SID: So how would you like to be in a situation where God Himself says to you, you’re a pastor of a successful church, your candle is going to go out because you’re doing it your way. You’re not doing it my way. You have a choice. You can continue doing it your way and say, but I’m accomplishing so much, and then guess what? Not only will your candle go out, everything you’ve accomplished that you think is so wonderful will be burned with fire and not count for eternity. So what changes occurred as a result of this vision?
GARY: Soon after that vision we had, God had spoken to me to buy a building in West Philadelphia, and He gave me the exact number to pay, $365,000 for it. I sent two of the ministers that we have in our church up to find the building. I knew exactly where it was. I watched it in my spirit. They got there. I said, “You’re there. Just turn around. Where’s the building?” And they said, “There’s a building there but it’s sold.” I said, “That’s it. Go find the owner. That’s what we’re getting.” Anyway, long story, it was sold for over millions of dollars. The whole thing fell through. Finally the owner calls back to our office and he says, “I’ll sell it, but I’m not going to sell it for that price.” I said, “But that’s the price I heard from God, so that’s what you’re paying.” Long story short, we buy the property, $365,000. It’s a factory. We bought a factory in Philadelphia. Look at the picture. Look at how large that it is, how large it is. So the next thing I know, what I was doing was planting churches because, of course—
SID: That’s your thing.
GARY: That’s what you do.
GARY: So we have Bible colleges. We opened up schools. We have schools around the world. We produced pastors and leaders. We put a church in there. So I’m hearing now, what is God saying now? So I began to say, God—
SID: And by the way, what he just described was before he had this vision. Now he’s got this church. He’s in Philly. Supernaturally he got it. But where was your mistake?
GARY: My mistake was putting a church in there, because God never called—
SID: But that’s what you do. You put churches in there.
GARY: That’s the problem. See, people do things because they believe that’s what they do rather than hear from God to do what He’s saying to do. And as a result, we do things out of a systemic like sense of obligation or responsibility, or activity in what other people. Because we have such a large broad amount of people coming in to our location in Delaware, it would only make sense to put a church in Baltimore, one in Philadelphia, and reach out to the people that are coming.
SID: Okay. But now you don’t want your candle to go out. You don’t want it to burn with fire. What do you do? You’re already stuck. You got a church going.
GARY: I get the pastor that’s at the church in his position. I said, “Look, is God talking today about this church?” I said, “Forget what I had you doing. Forget what you’ve been doing for a couple of years. Today is God speaking to you about this church.” He said, no. I said, “We’re closing it. We’re selling the building.”
SID: How could you do that? You got people going there. How could you stop it?
GARY: You know, Sid, if every pastor only did exactly what God said we’d have far less out there and much more effectiveness in the Kingdom of God. Far more out there. Effectiveness.
SID: Okay. So what happened to this building?
GARY: We got a $1,850,000 for it. We walked out with a $1,500,000 in profit, paid off all the debts. We have no debt whatsoever in the ministry, all the burden lifted off everything, and now we do everything without any debt or encumbrance whatsoever.
SID: Well you know what’s even more exciting? He supernaturally teaches people how to hear God’s voice, did it in his own church. The people in his congregation hear God about their marriage. What happened with marriages?
GARY: Talking of marriages, here’s a guy coming up with a fiancé. This is a story about hearing God’s voice. He says, “I want to marry her.” So I said, “Wait a minute.” And I’m listening and God says, “She’s not to be his wife. He has a wife.” I said, “Well where is your wife?” He goes, “I don’t have a wife.” I said, “No, where is your wife?” He says, “Twenty years ago I got a divorce.” I said, “Where is she?” He said, “I don’t know. I haven’t talked to her.” I said, “Before I even talk to you about getting married to this woman,” I said, “I want you to go back and ask God who your wife is and find out what is God going to do with your life.” He comes back. He says, “You know, Gary, I can’t believe this.” He said, “I couldn’t even remember her name when you asked me where she was. It was like she was gone, gone.” He said, “But all of a sudden I got this love for her.” And I’m thinking, okay, what happened to the girl you brought up here? How’s this going to go? What did she hear from God?
SID: I’m glad you’re the pastor and not me.
GARY: He finally got the one he was looking for, you know what I’m saying. Here’s this guy hearing God. And what does he do? He finds her in California, flies out and says, “I had the most strange experience. I went to this pastor. He said, what is God saying.” And he meets her. They get remarried again together. They are now together walking in God, fulfilling. What happens in people’s minds, Sid, is they don’t say, stop. God is present in me. There is the Living God I live with. He speaks to me. We are the Body of Christ. We hear Him. We are so wired to hear God, it is easier for us to obey God than disobey Him.
SID: Now out of curiosity, now that you’ve made a number of changes, the changes were easy. What’s not of you, God? Out. So he’s made these changes. How many people would you say since you’ve made these changes have been saved? How many miracles? How many marriages restored? What would you say?
GARY: We see it constantly. We just had 750 people saved last month at our altars.
SID: You know, it’s much better to do it God’s way than your way.
GARY: Yeah, oh yeah.
