You Don’t Have to Take it Anymore Because You Are Dressed to Kill.” And then you have a Roman soldier who was trained to be a professional killer but that was what the illustration Paul used. These graphics you have in full color of what each part of the armor is. I can just picture Paul in prison looking at each piece of armor and recognizing it’s supernatural. And when you are dressed to kill just as the Roman was dressed to be a killer devil watch out! That’s why you have this subtitle “You Don’t Have to take it Anymore!” Because you are dressed to kill.
Rick: You know this book these illustrations are worth the whole book, they really cause the weapons of warfare to come alive.
Sid: And you said on the last show that Kenneth Hagen read this for his students word for word, I mean because you’re such a brilliant Bible teacher. But I believe that #1 as you stated “We are anointed and chosen and called to be alive at this moment. And #2 we don’t have to get knocked down every few months by the devil there’s something better there’s a better way to live. And I can’t imagine any believer on the earth not devouring this book reading it word by word by word not skipping through it. Because this will equip you to fulfill the destiny that God’s called you to…. Rick you had two visitations from Jesus that were pretty monumental. The first visitation you had was in 1985 tell me about it.
Rick: Well in 1985 my wife and I were traveling across the United States and we were staying in a person’s home in between meetings. And we went to bed and about 2:00 in the morning I couldn’t sleep and I kept trying to go to sleep and I rebuked the devil and though “What is this disturbing me so much I can’t sleep it just.” I just could not go to sleep. So I thought “I’m getting to get up and go pray” and so I went to the backroom of that house and I began to pray and I began to pray in tongues. And I began to pray deeply in tongues I’m sure you had those experiences where you prayed so deep in the Spirit it’s like you almost became lost in another realm. Well I found myself almost lost in tongues I was praying so deeply in other tongues. And I was walking back and forth in that room with my eyes closed and got on my knees and began to worship in the spirit and when I opened my eyes I was no longer in that room I was standing in I want to call it a dark place but it wasn’t a scary place. And I understood that I was in the spirit realm, and Sid I looked and in the distance I saw a light and the light got brighter and brighter as it approached me and soon it manifested in front of me and it was Jesus who was sitting in a chair and Jesus began to talk to me about my ministry. Now He had already you know this angel had appeared to me earlier but this was the first time that I had ever seen Jesus. And Jesus reached out and took my hands and He took them one at a time and I say the he sandwiched my hands. He put one hand under my hand another hand on top of my hand and he held my hand in between my hands. And He did it to one hand and then He did it to the other hand and He did it to the other hand and He said “See today I’m giving you an anointing of love mixed with hate.” And I said “Well what is that?” He said “That is what compassion is it is love for the person and hatred for what the devil has done in their life and when love and divine hate are mixed together it creates a supernatural flow of compassion.” Then suddenly I saw myself walking through what looked like a hospital corridor and doctors and nurses dressed in very different kinds of outfits like I had never seen before. Well I know today that this is exactly the way that it looks if you’re in a Russian hospital. And as I walked through that corridor ministering to people that compassion of God and the Holy Spirit spoke to me and said “I’m going to be sending to you a people that are very wounded.” Well this was very compatible with what I had already seen when the angel had appeared to me and told me I was going to be sent to a people who had suffered. And you know Sid then the Lord said to me “See today I place before you finances on a wealth that are amassing more finances even now. And I felt almost as though that word entered into me and I felt myself filled with faith for finances and that God would supernaturally provide everything we need for what He was calling us to do. And then when it was over Jesus stood up turned around and walked right back to where that light had come from. And when I opened my eyes after praying for a few moments I found myself on my knees in that room I was no longer in the spirit realm but I was in that room. And this is one reason why I love to read John’s words in John chapter 1 verse 9 when he said “I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day. (Revelation 1:10). That word “was” is the Greek word ginomai, it describes an event which takes you off guard and by surprise, you can never anticipate it, you can never replicate it. When John says “I was in the Spirit” there’s no definite article he literally says “I came to find myself in Spirit.” You can translate it “I came to find myself in another dimension.” And that is exactly what happened to me that night when Jesus laid His hands on me, talked to me about the compassion anointing which He was giving to my life and how He was sending me to minister to a people that had been wounded.
Sid: And then you had a second visitation in 1987 from Jesus what happened then?
Rick: I was in Canada and I was in a hotel room and I woke up in the morning. When I woke up Jesus was standing at the foot of my bed just as real as if my wife had been standing at the foot of my bed. I set straight up in my bed and looked at Jesus and this was open vision my eyes were wide open I was not sleeping and Jesus was standing at the foot of my bed and just looked at me and I don’t want to say…oh the look on His face was like I have something to tell you and something to show you. And I had been very worried at that moment about our children you know our sons and I was gone so much and the demands of the ministry were requiring so much of me to be away and all of a sudden I saw my son Paul my oldest our oldest son jump into the arms of Jesus. And Jesus held him and looked at me and said “You don’t need to worry about you sons I’ve got control on your sons.” And you know Sid our sons all 3 of them work with us in the ministry, they are our partners in what we do. And then I heard the sound of an airplane engine, I mean just the roars of an engine and it’s sometimes hard to describe things which happen in the spiritual dimension, but I felt like a lift off and I could feel myself lifting off and Jesus said “See I’m sending you into the world.” And then it was over, Jesus was gone and I was sitting upright in my bed. Well years later whenever my wife and I got on the airplane with our family the first airplane that was carrying us to the Soviet Union when that plane took off down that runway and that lift off took place I had a flashback to that moment when I had heard those airplane engines. And I heard Jesus say when the airplane took off “See I’m sending you into the world.” And Sid the world has been our home ever since. We come to the United States as visitors very often shocked by what we see in the United States and the world has become our home.
Sid: Tell me why you wrote the book “Dressed to Kill?”
Rick: Ah I wrote the book “Dressed to Kill” first of all because at that particular time there was so much crazy teaching about spiritual warfare. You know if you have wrong view of the devil and a wrong view of spiritual warfare it can really mess you up. And I saw people who were doing things trying to take control of the devil which were just silly. And so I dove into the Bible to see what the Bible really has to say about the subject of spiritual warfare. And I wrote this book to be a balance and that’s why part of the subject says “A Biblical Approach to Spiritual Warfare and Armor.” You don’t have to just hope that you’re doing it right the Bible tells us very pacifically how to resist the devil and this book tells you how to do it.
Sid: Should anyone be fearful if they understand from the Bible how to be as you put it dressed to kill.
Rick: Well if you’re walking in the whole armor of God and you’re walking in the shadow of the Almighty you have no reason to be afraid. You Psalm 91 talks about “He that dwells in the secret place of the most high” if you’re dwelling in the secret place of the most high in the shadow of the Almighty you’re living in His protective care. And when you read Psalm chapter 91 the whole chapter is about the promises that belong to those who are walking closely to the Lord. And you know Sid I would say that if you’re walking with the Lord and if you’re putting on the whole armor of God and you’re renewing your mind with the word of God and doing your very best that won’t spare you from an attack you regardless. The Apostle Paul was very clear that there were places that he wanted to go and things that he want to do but Satan hindered him. But Satan was never able to knock him out of the race. Satan was never able to keep him down because he was dressed in the whole armor of God.
Sid: It’s mandatory and as a matter of fact when we come back I’d like you to explain to us how we put on the armor do we physically pretend to put it on or how does this work? But in the mean time this book is rich from Rick’s unusual gift of teaching plus him being equipped and knowing the Greek. In fact I said to him after reading this book “I want you to produce a New Testament with the understanding of Greek that you have” and he said “I’ve already started on it.” But you won’t want to put this book down, you’ll ponder over just one line of scripture when he breaks it down in the Greek language. I mean the Greek language is so much more picturesque then our English language. But more important than that we are in the last of the last days you’ve got to be equipped from a balanced Bible perspective.
Sid: I have a couple that’s red hot for the Messiah Mark & Marlene Werning I’m speaking to them at their own at the suburb of Orlando, Florida. Marlene was diagnosed with Hepatitis C now you’re a nurse so you understand this this was a what more than 20 years ago.
Sid: What did the doctors say to you at that time?
Marlene: He told me I had about 6 months to live once they diagnosed me.
Sid: Now you were a backslidden believer or were you never really a believer.
Marlene: Well no I was raised in a church but not a church that believed in the gifts so we believed that Jesus healed but then back then not today.
Sid: So when you got that report and exactly tell me the words the doctors used.
Marlene: He said “Looking at the results right now I would say at best you have about 6 months to live.
Sid: So what did you decide to do?
Marlene: I got very angry and I said “No, I have a lot more than that I haven’t done all I need to do.
Sid: Well, how could you say that the doctor just gave you a death sentence?
Marlene: Because I just didn’t believe that and there was no way that I was going to believe that my mother had taught me the importance of negative words and I didn’t know at the time I was instituting the Bible principal but I knew that that wasn’t right that it just didn’t sit well with my spirit at all and I wasn’t going to have someone tell me that.
Sid: So what happened?
Marlene: Well, I just hung on and went through a lot of pain I was in and out of the hospital for 2 years. Finally at that time it was Hepatitis Non-A Non-B it finally got a name. I was on a massive amount of pain pills and then they came up with Interferan-A. and as soon as that was released by the FDA I was on it within 2 weeks. That put me on partial remission for approximately 5 years and then I got really sick. And I guess it was about 8 to 10 years before the next treatment came out and by that time I did that and I went into full-blown liver cancer.
Sid: I guess you are the oldest living diagnosed Hepatitis C patient I understand.
Marlene: One of them yes, I think that there’s 2 or 3 of us.
Sid: Okay now what was the prognosis about the liver, I mean you didn’t die from Hepatitis and they said you were going to die what did they say about the liver?
Marlene: Two doctors pronounced death sentences over me for me to have Hepatitis. And it wasn’t until they pulled the last treatment saying I couldn’t’ handle it. I was in bed for 3 months unable to keep anything on my stomach, unable to walk and going into seizures from the pain that they said “Okay enough’s enough. And they actually stopped the medication and the next time I saw the doctor he showed me the tests and it was of liver cancer and he just sent me home to die.
Sid: Okay, that’s where Mark your husband comes on the scene I wonder if you would put him on the telephone.
Sid: Now Mark describe Marlene at her worst, what did she look like?
Mark: Marlene at her worst she was in bed like she said for like 3 months solidly 24 hours a day 7 days a week. She had lost all of her weight I would guess-to-mate that she was somewhere in the 90 pounds area if not less than that. She had…her color had completely gone, she was a very gray ash looking color there was no life in her eyes. All of her muscles had atrophy you could actually take the skin and pull it up and it would stay up it would not…there was no elasticity in her skin what’s so ever.
Sid: Could she do anything for herself.
Mark: She could do nothing it was at the point Sid I would have to pick her up and bring her into the bathroom to take a bath. She could not even pick up a brush to even comb her hair it was nothing she had no strength what-so-ever.
Sid: And what I understand the seizures were horrible.
Mark: The seizures it’s even hard to describe to this day I’ve never seen anything like it. I don’t believe that a man could other than one other woman a man couldn’t even handle that kind of pain. She would go into seizures every single night and she would have anywhere from 4 to 6 of them a night to the point to see that the pain was so severe that the pain would bring on the seizures and she would completely pass out.
Sid: At this point she really knows nothing about the Lord, how about you?
Mark: Well my background with the Lord is that I was brought up a Catholic; my grandmother was a Catholic who had raised me to a large degree. And I knew God, I knew of Jesus I would pray to Jesus but I didn’t have a personal relationship with Jesus.
Sid: Alright did either of you feel that God was going to heal her?
Mark: The only thing that I felt and I had told her this at one point that…and it didn’t make any sense at the time and we actually had a discussion about it I felt that I was sent to her. I didn’t know what that really meant I can’t say that I knew God would heal her but I knew in my spirit that something was going on. And my cry to God would be “You finally send me to a woman that we connect with that I love that we instantly connected from the get-go and knew that we would be married then why is this happening?” And I didn’t understand that.
Sid: Well, you’re watching the woman you love die before your very eyes you actually had to quit your job to take care of her full time.
Mark: Yes, at the time I had owned a real estate office and she was so sick and we couldn’t afford to bring in a full-time nurse that we had decided…no I had decided through Marlene and I that I would leave my job quit it and be with her 24 hours a day 7 days a week and like you said be her nurse.
Sid: So did the doctor have how long she could live? Have a prognosis?
Mark: Well, when it came down to before the healing it was just a day or two before this all had happened. And each time taking her to the doctors was a major ordeal because she couldn’t even sit in a car; we had to prop her up, we had to carry her to the car it was that kind of situation.
Mark: And when we would get there and try to walk down the hallway I would practically have to carry her and she was going to be getting sick at any moment so it was quite an ordeal. But as that time the doctors that were in there had basically said “Just go home and die.” We knew that there were approximately to the best of our knowledge a week left to go that’s all that she had and she said “That if she had come into real bad pain any further than what she did that we could just bring her to the hospital and they would just make her comfortable the best that they could while she passes.
Sid: And you know many times people that are dying they have like a wish and your wife had a wish she had a favorite gospel singer by the name of Vestal Goodman. And Vestal Goodman was singing near where you live or where was this?
Mark: Well, what happened again all in God’s plan here Vestal Goodman they sing with the Gaither’s and they had a concert that they were coming to Worchester Massachusetts which was the first time that they had actually been in that area the northeast area. And Marlene had always wanted to meet Vestal and through a fan basis other than that she remembered from the Grand Ole Opry and appreciated her music. And through that point I had some connections to get us there. And now bear in mind that that was a couple of months back that had all happened before Marlene had gotten really sick I made these arrangements. And at the time that this had happened Sid the Chemo and the sickness had taken Marlene’s eyes and had taken her hearing, she was just about deaf and she could just about barely see at that time.
Sid: My goodness there’s not much there, as a matter…let me talk to Marlene for a second.
Sid: Now I mean Marlene’s weighing less than 90 pounds out of curiosity Marlene did you give up on life?
Marlene: Yes I did. I did I want to die I was in so much pain I just kept asking God to take me home.
Sid: And you had set up to go to this concert but you certainly weren’t in any frame of mind even though you wanted to see this Vestal Goodman did you have second thoughts about even going I mean your body was so deteriorated you couldn’t even see?
Marlene: Yes, that day I got up and I woke up and I told Mark “I just can’t do this, I can’t do it.” And I saw the look on his face and I knew all of the work that he had been through to get us there and I said “Okay if you can help me just get ready I’ll make an attempt.” And so he bathed me and washed my hair and got me dressed and my Dad and my uncle came and picked us up and we went to ?
Sid: Well, in other words there was a point where Mark brought you to Vestal Goodman during the concert “How is that possible even?”
Marlene: He carried me, he absolutely carried me.
Sid: No, no but how could you even talk to her during a concert they don’t usually want you to talk to them during a concert?
Marlene: No they don’t he had made arrangements for us to go back stage and meet her and pretty soon her son came up and he just took one arm and Mark took the other and it was right when Vestal got off stage and he said “Come on.” And they carried me back to her and she looked at me she was walking around back stage and she turned around and she looked at me and she turned around and said “Hi honey.” I said “Hi.” And she said “How are you?” And I said “Not well.” But she said “What happened?” And I said “I was full of chemo.” And she immediately went into prayer and she attacked Lucifer and she went right to my liver. And she at that time I didn’t realize but she knew nothing about me she didn’t know who I was.
Sid: And so she didn’t know that you had liver cancer.
Marlene: No, no.
Sid: Not just liver cancer you were at the last I don’t know how you had enough chutzpa that’s the Hebrew word to even go to this concert feeling the way. How did you?
Marlene: I just felt that I needed to do it for Mark there was something inside….
Sid: For Mark you’re the one that’s dying!
Marlene: I know but he had made so many arrangements he had gone out on a limb so far to get me there to get me front row seats and to do all of this and I just said “Well, if you can get me ready I’ll do my best.” And he carried me and we went. And I really wanted to meet Vestal and I didn’t know until that morning that I was actually going to meet her. So he saved that information until the end so that gave me that extra push and it was through Mark’s obedience to kind of keep pushing me to go.
Sid: Marlene there is an outpouring going on right now of the Spirit of God for healing I tell you right now anything you want is yours anything just reach out right now in Yeshua’s name because He already paid that price for you. And I did here someone’s neck was healed. And I’m telling you this week there will be major miracles that will take place. Do not miss the next broadcast…
Sid: My guest by way of telephone I’m speaking to him from his home in Palisade, Colorado Michael Champagne. Michael was raised in a good Baptist church, but he got into mythology which then branched him into astral projection and séances. Actually as you put it you were a missionary in the streets to recruit as many young people into Satanism. How successful were you?
Michael: Pretty successful I started a not a coven but I started an organization called “The Black Rose Society” while I was in New Orleans or California which was every type of occultism that was imaginable it was… that was our byline was you know “If you have a special ability or a power or an in inkling if you have one come we’ll accept you no matter how weird you might be.” And you know we had in New Orleans we had about 100 people and growing and in California we had about 75 and growing.
Sid: Now were Christians your main target once… I mean did you put hexes on Christians and did you go after Christians and try to destroy their faith?
Michael: Yeah but Christians were kind of like like a 7 point buck in the hunting world. It was like the prize it wasn’t necessarily the target it was like if you got one you did good.
Sid: What was the target?
Michael: The target was young teenagers from about 14 to 17 that they came from about usually from rejected homes and they’re usually manic-depressive and they had all kinds of problems. And we would just take them and we’d treat them just like a family would we would take care of them if they were sick we would nurture them back to health. And in the mean time we were…
Sid: Where did you get the money?
Sid: Where did you get the money to do all of this?
Michael: Oh panhandling stealing.
Sid: Why didn’t Satan just give you the money?
Michael: That’s how Satan told us to get the money.
Sid: Huh okay you got involved by going to a ministry called “The Dream Center” that has a lot of young people in Los Angeles.
Michael: Hmm hm.
Sid: And you were staying there and the leaders knew that you had Tarot Cards on you why did you have them on you?
Michael: Because I always had them on me.
Michael: Because they were kind of like I drew… that was my bait I had Tarot Cards and these little kids would come and sit next to me and I’d give them a free reading. And they’re like “This stuff is really cool.” Then I would tell them to meet me at a certain place at a certain time and I’d tell you more.
Sid: Okay the leader said for you to get rid of these cards what did you do?
Michael: Well without a hesitation for some reason I decided okay.
Michael: I don’t know.
Michael: So we went to the front yard of this discipleship home and we decided to burn them. So we doused them with lighter fluid and we light them on fire and they wouldn’t burn. And so we had to take them like 2 at a time and burn them and when they burned the flames that were coming off of the cards were like black and purple and it was like demonic hissing coming from the side of the card.
Sid: Now did anyone else see this and see this besides you?
Michael: My leader saw the flames but didn’t hear the hissing.
Sid: Now you told me that you could actually hear screams coming out of the flames.
Sid: I mean were they like they were suffering was it that kind of scream.
Michael: No it was more like angry.
Sid: Huh. So when all of this is going on you know what’s going on in the spirit world.
Sid: You must have been in the middle of a war one side God one side the devil pulling at both sides what did you do?
Michael: It was pretty spectacular I just looked down at the cards with a full realization for the first time in years I just stomped on them; I dropped on my knees and at that moment I was… I gave my services to God. I said “Here I am use me whatever I don’t have a life anymore I’ve already killed it.” And the sky split open where I was sitting at and nobody… everybody felt it because there was like 5 people out there with me but nobody saw it but the whole yard filled up with angels.
Sid: When you were in Satanism had you seen angels?
Michael: I’d seen them but it was only like glances. See when I was in Satanism I could see God’s servants but they were only like shadows almost like a mist. The only thing I saw clearly were demonic things. But here for the first time was like probably 20 – 30 you know 10 foot angels surrounding me with swords like protecting me.
Sid: Well I was just going to ask you were you fearful but with all of those around you how could you be fearful. So what happened next?