SID: Okay. I want to find out what you taught your congregation so they can all hear God’s voice. Do you want to hear that? I do. Be right back.
Sid: We want everyone everywhere to partake of this new paradigm that God is about ready to do because there’s going to be such an outpouring of God’s Spirit on planet earth that the old wineskins are brittle, they won’t contain all of the glory. That’s why I am so excited about this previously unpublished manuscript, it’s still unpublished. I persuaded Pastor Robert Heidler to print this up and it’s called “The Messianic Church.” It has the goods, the history of how we got from something that was 100% Jewish, to something that traditional Jewish people feel is the opposite of Judaism and everything. You know what, when you look at it it appears to be the opposite. Pastor Robert Heidler I mean it’s almost outrageous it’s one of the greatest con jobs in history to take the church out of its natural setting, Jewish, and insert it into a pagan Gentile setting, pagan. I have to believe the reason this was done was to have a clear wall of separation between Jews and Christians for diabolical purposes.
Robert: Exactly. You know Paul says “In Christ that wall of separation is broken down” but when you look at the church today that wall has been resurrected and that was not God’s purpose.
Sid: Listen the master politician, Constantine, was able to salvage his empire by melding paganism and Christianity, and cutting out everything Biblically Jewish, even to the form of what we call the church. You were talking about that yesterday and there was a quote, we had to end a little too early from The Learning Channel. Would you repeat that?
Robert: Yes, in The Learning Channel they had a show called “Rome: The Power and The Glory.” They went through the rise of the Roman Empire in the fall, and the last show in the series was on the fall of the empire. They said this, “It’s interesting that imperial Rome is probably best preserved in the church it once persecuted.” He said “Look at a church and see what you see is the architecture of the imperial throne room. Sit in a church and what you hear is imperial court ceremony. Solemnity, the choir, and the hymns are derived from the ceremonies of the Roman Imperial Court.” I mean that’s a secular historian just looking factually saying “This is what you see in the church did not come from Jesus and the apostles; the forms of worship that are common in the church really came from a pagan Roman source.” It’s interesting one quote I have in the book, in the manuscript, from Constantine less than one year after his conversion, supposedly to Christianity. He made the following decree, he said “I am going to make plain to them what kind of worship is to be offered to God. What higher duty do I have as emperor than to cause all to offer to all Mighty God true worship, true religion, and due worship.” So here is a pagan emperor he looks at the worship of the church and it’s offensive to him. It’s very Jewish, and he says “We’ve got to teach the church a better way to worship God.”
Sid: Where did the separation come between the laity, the laymen, and the clergy, where did this come from?
Robert: Well I think it came from just what we’re talking about here with the church. You know moving the church from the house church into the basilica church’s that Constantine made, it made a whole new pattern for church life. In the house church everyone participated, everyone was encouraged to know the word, and to minister. When you move it into a basilica you have a throne at the front for the bishop, and you have the clergy that do all the rituals and the ministries. Out in the congregation people just come and sit and observe. It’s interesting we talked about Constantine bringing Mithraism into Christianity. In the early church every believer was supposed to know how to minister, they were supposed to know the word, they were gifted by God to do the things of God. Mithraism was mystery religion, and only the initiated only the priests were allowed to know the sacred truths, and everyone else was just to come and observe the truths in ignorance. So Constantine really made that shift where by the Middle Ages Bibles were written a language people didn’t know and were chained to the pulpit where they couldn’t be read.
Robert: Because they did not want the common people to know the word of God, to know how to minister. It became… it was really the pattern that Constantine had put in where you have a clergy that knew the hidden sacred truths; people would come and observe and take part in the rituals hoping to receive some spiritual benefit from it.
Sid: You know I’m looking through your manuscript right now, and I really want to read your description of a visit to an early church which was a house church, let me read this. “As we walk through the door you look across the entrance into the large open courtyard of the home. There appears to be some kind of a party going on. Some of the people are playing flutes, lyres, and tambourines while others are singing, dancing and clapping their hands. You immediately look around to make sure you’ve come into the right house as you listen to the words. However, you realize that this is the right place for the words of the songs are words of praise to Jesus. These people are overflowing with joy because they’ve come to know the living God. What you are witnessing is the way the early church praised God. This type of worship is foreign to much of the church today, but from the Biblical and historical records this is what the worship in the early church was like. It was a free and joyful celebration with a great deal of singing and dancing. Most church services would begin with the people getting in a ring, or several concentric rings, and dancing Jewish style ring dances, like the Hora.” It says “There’s a great deal of singing and dancing and rejoicing in the Lord. As the songs slow down a little many people get down on their knees before the Lord, most are lifting up hands to Him, a tremendous sense of the Lord’s presence fills the courtyard. During the church’s praise and worship there are spontaneous shouts of praise, some shout ‘Amen!’ to voice their agreement with what others have said. As we enter into the worship we’re overwhelmed by the love and acceptance of the people. After much singing and dancing food is brought out people find their seats to prepare for the meal. We’re surprised to see people eating a meal in the middle of a church service, but this is described by Paul in 1st Corinthians, as well as by Jude and Peter. This shared weekly meal is called the ‘Love Feasts’ or ‘Agape.’ To begin the meal one of the leaders stands with a cup blesses the Lord and passes it around so each one can drink from it. He then picks up a loaf of bread and offer thanks. It’s also passed from person to person, this is the Lord’s supper in its original context. The meal is joyful centered on devotion to the Lord. As they eat the believers talk about the things of God, share testimonies, and recite and discuss scripture, sing praises to the Lord. You’re impressed that while very few have personal copies of any Biblical books most of those present appear to have large portions of the Bible memorized. After the meal ends worship continues till at some point a change begins to take place. There’s a subtle shift in the atmosphere, the air seems to thicken, a tangible sense of the presence of God comes and rest in the place.” Now I’m going to stop right here Robert, but that’s the point where it’s like heaven touches earth.