Michael: I stood up and that was like the end of my Satanism that was it you know just. Like Paul to Saul in one fair swoop God took all the evil and brushed it away.
Sid: Out of curiosity you came from a Baptist background did you know anything about being baptized in the Holy Spirit speaking in tongues?
Michael: That’s a great question because after the fact I figured okay I’ll just…I know that there’s a God and I know that I’m supposed to serve Him I’ll just go content on living a Baptist lifestyle. I didn’t want to have anything to do with spirit do you understand? I just came from an awful experience in retrospect.
Sid: Oh it was almost like the devil was getting you coming and going when you were in Satanism. Then when you became a Christian you were afraid of the authentic because you had seen the counterfeit.
Michael: Right. And I didn’t want anything to do with it and then one day I was… because I decided to stay at the discipleship home and learn more. You know I saw 30 guys in a small house that were happy content and singing praises to God and I’m thinking “This is not like real.” I went there and one day some kids from ORU, Oral Roberts University, were there and we were all sitting in the front yard. And like for 3 days they would be liked praying in tongues and I could feel fire boiling up inside of me but I didn’t know what was going on so I didn’t open my mouth. And one time I told Todd I said “Todd can you help me I don’t know what’s going on?” And Todd just looked at me and he said “You’re just resisting the Holy Spirit.” And the last day right before the kids left my big prophet friend of mine laid his hands on me and he said “God wants you to receive the Holy Spirit.” And distinctively I said “Okay” and I got baptized in the Holy Spirit and a felt like a lightning bolt shot through my body and did a de-cleaning. I fell over and I spoke in tongues for the first time and I couldn’t stop speaking in tongues for like 3 hours it was all I could do.
Sid: Now you know what it’s like to be filled with the demonic and you know what it is to be filled with the Holy Spirit as best you can what’s the difference?
Michael: Ah being filled with the demonic is like it’s a sickening feeling almost like you don’t eat enough and that’s what it feels like you get a hollow pit in your stomach; you still have a power radiating out of you.
Sid: But you went into the demonic for the power.
Michael: Right I did and you had the power but it almost felt like you were in a famine like he was taking more out of you then he was just putting in you.
Sid: And how about being filled with the Holy Spirit?
Michael: Well that was the greatest experience of my life it was the biggest high I’ve ever had; it was like I got shot with like a million volts of like pure energy. I didn’t get tired, I didn’t need to eat if the Spirit was on me really strong. I could… I still had the power I felt the power but it was pure, you know what I mean. It wasn’t tainted I felt satisfied instead of I was like getting sucked dry.
Sid: I understand what you’re saying. Now you saw lots of healings in the demonic do you see healings in being filled with the Holy Spirit of God are they better what’s the difference?
Michael: I’m I do, as a matter of fact I went through a healing about 3 years ago just to fine tune everything, but you know when you’re working the supernatural you always feel like hanging on-ers things that stick to you off of other people so I got a deep cleaning from that. I always suggest this to new Christians, if you ever have a gift and you know it’s from God, to make it the most pure it can be just give it back to Him and tell Him to purify it and He’ll give it back to you. So that’s what I did and when I would lay hands on people that was one of the gifts that I had along with word of wisdom, and word of knowledge, and discerning of spirits was the ability to heal. So when I heal people… the first time I healed somebody I didn’t even know it I just laid hands on somebody and then they came back to me. I wasn’t even like even laying hands on him or praying for him, I was patting this guy on the back and he came back like 10 minutes later cause I was at a church and he said “I’m just going to tell you this I could barely move my back for like 6 months because of a car wreck you touched me and I’m completely healed. And the only thing I knew how to do was… praise God so I didn’t try to do anything but the difference was of the two types of healing was when I healed somebody through God’s power there was you know there was no taking back I wasn’t like taking something so they could be hooked I was giving them something. And with demonic power I was healing them just so they would come back to me not to God.
Sid: So one was almost power for yourself the other was power for getting people saved and turning them on to God.
Sid: Now you move in discerning of spirits can you see evil spirits on people?
Michael: I can’t see them physically I’ll feel them but yeah it depends on what’s going on around me because you know God has… God doesn’t like people to get stuck in a formula this is what I discovered over years of…
Sid: Michael we’ll pick up right here on tomorrow broadcast.
Sid: My guest is red hot for the Messiah my producer came running in one day and said “Sid I just heard a CD and this young woman she’s a Jewish believer and she sounds like Barbara Streisand you got to listen to it.” So I have Michelle Gold on the telephone and Michelle I have to ask you what the Rabbis always ask me are both of your parents Jewish?
Michelle: Yes they are born and raised in Brooklyn I’m a little Jewish girl from Brooklyn darling. (Laughing)
Sid: Well that’s too bad if I was a Rabbi and but it’s great because both of my parents are Jewish and I get the Rabbis upset when I tell them that. But from Brooklyn you know Brooklyn’s one of my favorite places I love the Brooklyn accent. And tell me about your religious education you’re both Jewish your both Jewish your both parents are Jewish were you religious at all what did they believe about God.
Michelle: Absolutely, my dad is a Russian decent and my mom her ancestors are from Poland and they came together. She was a lot less religious then he was lets say he was more Shomer Shabbos, which I guess means they lit the candles and they celebrated Shabbat together that Saturday Sabbath time when they’d come together and acknowledge that God created the universe. And you know my mom wasn’t interested in all of that stuff as much but she and him fell in love and I think that they even met at a roller rink somewhere actually and yeah gave birth to me in little old Brooklyn. They believed that God existed but that maybe He was very far away and my dad had some problems with God the Father because of course he had heard stories of the holocaust and just couldn’t put his arms around the fact that you know these people suffered and died and where was God. He didn’t understand the loving side of God and the sovereignty and how evil happens and that’s man’s evil. But he struggled with that so I really had a very secular background however my parents still put me in Yeshiva, that’s full time Hebrew school for a child, and Hebrew school I graduated Hebrew school. And because I was so empty inside my mother used to tell me that when I died I’d go to dust so because I was so empty inside I started to feel really down in my spirit even at 8 years old I cannot believe that an 8 year old has a capacity to even get depressed, but they do! And it was amazing how music was god for us Sid, my mother sings like Ethel Merman, my father like Tony Bennett, my brother sings like the lead singer of Metallica actually. And we used to sit around the piano and sing all of these great songs.
Sid: But your mother had some serious problems we call it today bipolar it used to be called manic-depressive, how did that play out in your life?
Michelle: You know my mother had struggled with manic-depression bipolar disease, chemical imbalance for those that maybe you don’t know it you probably definitely know this but she couldn’t control her behavior so when she was angry she would actually she claimed later on that she would see red. And she would get upset about anything even if you left her out of a conversation, if I took her to the…if she took me to Toys-R-Us and I couldn’t decide on a toy she would see red and her hands would start to shake in front of her almost like a monster.
Sid: How do you handle this as a young child, what affect did it have on you?
Michelle: It was traumatic it was traumatic I think that it was most traumatic is that she would kind of wrestle me to the ground in her anger, but then she would hug me at the same moment and say “I’m so sorry, I’m so sorry” because she would kind of come to consciousness and she was madly in love with me. I was like everything to her and she never wanted to hurt me so it was traumatic and so it was confusing. I tried to be god, I tried to keep her together and keep her calm. My friends would come over and she would be angry and maybe throw something and I would have to kind of protect my friends and kind of apologize for her. She only had like one or two really great friends that really understood the illness that stuck by her.
Sid: Now when you were 8 you actually… life was so difficult for this 8 year old that you attempted suicide and you actually heard God speak tell me about that.
Michelle: Yeah between hearing my parents fight because I think that it was touch for my dad he was an overworked school teacher one of the best but he was definitely overworked. And my brother was next store with the heavy metal music kind of getting high and 8 years old I just the tension of my parents arguing and I saw… I had a heart like no other 8 year old I could feel the pain that God would feel in the world I guess. And I just looked out the window and I said “Whoever You are wherever You are I just want to die, I just want to die!”
Sid: And did He respond?
Michelle: Yes, it was so funny I was in my bedroom I had this beautiful green canopy with curtains and a beautiful mirror and pictures of Madonna on the wall. I just thought if I could just become famous maybe I’d be happy one day and all of this would go away. But I looked in the mirror and I kind of looked around the room for the voice of God and He spoke to my heart I knew that it couldn’t have been my words because an 8 year old doesn’t think thought like this. And the thoughts that came to my head were “Michelle Gold you cannot die I have a plan and a purpose for your life you’re going to write songs and you’re going to sing and those songs are going to bring healing to the world!”
Sid: You know it almost like the devil knows there’s a future for certain people and he tries to sabotage them before they get started. In addition to the fighting between your parents and your mothers emotional mental type problems and you being verbally abused you were physically abused, sexually abused as a young child. How did you survive Michelle?
Michelle: I sought happiness through relationships with boys and you know degraded my body, degraded myself and seemed to find pornography and different things around in my friendships and in people’s houses. It’s funny it wasn’t even where my heart was at I kind of lived a double life, my teachers at school they treated me like an angel and they saw the angel in me but I had this double life because I was so empty and confused and traumatized and I was looking for love and I was looking for love and I was looking for power and I was looking for healing and I couldn’t find it.
Sid: And so at 15 you’re going to do some singing and you go to a studio that’s run by your cousin and you go for a walk on the beach with him but you got something you never expected?
Michelle: Yeah but first I went to Israel at 15 to find to find God and instead I just found emptiness and I found some nice dinner conversation that’s about it. In fact I was even date raped while I was in Israel can you believe that it could happen anywhere but…
Sid: How old were you?
Michelle: I was 15 years old actually.
Sid: Oh that is hard to believe.
Michelle: You know it was just upsetting.
Sid: You’re a baby. (Laughing)
Michelle: I know God is merciful because I was not conscious for most of that I was actually drugged someone had drugged me and He was merciful I tell you that much without going into too much detail. But I’ll tell you that I’ve come out way stronger than I’d ever been in my whole life. And man I sometimes felt like I’d punch the devil in the nose it’s like you know it’s because of what I’d been through. And here I was 15 years old and now I went to Florida, Miami Beach thinking I’ll just become the next Madonna and that will handle it all and just be powerful and power will fulfill that need in me you know.
Sid: But tell me what happened when you’re walking on the beach with your cousin?
Michelle: Yeah, it was so funny he looked like Yeshua. I mean the pictures I had seen on the wall of a Jew I always saw pictures of you know Jesus being portrayed with long brown hair and the blue… it’s funny even my cousins Jewish and he looked just like that picture and I didn’t know he was saved. He had a walk with Yeshua he believed in Him as his Messiah. My uncle told him about Yeshua; my uncle was disowned by the entire family we were not allowed to talk to Uncle Ed. It was just so interesting and Steve and I took a break and we took a walk along Miami Beach and he goes you know Michelle did you know Jesus is a Jewish Messiah and all the first believers were Jewish and Matthew, Mark and probably Luke and John were Jewish and it’s the most Jewish thing you could do is believe in your Messiah that you become completed forever. And He could be the Father that you always want and everything you always need. And yeah why don’t us Jews believe in Him I believe in Him right now and receive Him right now?
Sid: How could you do it so quickly? How did you do that Michelle?
Michelle: (Laughing) You know I believe that seeds were planted in my life from when I was very young I can look back. I can remember a vision of Yeshua in the sky in the clouds laying in the back seat of my car going to a trip to I believe it was some Jewish camp Upstate New York. And I remember it was like at about 8 or 10 years old looking up and seeing a vision of Yeshua like in the sky! I know it sounds insane but I saw Him seating on a swing and just like a beautiful Abba, a beautiful Daddy, just waiting for me. And I also had a girl at camp that used to sit with me on a rock outside of camp underneath the beautiful trees and tell me “You know that Jesus is the Messiah and He’s coming back one day.” She freaked me out with all of these stories about the rapture I had no idea about what she was talking about.
Sid: (Laughing) So Michelle you immediately its right and you accept Yeshua you go home you keep it hidden for a little while but then you tell your parents. What happened?
Michelle: (Laughing) Oh my goodness. My parents they actually tried to disown me when they found out that I believed in Yeshua. I was pretty shocked because my mom is extremely liberal and always told me they would be behind me no matter what. And I think that she was kinds wanting to be cool with it because she saw the change in me but my dad immediately disowned me. I was able to live in my house but there was no connection any longer with my dad and I was completely and emotionally cut off. I had family members calling telling me that they’d grieve for me as if I were dead. And my dad sent me to a programmer with a Lubavitch Hasidim in Brooklyn to see if he could change my mind.
Sid: Okay was he successful? What did he say to you? You know these deprogrammers are some professionals they spend their whole life studying how to prove Jesus is not the Messiah just in case a Michelle comes along. So what did they say to you I’m curious?
Michelle: So my Dad sent me to a deprogrammer thinking that maybe I was brain washed and the deprogrammer was a rabbi in the Lubavitch community and actually it didn’t… part of it didn’t work because it was a rabbi that first tried to set me up with a good looking guy and I ended up bringing the guy to Yeshua actually and get him to agree. But then the rabbi sat me in his room and he’s like Michelle if Yeshua is the Messiah don’t you think I would know I’m a Rabbi I’ve got all of these books here. And I said “No, I don’t think you’d know because these books are not going to tell you to read the New Covenant you need to.
Sid: You know this must be a cop out by these Rabbis because my Rabbi said “Sid you see all of these books behind me when you’ve read them all then you can tell me Jesus is the Messiah.” So I had the same thing. Okay the rabbi got nowhere with you because of the Lubavitch movement and they try to win Jewish people by doing nice things. And a woman from that organization she was beautiful she did have an effect on you what happened?
Michelle: Absolutely at that point I met this beautiful woman at the Lubavitch group and as you know they’re very very charismatic people and she talked me out of my faith somehow by telling me that “If Yeshua was really the Messiah that peace would have come to the entire earth.” Well at that point I wasn’t grounded in my faith to know that well Yeshua had to come to atone for our sins first. So I believed unfortunately that was right around Yom Kippur. So I spent that day repenting for maybe believing in the wrong thing and I just wanted to please God and Yeshua was the Messiah I wanted to know but I was so confused and I threw the bread into the water as a symbol of leaving my sins before the Lord.
Sid: And you tried the Bahai faith and you’re still searching, but then you win the Lena Horn Scholarship and you go to the presidios Manhattan School of Music you’re 17 you move out of your home. You start relationships and you forgot everything about Jesus, about knowing God, anything about God you’re focusing on your singing. As a matter of fact I want them to hear a little bit about your singing. Tell me what the song “Shalom” is about.
Michelle: Well when I wrote “Shalom” it was right after 9/11 actually when the Twin Towers fell in New York City. I was living in Nashville, Tennessee soon after that and had been missing the fire of God that I had once had so strongly because it was so peaceful there in Nashville. And I cried out to the Lord “Lord bring my passion back let not disaster have to happen again before I care enough to pray and intercede for Your people You Jewish people.” And that song was birthed out of that prayer.
Sid: Let’s hear a section from that. (15.36.2)
Michelle: Excerpt of “Shalom.
Sid: My guest by way of telephone is Dave Roberson I’m speaking to him from his headquarters at Tulsa, Oklahoma. Dave I’m just going to scrape my agenda for a moment you have got to tell our Mishpochah about what just happened in Brazil you just got back tell me about it.
Dave: Now Sid I was in 2 cities one was Campo Grande and the other was Sao Paulo a city of maybe 17 million. We was having preachers conferences where the preachers would come and would take them another step into God’s power or some was receiving the Holy Spirit; and about a 1000 was filled with the Holy Spirit in the 2 weeks and maybe 300 miracles took place.
Sid: Tell about 2 outstanding miracles.
Dave: One was a woman who when the power of God came through the crowd was blind. I was going on with the service and she just come up and stood there and just wept and wept and so I looked down. She went to somebody that spoke Portuguese/English. She couldn’t see anything except shadows and she’s reading the wall behind me the print on it and she broke down and I broke down. The second miracle was the last night, of the second I just love to talk about. The second one the meeting was over everyone had been filled and the power of God had moved and healed and I thought that I was just seconds away from turning the mike over the host. The compassion of God fell on me for a man that one night sat on the front row and then a couple of nights the second row. And I noticed these crutches and something like the gift of faith came on me when God kind of trades your faith for His.
Sid: I love that and I’ll make that exchange any day of the week (Laughing).
Dave: It was coupled together with the compassion that I hadn’t felt before. So I just…
Sid: Excuse me you you feel compassion I know you your saying you haven’t felt that degree before?
Dave: Not like that it was kind of like mixed with the gift of faith or something.
Dave: And in the compassion I felt when God washed me all around the words fail, after a month seeking just worshipping day and night He touched me with His finger in my spirit. When He did I knew He had touched me with His love and for the first time. I was able to see people for just seconds it seems like through His eyes. And Sid I wept for 9 hours straight until all of my tear ducts were dried out. He changed… He changed the way I pray for people forever. And this seemed to be coupled together with that.
Sid: So what happened to this individual?
Dave: As in the way I talk you know it, I had a translator I said “Boy come over here.” And he worked his way up on his crutches, worked his way into the aisle and an usher came up behind him. So I reached over and I pried one crutch lose from underneath his arm and the usher reached up and supported him he held him up from behind by the back of his arms. Then I took the other crutch, and all of a sudden compassion and the next thing I knew my arms was around him and I was weeping and weeping and waves of glory, waves of God’s presence was pouring over me. And when that subsided a little bit I stepped back about 7 or 8 feet and the usher took a hold of him and was holding him up and I said “Come here boy,” I said “Come here walk in Jesus name.” And he shifted all of his weight over on his left leg because when I looked down from his knees, down his legs was withered and turned in, he was born that way. So he shifted all of his weight to that foot and he through his right foot out like gravity to take step. And then he shifted all of his weight onto the right leg and through his left leg out using gravity to swing it forward. And then for the third time he shifted it back to his left leg to throw his right leg out and when he did Sid the power of God hit that leg and it shot straight out and straightened out and then his left leg…
Sid: Now let me visualize this for a little bit the leg was like withered?
Dave: It was turned in and small and withered up. He was born that way couldn’t really use it.
Sid: Hmm okay go ahead.
Dave: That leg bent and then shot straight out and then the left leg followed the next thing I knew he was jumping way up and down in the air and bouncing out toward the middle of the platform in front. And 2000 people was on their feet screaming and Sid the waves of His presence and love just so strong all I could do is just weep and turn around and hand my friend the Evangelist Denaro the microphone and I just walked into the backroom and wept and wept. That is the kind of power that we was teaching them there the preachers there that they could walk in and the kind of power any believer “These signs will follow them that believe can have.” Any was God was really moving with signs and wonders backing it up.
Sid: You know Dave.
Sid: I’m reminded of a man that came was a young man at the time he came to my ministry and he said “God told me I need a blessing you’ve got a Jewish ministry the only thing that I can give you is my prayer can I have the key to your office and pray every night.” And I said “Gladly, I’ll give you 2 keys to my office to come in and pray every night. And this fellow felt that his calling in life was to be a businessman and intercessor pray for others. When he was a brand new believer he got some audio cassettes from an evangelist by the name by the name of Dave Roberson. Dave you shared your testimony of what happened to you at age 30 and then how you went work 8 hours a day which was praying in the Spirit. And so he said “Well, I can do that” and he emulated what you did. But over the years he kept getting pushed to be an evangelist but he wasn’t a good speaker but he decided I’ve got to do it. Today he has tent meetings in Latin America thousands of people come into these tent meetings and they have the miracles. The point that I want to make to you Dave is in the natural this man had no ability what so ever, you never would have picked him to be a star evangelist he wanted to be in the background he wanted to be just an intercessor. But he did he started doing what you did he started praying 8 hours a day and it totally transformed his destiny.
Dave: If I was God I wouldn’t have chosen me to do what I do. You know probably the very fact that he was so unwilling to qualify if the natural or to take the glory probably was one of the signature keys that enabled God to get through to him. And Sid you’ll just have to hang in with me I don’t know this presence that’s coming on me now I’m just about ready to cry again.
Sid: Dave he found one key, one key that’s all he just found one key from your testimony and that key was to pray in tongues many hours every day and he did it. And he didn’t feel anything I’ve got to ask you many are not familiar with your testimony but when you were 30 years of age you really a legalistic Christian and God gave you an amazing vision tell me about that.
Dave: Sid I had a hunger for God Sid like you said captured in legalism I was looking for more things to give up for God if that was what He wanted. You know jewelry you know dress a certain way whatever He wanted I was willing to pay the price. He knew how hungry I was and thank goodness He judged me by my hungry I was and thank goodness he judged me by my heart. One morning thinking I was going to see the bedroom like usual but this time an anointing woke me up, and when I opened my eyes it was of a meeting, it was a vision of a meeting and I was sitting in the crowd about 3 or 4 rows back on the left. I knew that it was my meeting and a front man was fronting and leading worship. And there was people in wheelchairs and the glory was so strong and His presence you could cut it with a knife it was amazing. I knew it was my meeting so the worship was just about over and so the man that was emceeing the meeting and I knew that it was my meeting and I was getting ready to stand up. And he says “Now our evangelist” he looks at me for a moment and then looks at the curtain and a young woman she was a blond and came out from behind the curtain and began to minister. And wondered why that God would give her such a ministry and only thing that she could think up was that one of the men must have failed that was the wording. Suddenly when she said that the whole crowd disappeared and I was the only person standing there. So how could I miss it, you know it was me? And so I went home and when I woke up in the vision I remember leaving the meeting something and I came back to myself and I was laying in bed there and I was waiting for Rosalie my wife to wake up and when she did I said “Rosalie I can’t live this way anymore, I said you sleep under a tree dressed in gunny sacks, eat beans the rest of my life” I said. I can’t live this way anymore” and she was all for it. I give 2 weeks notice at the mill I worked at, 2 weeks later I found myself full time. I didn’t know what to do with myself I knew a little bit about praying in tongues but legally I didn’t even know if you could legally do it anytime that you wanted. I wasn’t sure of anything all; I knew was that I had all of this time on my hands now.
Sid: Dave, we’re out of time will pick up on tomorrows broadcast but Mishpochah he found that the only way he could pray long periods of time was in unknown tongues. Many people have heard his testimony and read his book and it’s given them the faith to push into a new area. There are so many things God does for us when we pray in unknown tongues and most charismatic Christians say “Well I have my sign, I prayed in tongues and they never do it.” But do it for a few minutes if they only knew what they only knew what they were missing.
Sid: I believe that we are coming into the greatest move of God’s Spirit in history. I believe that everything, the closer we get to the return of Messiah, is going to be centered on the Jew in Israel and the one new man, the Jew and Gentile with that middle wall of separation coming down; one new man in the Messiah. Now in order to reach the Jew, and this is God’s strategy to reach the world I might add, in order to reach the Jew we’re told in scripture; how “The Jew requires a sign, requires the supernatural.” And I have found that if you will reach Jewish people with the gospel it opens up a supernatural door to reach multitude so of Gentiles with the gospel. That’s why I’m so excited with my guest Jerry Baysinger, I’m speaking to him at his home in Holts Summit, Missouri. And Jerry back in July of ’93 you got a sentence no one wants to heart. What did the doctors tell you?
Jerry: I went into have what I thought was a wart removed off of my lower lip and the doctor looked at it and said “That’s not a wart.” He checked me all over and he found 5 growths on me and he wanted to biopsy. I had one on my nose, one on my upper left ear, one on my lower lip…
Sid: Did you suspect the worst that it might be cancer?
Jerry: I just thought they were warts and he just said “Well, they just don’t look good and I want to test them and biopsy them,” and then they were all malignant melanomas. And then he said “I immediately want to put you in the hospital and remove these growths. And he was talking about cutting a football shape piece out of my lower lip it would require reconstruction.
Sid: That’s almost your mouth.
Jerry: A reconstructive surgery he wanted to remove the top part out of my left ear and a big piece out of my nose and my left lower eyelid and a place off of my left arm. And so he wanted me to go to my family doctor and have blood work and all done predatory for me going to the hospital for surgery. I went to the doctor the doctor told me that there’s something not right about your liver. And then they thought that perhaps that maybe I had hepatitis and they tested me for hepatitis. They tested me for mononucleosis, they tested for AIDS also.
Sid: Did you have any symptoms tell us about what was going on with your liver that you knew something was wrong.
Jerry: I had pain in my pack for a long time, I worked 3 full time jobs, I worked 20 to 22 hours a day 7 days a week for over 20 years.
Sid: My goodness can I hire you? No I’m just teasing go ahead.
Jerry: And I made myself go on a couple hours or less a day.
Jerry: And now still don’t sleep much to this day I don’t require much sleep.
Sid: So what did they find out about your liver?
Jerry: Well, they tested me for 3 days in a row and had me on a particular diet for 3 days and tested my liver and said “There’s still something wrong.” So they sent me to a hospital and they had biopsies done on my liver. And the doctor told me “Well I have good news and bad news, which you want first?” And I said well give me the good news. The doctor said “I don’t think you need all of this surgery that the doctors want you to do.” And I said “Good great I’m glad to hear that, I didn’t want to do that anyway.” And I said “Now what’s the bad news?” He says “The bad news is you have extensive liver cancer,” and he says “I suspect you will be dead and I wouldn’t waste my time on the surgeries.”
Sid: How did that hit you?
Jerry: I remember this pit in my stomach and my skin just felt hot all over and the hair on the back of my neck stood up. I’ve never had a feeling like that before; it’s just like somebody sticks a gun in your face. Well I’ve had that happen to me before and it didn’t even do that to me. And all of a sudden my whole world crumbled, I had just been married at the time 4 years and the love of my life and still married to. All of a sudden I started thinking about the time back when I was 16 years old that I went up to receive Jesus as my Savior, or thought I did but realized that my life had never changed and I was living a very sinful life. And didn’t even care about living a sinful life and I realized I was going to be spending some time in the future some place I didn’t want to be. Between that and my wife were my 2 biggest thoughts. I actually have to say thoughts about what was going to happen to my wife was actually the first and foremost thought even above my own, my own life.
Sid: That’s… who could be prepared for a doctor to say “You have 1 month to live?” You can’t prepare for something like that. Now you went to your church, you were anointed with oil; truthfully did you believe you would be healed?
Jerry: I went to church every week like a lot of people do doing God a favor I thought. I had a lot of religion; I had no relationship with the Savior whatsoever. So I can’t really say I had a lot of faith because I didn’t. When I was anointed for healing I didn’t feel anything, some people say “Well, I felt a heat going all over me.” I felt nothing I really didn’t but in about 3 weeks my melanoma started going away. However the pain in my body got worse and worse and worse and over a period of another 2 or 3 months I got down to 86 pounds.
Sid: How much do you weigh today?
Jerry: About 145. Now when I was diagnosed my normal body weight at that time was normally about 123 pounds and I had never been any heavier than 123 pounds up till that time.
Sid: Yeah but at 86 pounds you were skin and bones.
Jerry: I was so thin I only had one side.
Jerry: And uh…
Sid: Actually no, I got real serious about getting into God’s word because that day that I was prayed for I asked Jesus to be my Lord and Savior and I did. I said “Lord I thought I asked You to be my Savior back then but I see that nothing really happened in my life and I can see that I have no relationship with You. So today I’m asking you to come into my heart and I ask you to be my Lord and Savior and save me Father.” And the Lord told me to open my Bible to Psalms 103 verses 2 and 3 and it says “Bless the Lord oh my soul and forget not all of His benefits; who forgiveth all thine iniquities and healeth all thy diseases.” And I said “Well Lord, then what does this mean Lord that are you going to heal me?” And I felt the presence of God speak inside of me; I didn’t hear it in my ears I just sensed Him saying to me “Jerry, I have already healed you.” And I remember saying out loud “You could have fooled me.” I was getting, you know I was in a lot of pain and about the time about 3 months had passed and I got down to about 86 pounds. I had been confessing the word of God that I was healed by the stripes of Jesus many times a day. I bet I could say 100 times a day every time a pain hit me, and it was pretty often, I would be saying “I’m healed by the stripes of Jesus.” And faith started rising up in me and over…
Sid: Had you been taught about saying this, doing things like this?
Jerry: Someone gave me a tape an evangelist friend of mine gave me a tape by a gentleman by the name of Charles Capps that talks about the power of the tongue. And he was teaching them there that you speak the word of God and you believe what you say and then of course Mark 11:23 and 24 say that. “Whatever you speak and doubt not in your heart you shall have whatsoever you sayeth.” So I started speaking it and I found that as I spoke it, spoke it that I started believing what I was reading in the Bible and I read the Bible out loud every day. I had nothing to do basically and to spend my time immersing myself in the word of God. I had been a civilian employee of the Missouri State Highway patrol for 21½ years and when they told me I was going to be dead in a month I resigned. I figure if I have a month to live I’m sure not going to waste it here.
Sid: But months went by and you knew that you were healed, but was there a moment that it happened or was it a gradual thing?
Jerry: I think it was a gradual thing like I said my melanoma started going away just on their own in about 2 or 3 weeks; the pain however got worse. And I look back on it and I realize that well the devil was trying to make me believe that God’s word didn’t work but it did work.
Sid: Now how long have you been cancer free?
Jerry: I’ve been cancer free all of these years since then. I never went back to the doctor to have them check me I just…
Sid: Since ’93.
Jerry: Right. They told me I was going to die in a month and there came a point that I was going to say probably 8–9 months later that I knew that I knew that there wasn’t any cancer in my body.
Sid: But you got more than you bargained for, you got more than a healing you found out that you started praying for people and they would get healed.
Sid: But the thing that intrigues me even more than that Jerry is these words of knowledge these very specific words of knowledge. Had you every experienced anything like that previously?
Jerry: No, I had… well, yes I have to back up and say that but I didn’t recognize what it was and what it was from but now very often. I would say maybe 3 or 4 times in my life time.
Sid: I mean in Africa you would know specific family members.
Sid: What their sicknesses were.
Sid: I mean this had to stagger even you!
Jerry: Ah huh and it still does today. I had a church that I was at holding a healing service and God told me to walk over to this man and put my hand on his chest and just say “Lord show him your mercy.” Now I didn’t have a word of knowledge about that I had a word of knowledge to go and put my hand on his chest. About 10 days after I got home I got a letter from one of the church elders that this man had a mass in his chest the doctors were going to operate on him. And he went to the doctor to have them do the surgery and they x-rayed him prior to surgery and it was gone! And they x-rayed him again from another angle and it was absolutely gone.
Sid: And our time unfortunately is just about gone. Mishpochah I believe that Jerry’s going to have words of knowledge this week. That’s where I’m going to put my faith right now but I’m holding in my hand a missing link. Now what I’m talking about is the missing link in the church. There is something that is a mystery to me as a Jewish believer in Jesus is why is so many Jewish people miss that Jesus was the Messiah His first coming. And my friend Dr. Robert Fischer researched the Dead Sea Scrolls and found some amazing things. He’s written a book called “Full Circle.” I’ll tell you more about it but it’s going to fill in the missing links for you.
Sid: Well all this week I have been sharing my testimony. Why? Because God is about ready to pour out His Spirit on Jewish people like never before in history. God has destined Gentile Christians to share the gospel with Jewish people.
If you can understand my life you can understand the average Jewish American person. They will relate to one or more members of my family as you read my life’s story and how my entire house came to believe in Jesus.
On yesterday’s broadcast I told you I left my wife, my daughter, and my job at Merrill Lynch. I went searching for happiness; big world out there when you don’t know what you’re searching for. Things rather than getting progressively better they were getting progressively worse. I was a sales manager of an investment house, and one of my salesmen came to me on day and he said “Sid I have a friend who took a supernatural course and as a result he knows things about people. He had no psychic ability beforehand, and after taking this course he can tell you things about people.” I thought “Ah! If I have this ability it would give me the edge to make a million dollars. If I make a million dollars I’ll be happy.”
Well that was a lie but… I believe lies, you don’t believe truth you believe lies. So I went to investigate his friend. His friend said “Give me the name of someone that I don’t know and I’ll tell you what’s wrong with that person.” So I gave him the name of a person that I knew had committed suicide and shot himself in the head, or he tried to commit suicide. This is what the man said, I just gave the individual’s name, that’s all he knew. The individual was in another city, this guy was in New Jersey the individual was in Washington DC. There’s no way he could have known this. He said “Sid I see this individual and I see a light heading toward this individual’s head. I see this light going into his head, I see it shattering. Could he have been shot in the head with a bullet?”
I knew somehow that this man tapped into the supernatural and I wanted to be able to do what this man did, so I took this course. It was a crazy course, but they offered me my money back if it didn’t work. I was convinced it was going to work. So I stayed for that whole week, it couldn’t have been too bad of a course because there were Catholic nuns there, and ministers there, and Christians with big crosses so it had to be good, so I thought.
So they taught me how to meditate, they taught me through mental exercises how to lower my brain waves, sort of like what you do in sleep or in hypnosis. When you get in this real passive state you invite an imaginary friend they called it a counselor into your head. Then this counselor will answer your questions. Well, I did this and I just thought I was making the whole thing up, and so at the end of the class to get my money back I had to take the test. If I failed the test they’d give me my money back, if I passed the test wonderful I’d make my million and be happy. I mean that was my logic.
So I took the test and they had a little file card, I remember this. They had someone’s name on the side and they had what was wrong with them on the other side. So I had a file card and the person next to me had one. We looked at each other, so this person said to me someone’s name. I closed my eyes and I said “Counselor what’s wrong with this person?” I saw a stick figure of a woman and an “X” over one of her breast and I remember blurting out “Could she have cancer of the left breast?” The guy looked at me and said “That’s exactly what she has!”
I knew I had tapped into this and I was so excited so that I could make my million dollars so I could be happy. I found out I got more than I bargained for, this power started increasing. What do I mean by that? Instead of asking questions I would just think thoughts and things would start… for instance, I remember one day I thought “Well I don’t want to be a sales manager in this investment house, I want to be in business for myself.” It seemed like hours later someone comes to my office that I had only met once or twice. They said they had just purchased a large office building and they had extra space if I ever wanted to go into business for myself; they’ll give me free rent, free secretary, free telephone. I thought “This power really is sensational.” Of course I didn’t know that this businessman, who I barely knew, he had a power of his own, he was one of these born again Christians. God had spoken to him and told him to offer me this free space. I thought it was my power but there was a greater power moving in on me and I didn’t even realize it.
I went to their office and I made havoc out of their office, and I mean literally. They had Bible studies there, they had this one business partner had come in, I remember he spent a year in Israel with his entire family. So I said “What did you do?” He said “Oh I worked on a kibbutz.” I said “Oh did you make much money?” He said “No, I did it for free.” I said “You’re a Gentile, why did you work in Israel for a year, hard work on a kibbutz for free?” He said “Because I love the Jewish people.” I thought “What kind of nut is this. I mean the other guy, they both have big leather Bibles on their desks, I mean how can they make any money with these big leather Bibles on their desks?”
So they would invite me to their prayer meetings and I remember saying some of the stupidest things. They kept their cool, but one day I remember one of the business partners came into my office and he said “Sid I’ve just pretty much reached my limit with you. Do you know that you are involved in spiritual adultery?” I said “Come again [laughing], what are you talking about?” He said “Do you know that you are involved in spiritual adultery?” I said “No I’m not.” He said “Look in your own Bible.” He opened the Torah and went to the book of Deuteronomy the 18th chapter starting at the 10th verse, 10-12, and he read it to me. Remember I was involved in the New Age. This is what God told Moses and He actually uses the word an abomination.
There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire. (That’s sacrificing children, today we have a squeaky clean word for that it’s called abortion.) , or one who practices witchcraft (Watch television today and who is the big news on TV? Things about wizards, movies about New Age, movies about channeling, you can’t turn on television these days without hearing references to these things, Harry Potter.), or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer (Remember these are all abominations God says.), or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead (That’s channeling by the way. Now this is what happens to these people God says:). For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord, and because of these abominations the Lord your God drives them out from before you.
I said “Wait a second now! I don’t believe the Bible was from God.” Remember I came from a good traditional Jewish background, but I wasn’t sure the Bible was from God. So I thought “I’m not going to do this, I don’t think God is saying this is bad, I’m not going to stop using my mind power.” So I had this tug of war going on inside of me and I thought “Well on the 1% chance that this is God I am going to stop using this power and see what happens.” I’ll tell you something I got the shock of my life because remember that counselor that I invited into my head to answer all of my questions? He started cursing me, especially when I said “Instead of doing this mind stuff I’ll start reading the Bible, find out a little bit about my Jewish background, read a little bit of the New Testament.” This counselor got so angry with me started cursing, I mean it really scared me. It scared to the point I just got in a car and started driving one day. I remember I went to a bookstore just a secular big bookstore. I went to the biggest area in the bookstore where they had the New Age books, and I remember seeing a book it was called “The Bible, the Jew, and the Supernatural” by McCandlish Phillips, “Perfect for me!” I’m starting to read the Bible, I’m Jewish, and I’m interested in the Bible, but they made a mistake this book should not have been in the New Age/Occult section it should have been in the Christian section. The point that is made is different than what my Christian friends had told me. My Christian friends had told me “It was an abomination for a Jew to be involved in any of these things, for anyone to be involved in any of these things” and it was true. But this book had a new wrinkle, the new wrinkle was we Jews have a covenant from God, Gentiles don’t we have a covenant from God. Therefore, for a Jewish person to be involved in the New Age is greater consequence in sin than even for a Gentile.
So I started reading this book and it had one Jew after another that was involved in the New Age that lost their mind or lost their life. I remember getting to one particular one, he happened to be my hero, a Jewish man by the name of Brian Epstein, he was the manager of the Beatles. At the time the book was written the Beatles were at their all-time height. They even said they were more popular than Jesus Christ. Do you remember that? They all went to the Himalayas including the Jew, Brian Epstein. But only one died at that point the Jew, Brian Epstein. Who had everything I thought would have been happiness and he was dead for doing things as bad what I was doing. I’m thinking “Could I be in violation with God? Could I be in league with the devil?” I remember I used to be able to open a dictionary ask myself a question and just point at random and get a specific answer. So I went to the dictionary and instead of one word I started getting a message. The message I got, one word after another, it was “Refrain from using this sinful book.” I’ll tell you that really put the fear of God in me, but the thing that was even worse is what happened next. What happened next is I got involved in something called Astral Projection, that is where you spirit leaves your body. If you have ever seen Rod Serling movies where you know science-fiction… I tell you I had a plot it was anything he ever imagined. My times up today.
SID: Hello. Sid Roth here. Welcome. Welcome to my world where it’s naturally supernatural. My next guest goes out among people that do not know the Messiah and he carries such a strong presence of God that people that do not know the Messiah feel, actually feel the presence of God. They get physically healed, these are people that do not know the Messiah, they get physically healed and then they want to know who the healer is and come to know the Messiah. Now he says his greatest desire is to equip you to do everything he can and even greater. Are you interested? Robbie Dawkins had a life-defining moment at nine, and I believe it could very well be a life-defining moment for you. You see, his parents were pastors and they had a heart for the young kids that were drugs addicts, and they brought a young man in that had nowhere to go. But guess where they put him? In your bedroom.
ROBBY: That’s right.
SID: Tell me about that.
ROBBY: Right beside me in my bedroom, and I don’t recommend that necessarily. But yeah, my dad had a huge heart for people. So he went out one night and found this young man who was a heroin addict and had run away from home. His dad was beating him every day and it was just horrible situation, brought him home, and was helping him get off drugs. In fact, there were less programs for people like that. And so he was helping him get off drugs, and he was really sick in a really bad way, I mean, every day went through DTs and detoxing in his system. And so it was about the third day and I was seeing, I literally had seen my dad have to hold this guy even from hurting himself, you know. And about the third day I woke up and he was had his arm up on the window sill. I had a really high window sill in my bedroom, and he was looking out in the back yard, and his back was faced to me. And I jumped back when I woke up and I saw him, and I said, “Hey, are you okay?” And he turned, and he looked at me, and when he turned and he looked at me I just saw tears streaming down his face, tears all over his t-shirt. And I said, “Are you all right?” And he said, “Robbie,” he goes, “This morning I woke up and I was really sick.” And he said, “I’m going through withdrawal,” and he said, “and Jesus was standing at the end of my bed after I had said, who would want somebody like me, who would want me? You know, I’m messed up. I’m, you know, so sick and so, you know, I’ve done so many horrible things. And then Jesus standing at the end of the bed said, ‘I’ll take you.'” And he got up out of his bed and he ran to him, and Jesus just wrapped his arms around him, and just began to rock him. And his father would beat him every day and, you know, say these horrible things about him, and he just began, Jesus began to whisper in his ear all these things he never heard his father say about him, affirming things, encouraging things, loving things. And with that he, you know, he just said, he totally took away all the addiction. He took away all the shame of all the horrible that he had been doing, you know, and just in an instant just took it all away. And he said, “He just took everything away, Robbie.” And I got up, and I ran to my parents’ bedroom, and I sort of burst in the room, and it was early in the morning, and I woke my parents up, and I startled my dad, and he thought, and he jumped up and he said, “What did he do?” You know, he had thought of me or that something had scared me.
SID: Nine years old.
ROBBY: Yeah, nine. And I looked him and I told him what I saw, and through tears, I was crying by this time. And I looked at my parents, and I said, “That’s what I want to see the rest of my life. I want to see Jesus do that in people’s lives. I want to see Jesus change people like that.” And I’ve been addicted to that ever since.
SID: I want you to have a heart like that. We have a world of people that are falling apart at the seams. So Robbie understands this and he becomes a youth pastor, and he starts praying for people. The only problem is they start getting worse, not better. Really?
ROBBY: That’s true. Every, I mean, it was a running joke at the church that they said, don’t get Dawkins to pray for you. He can turn paper cuts into cancer.
ROBBY: I mean, that’s how bad. It was like people, if I prayed for you, you got worse, things got worse. Nobody ever got better, I mean, not even the slightest, you know, easements of condition. Nobody got better.
SID: Okay. With that in mind, he gets a phone call and there’s a woman on the other end of the line and what does she say?
ROBBY: She calls and she says, “You know, I need somebody to do something for my father.” She says, “He’s going in for his third heart bypass surgery. He’s in really bad condition.” She said, “My mom and I had to talk the doctors into doing the surgery. They didn’t want to do it because he’s in such bad shape.” And she said, “You know, there’s not much hope here.” And she goes, “I need somebody to burn a candle, rub some beads, whatever you guys do,” she goes, “I need somebody to do that.” “You know, at this church, we don’t really burn candles or rub beads,” I said, “but I can pray for him.” And of course, in my mind I’m thinking, this poor lady. She got the wrong guy on the phone right now, you know. And so I started praying and I was just like, Lord, thank you for this day. I was just doing what I call a one, two, three prayer. There I was, I just wanted to get off the phone. And all of a sudden I’m in the middle of the prayer, and I’m just saying, Lord, thank you for this day. I even say this, I even say this, Lord, I pray that he put all his affairs in order, I pray that he has the right insurance.
SID: I don’t want you praying for me.
ROBBY: Exactly. Exactly. And I’m like, I pray that he’s, I mean, because I’m doing this guy’s eulogy over the phone. I’m digging a hole, I’m burying him, I’m shoving him in the ground. He’s dead as far as I’m concerned. And so in the midst of this, all of a sudden, I just heard, I heard the Holy Spirit just speak to me, and I just heard him say, “Get out on a limb.” And I was like, that’s weird. I said, I don’t like heights. What does that mean? I don’t want to get out on a limb. And then he spoke to me and said, “Take a risk.” And I had never heard anybody say that phrase in relationship to prayer, faith or anything. I didn’t know what that meant. And then he said, “Open your mouth and I’ll fill it.” And that comes from the Psalms. All of a sudden it occurred to me and he was saying, “I want you to say something you normally wouldn’t say. Open your mouth, let it say something you normally wouldn’t say.” And so I just said, “You know, God is about to,” and I didn’t know what I was going to say next. I had no idea what I was going to say next. And it just kind of flew out of my mouth, “Completely heal your father.” I said, “As a matter of fact, God is going to give your father a brand new heart and he’s going to give him brand new lungs to go with it.” Now she had said nothing about lungs. She had not even mentioned lungs.
SID: I’ll tell you what, hold that thought. And this is so amazing. When we come back you’re going to hear the punchline.
Sid: Remember a movie a few years ago “One Flew over the Cuck Coo.” It was about a mental hospital well I have a guest that they could have written that script from. His name is Dr. Gary Whetstone he’s the Senior Pastor at Victory Christian Fellowship in Wilmington Delaware. And in 1971 I mean Gary was like the all American boy good grades, into sports and a freak accident an automobile accident and it stopped him from being involved in athletics, he got involved in motorcycle gangs and drugs, he’s full of fear, full of hatred and it ended up being institutionalized for the criminally insane. He was actually put into isolation but worse than that they felt that there was nothing they could do to help him so they were going to give him intense electric therapy which would reduce his mind permanently to a 3 year old. A day before this happens or 2 days before this happens a man comes to him in the hospital leads him to the Lord and after a few minutes Gary felt just totally different it was like his mind was sound what happened next Gary?
Gary: Sid this is an experience that most people when they hear it’s going to be a shock to them because my hair was down to the center of my back, my beard was down to almost hitting my stomach and I was so drugged because I lived in the Isolation Ward having beaten my head against the walls and literally eating out of the same pan that I went to the bathroom in you get an idea of the gross torment that I was in. And this man’s words that spoke to me I had no idea what was going to happen but something took place. My parents had signed a waiver that they had no legal recourse over the State of Delaware because of the experimental guinea pig that I was now a candidate for where they cut a hole in the cranium right through the bone of your head and they insert a probe and burn like…just like a hot curling iron would kill the flesh of the brain they were going to kill that spot on my brain the entire lobe of my brain was going to be killed electronically. And I was going to be reduced to a vegetable and I knew it and a man I’d never heard of before, never knew before came and met me in an isolated area. And he said to me “Gary the power of sin is going to kill you.” I thought sin was the procedure they were going to do on my mind. I thought sin was what the results were and I was going to physically die, I thought he was a representative of the hospital telling me they’re going to do sin on me and I’ll die. But he said something that I really can’t remember every word he said but I remember something that happened to me. He said “But if you would receive Jesus.” And as soon as that word Jesus came out of his mouth I was broken like some-buddy just breaks his 2 x 4 in half and on the carpet just crying and crying and crying and all of a sudden I lifted up my head off the carpet and I said to this man “What did you do?” He said “What do you mean?” I said “My mind it’s normal.” He said “Well you got born again.” I said “What’s that?” He said “You got saved.” I said “What’s that?” He said “You don’t know what happened to you?” I said “I’d never heard of this before what did you do?” He said “I’m sorry my times up I have to leave.” (Laughing) And I said “You can’t leave you don’t know what happened I’m going to have a part of my brain killed you don’t know what’s going to happen to me.” He goes “I have another appointment I’m sorry thank you for the time.” I’m saying “Thank you for the time.” And the next thing you know the guard comes and puts the straight re-straights on my hands, my feet, my arms and he walks out and I’m lead right back to the isolation cell that was padded on all sides where I’d lose my life. And I’m telling you what happened Sid it was the most incredible fervor of intensity I’d ever lived because I beat my knuckles until they were bloody almost to the bone. And I had this little tiny window that I just could scream out of it and all I could remember saying “I’m sane now!” Of course in a mental hospital being said you’re sane you know is a pretty normal thing and I’m screaming “I’m sane, I’m sane.” So finally after I’d say several hours…
Sid: It’s like the prisoner saying “I’m not guilty.”
Gary: Exactly it’s the jail house talk, it’s the mental hospital declaration “I don’t belong here I’m normal!” Finally the attendant comes over and I’m ready for this procedure and the next day and this guy says “I’m sorry what do you want?” I said “I’ve got to meet with the physiatrist he’s got to know I’m sane!” So after several hours they lead me back out of that isolation area and I was bound in my hands and my feet and they led me through these corridors into the physiatrist office. And for some reason which I don’t understand they took the restraints off of my hands and my feet and I sat there across the desk from this man and of course the guards were outside and he said to me “What is the condition that you want to communicate? And I said this is what happened to me “A man came in I received this word Jesus and He came in.” He said “This Jesus came in?” And I said “Yeah.” And I said “When He came in I could think normal.” And he said to me “And this Jesus makes you think normal.” And I said “Yeah you got it.” And he said “Do you hear Him talk?” And I said “Yeah, that’s right I can hear Him talk and because I hear Him talk I know I’m sane.” And he sits back in his chair and he says “Gary I’m sorry this is a further development of this intense multi-personality disorder schizophrenia disorder and the deep psychotic state that you’re in living with aberrations of God being your sanity. And all of a sudden I looked up at him and I realized Sid that he didn’t believe me so what did I do but I lunged over the desk and bam I punched that guy in the face and I started beating him and beating him he didn’t believe me. And then at that point he hit the panic button and all of the sudden I get drugged back out by the whole group of people. And you’ve got to understand Sid he didn’t believe that I was sane. But what happened…
Sid: You must have been desperate I mean talk about you’re about really to have what we would call a lobotomy which means you’ll be a vegetable the rest of your life and God’s made you normal so what did you do?
Gary: Well they took me out of that room obviously dragging me kicking and screaming and they take the shackles off of me because I’m guided by a hallway into an isolation cell or my padded room they called it. And all of the sudden there’s a guard looking on one side of the this hallway in a little window that you can take a picture of all of the glass and all of the steel in it and the other door with all of the glass and all of the steel in it and I’ve got Property of State Hospital shirt, Property of State Hospital pants, socks on and that’s it and I here this voice saying to me “Run!” I’m thinking “Run?” Now this is a different voice I’m used to hearing voices because I was you know (Laughing) you know…
Sid: It goes with the territory.
Gary: You know you don’t get locked up in an isolated cell because you’re normal.
Sid: Okay you hear this voice saying “Run.” But you’ve got guards all around you and actually what do you do?
Gary: I’m thinking “Where do I run?” And I just hear this word “Run!” So I looked and there was a door where I remembered when I came out that had a chain on it double dead bolts and it had a crash bar where the chain and the pad lock was and the chain was undone and both the deadlocks were opened and I busted through the door and I ran across the Mental Hospital’s grounds and I realized it’s snowing outside I’m cold, I’m wet.
Sid: You don’t even have shoes on!
Gary: I have no shoes on I didn’t even know cold wet existed I mean I’d been living in an isolation padded cell with a sentence of death on my life and now I go back in my mind when the State Police brought me in I remember seeing an area where people I guess were more trusted mental patients were and I found a door that I could get into to and I ran in that door. And I screamed out “I’m on the run!” So all of the sudden you can get the picture of this is where “One Who Flew over the Cuckoo’s Nest takes place. And here are these men going “Run, run, run and I remember the cries going out “Run!” And I said “I need a coat I’ve got to have shoes.” So they throw this huge coat over me and these size…they had to be size 14 shoes I put them on my feet and I say “How, where do I go?” And they say “There that way.” So I’m running out of this mental hospital and I see the guard shack up ahead and I say “Oh my God they’re going to think I’m escaping from the mental hospital.” So I tuck my beard inside the coat, I tuck my hair inside, I try to bow my heard down and I walked up to the guard shack and I wave and I said “I’m leaving now.” They said “Fine.” And the man unlocked the gate so I could walk out of the mental hospital grounds free.”
Sid: How, how did that happen?
Gary: I don’t know what was in that guards mind but that man for some reason it had to have been a miracle from God opened the gate believing that I must have been one of the workers in the hospital.
Sid: But you had the patients garb on!
Gary: Oh, I had everything on I had the white pants that said “Property of the State Hospital.” The only thing I can think of that God had to have blinded his eyes and I’m telling you when I got on the other-side of that road or the other-side of that gate I stepped onto that road and I started running. And one of the most incredible things took place when I was running and I mean I was not running slowly I was running with everything in me to escape and get down the road because I mean they’re going to take my life. I ran literally through a car…
Sid: Through a car?
Gary: This is…listen to me this is a little strange but that’s my life anyway. There was a car that I know ran into me but the next thing I knew it didn’t hit me. I looked at myself I’m on the side of the road and I looked over and the cars off the other side of the road and I think “What was that?”
Sid: Gary Gary hold that thought we’re out of time Mishpochah it gets even better come back tomorrow.
Sid: My guest by way of telephone is Dr. John Miller he’s a Physician a Chiropractor from Tampa, Florida; an expert in alternative medicine, vitamins and herbs and the whole works. And he has found out that early church understood the atonement completely. Not the atonement of only the forgiveness of sin but the atonement of forgiving all of our sins and healing all of our diseases. He has spent the last 20 years of his life studying communion. As a result I’m going to have him teach on it this week as he has done all of last week and on Friday we’re going to take communion together and it’s going to change your life. Dr. Miller if you would start wherever you’d like to.
John: I would like to pick up with 1st Timothy chapter 4 which we talked about last time where Paul said “That some will give heed to seducing spirits in the last days having men abstain from certain meats which were to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.” And we talked about you have to know the truth of God that Jesus took your infirmities and bore your sicknesses before you can eat just any creature because there were clean and unclean things. But the Lord goes on to say here that “All creatures of God are good and nothing to be refused if it’s received with thanksgiving for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.” We talked about God being the creator of both sciences, the science of the spirit world and the science of the physical world. And we’re trying to believe God to get the point where we walk above the physical laws that we can walk above the ones that we talked about “Honoring your mother and father and you’re days shall be long upon the face of the earth and things will be well with you.” This is applying a spiritual law to your life which will override other things in the physical world that will come against your health. Now I want to go to 1st Timothy 6 the last 2 verses. Now this is the way Paul now he just gave Timothy that “All creatures of God are good and nothing to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving because it’s sanctified by the word.” Now that’s God’s spiritual sign; medical science will tell you just the opposite but listen to the last 2 verses “Oh Timothy keep that which is committed to thy trust.” In other words, “That which I taught you hang on to. Avoid profane and vain babblings and oppositions of science falsely so called which some professing have erred concerning the faith.” So Paul says that you will err in the faith. Remember faith is believing what God said; if you pay attention to the oppositions of science. The scriptures said “For we walk by faith and not by sight.” In other words we’re to walk by the spiritual laws not the physical laws. “For we look not at things that are seen but at things that are non-seen, but of things that are seen are temporal to things that are not seen are eternal.” Paul said this “I care to know nothing among you except and Him crucified.” I take that as my personal commission. When I go from church to church or audience to audience I care nothing among them accept Christ in Him crucified. Paul said that we’re a 3 part being a spirit, soul and body 1st Corinthians 3:23 “I pray that your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless until the coming of the Lord.” Now Jesus Christ did a complete work at Calvary; He did something at Calvary that will make you whole spiritually, make you healed in the soul and make you healed in the body. Isaiah 53:5 is the verse that sums up the entire atonement “He was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities (transgressions and iniquities are sin bears your spiritual atonement) “the chastisement of our peace was upon Him.” (There’s your mental atonement; the mental atonement is for the soul; the theologians put mind, will and emotion as characterizing the soul) “And with His stripes we were healed.” So there’s the physical part of the atonement; you’re a 3 part being in Christ there’s a 3 part atonement. That’s why He could say “Be thou made whole.” You can be made whole spiritually, mentally and physically by what Jesus did at Calvary. And the Church has lost that message, thank God they still have the spiritual part. Most churches conventional churches teach that Jesus paid for your sins and by accepting Jesus as your Savior your sins are forgiven. But we supply Christian psychologists and psychiatrists, and we fret with the people at the altar, we supply hospitals and clinics and nutritional programs for the physical. And Jesus provided totally at Calvary for every area of our life. That’s why Paul could say “I care to know nothing among you accept Jesus Christ and Him crucified.” If you’re sick in the spirit, you’re sick in the mind, sick in the body Jesus Christ had the answer at Calvary. And you take advantage of it by the same method in all 3 areas. You take your sin to the foot of the cross and exchange it for Jesus’ righteousness. You have imputed righteousness you don’t stand before God in your own righteousness, but you stand before God in Jesus’ righteousness. He took your sins you take his righteousness. “The chastisement of our peace was upon Him.” Peter said “Casting all of your care over on the one that cares for you.” That’s why we can do it because at Calvary Jesus went through mental anguish. I have a machine in the office you put 2 little clips on the fingers and it measures the amount of electricity going in and going out. And the capillary beds as they change size when they alter the resistance to that electricity; this is the basis of a lie detector test. You cam hock that up on a person and pull their hair and the machine will buzz and the needle will go up. You can turn the machine very sensitive and you can ask them questions. If a man’s wife was named Alice and I said “What is your wife’s name and he said “Alice” and if the machine buzzed he told the truth but if he’s in a fight with Alice he’s going to have an emotional response to it. So even the capillary beds in the fingers change according to your emotional response. Well Jesus was the first one we record in history that sweated great drops of blood in the garden. That’s where He paid for the mental part of the atonement. In Isaiah 50 verse 6 it says “I gave My back to the smiters and my cheeks to them who pluck the hair out and I hid not my face from shame and spitting.” Jesus carried our shame everything that would come against us in the mental atonement Jesus carried at Calvary. He carried it much more than we could ever carry it. We’ve never sweated great drops of blood he did. Hebrews says that “He endured the cross for the glory that was put before Him despising the shame.” He didn’t want to take our shame but when He took our sin in Him He had to take the shame that goes along with it. And the reason He said “I hide not my face from shame and spitting” is because your face is the part of your anatomy that denotes your mental condition. If you see a businessman picked up on the 6:00 news arrested for a drug deal what does he do he hides his face from the camera.
John: On the other hand if we have someone that walks in the room and he’s got his nose in the air we say “Boy he’s proud.” So your face reflects the mental. “The chastisement of our peace was upon Him.” In Isaiah 53 is the chapter in the Bible that gives most about the atonement it says “He was despised and rejected.” Well psychologists and psychiatrists tell us that we all suffer rejection so that’s nothing that other men don’t do, but look at the rejection of Jesus. Jesus created the world with His words; He created us for His pleasure and then we turned against Him. He left His heavenly home came to earth to restore us and was rejected by the people that He came to restore. It says “He was (In verse 7) He was oppressed.” Now the psychologist’s tell us we all suffer from some oppression and depression but the oppression that Jesus took was far greater than we could ever imagine. So He did something mentally so we could cast all of our cares over on Him. And you take advantage of it the same way that you do sin. The psychologists and psychiatrists want to probe you about everything that happened in your childhood that maybe affecting you. And this is contrary to scriptures Paul says “It’s a shame to speak of evil things done in secret.”
John: You don’t talk about it; I’ve had psychology training in college; I am an ordained minister. It’s not my job to sit down with a person and bring out all of their episodes in their life that’s causing a mental condition. Just like we couldn’t have you name all of your sins. You say “Father forgive me for all of my sins” and they’re all forgiven. When you understand what Jesus did for you at Calvary you can take every care every worry.
Sid: Every fear.
John: Every fear to the cross and exchange it for the peace that passeth all understanding.
Sid: And your point of contact that God Himself ordained is communion. And on Friday’s broadcast Dr. John Miller and I are going to take communion and you take it with us and I believe that you’re going to find out that you will be healed not just in your emotions but any physical need that you have any spiritual need that you have.