Sid: And miracles break out… you know I’m reminded of this young generation that we have that was raised in the church is leaving the church in droves. This young generation we have basically their not even born again anymore. What if they had been raised in this kind of environment?
Robert: Yes, yes. What I see here Sid, what you just described is the wineskin that God created to the hold the new wine. So often we hold up to Him a pagan wineskin and say “Lord we want Your Spirit” but when He pours a Spirit it can’t hold in what He wants to pour out.
Sid: Mishpochah, God is about ready to bring the Biblical Jewish roots, not the rabbinical roots, not a religious spirit of “Do this or you’re not saved” but a freedom like the church has not witnessed. We will not lose this next generation which might be the last generation before the Messiah comes. You know I’m reading from your manuscript right here and it says “Everyone who studies the early church is amazed at its phenomenal growth. Some historians estimate by the end of the 3rd century half of the population of the Roman Empire had converted to Christianity. Why was this tremendous growth, and then it was just cut off at the roots.
SID: When I was a young Jewish believer in the Messiah, I was involved in starting something I had no idea, a few of us, we knew nothing. But we felt we wanted a congregation for Jewish people where we would where we used to, where we were raised with in the synagogue. And so we started one of the first modern Messianic Jewish congregations in America. And shortly, I realized, I was the leader at the time, I knew nothing. So we got a wonderful Messianic Jewish rabbi that did something unusual. He proved that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah and never used the New Testament. He always spoke from the Jewish Scriptures, the Old Covenant. Now my wife was raised Southern Baptist, got to college, atheistic professors and whatever faith she had, zip, out the door. She never called herself an atheist. Just in case, she called herself an agnostic. She had a little, maybe there is a God. I’m not going to call myself an atheist. Well when we got married, I insisted she convert to orthodox Judaism. So you might say she was a Southern Baptist, agnostic, orthodox Jew. Right? But kicking and screaming, she would go to our Messianic Jewish congregation and she would hear something that was taken for granted among gentile Christians. You believe because your parents believe. You believe because you’ve been told that since you were so little. Then what happens when you get to college and into the world, you have all this doubt that comes and surfaces, and you’re surrounded with doubt and unbelief. And so she heard, for the first time, why the Bible is from God. It’s not a given. You have to understand why the Bible is from God, because if it’s not from God then there is no foundation in Judaism or Christianity, or anything else. Then that same Bible proves, there are predictions in it called prophecies, that Jesus is the Messiah. And she came to a point where one day she said, “I have no choice. I have to believe.” Now when I got saved, I was very prominent. There was an article in a major Washington, D.C. newspaper. And I have to tell you, coming from an orthodox Jewish background, my father was horrified that, number one, I was a believer in the Messiah, Jesus, and number two, I was outspoken about it. But one day, he said, “Okay, I want you to tell me why Jesus is the Messiah.” Oh, I’ve been waiting for this day for so long. And I have to tell you, I was praying that he would come to know the Messiah. My mother who loved me would try to protect me, you know, good Jewish mother. And she said, “Your dad will never become a believer in that Jesus.” She just didn’t want me to be left down, you know. And I said to her, I remember saying to her, “You’re wrong. He will.” You know why? I have been saying it for so long that I began to believe it. There was no evidence to my natural lies. If you knew my dad, none whatsoever. Orthodox Jew born in Poland, saw everything Hitler did, you know, the whole nine yards. No way he was going to believe. But something in me said, I know my father is going to be a believer in the Messiah. So I got a Tanakh, that’s a Jewish copy of the Jewish Scriptures. And the Tanakh is the same as a Christian Old Testament, except the books are in a slightly different order and the verses could be one ahead or one behind. Otherwise, it’s virtually the same as a Christian Old Testament. And I said, “Dad, did you know there are predictions about our Jewish people and that there are thousands of them, past, present and future, of the Jewish people, and they all come true, I mean, to the decimal point.” He said, “No, I didn’t know that.” I said, “Let me show you a few of them.” God said in Deuteronomy 28, “We would be the most blessed people on the face of this earth if we would follow Moses and the Torah”. But if not, we would lose our temple, we did. We would lose our city, Jerusalem, we did. We’d be scattered to the four corners of the earth, we were. Whatever country we would go to we would be persecuted in. You see how precise and specific this is? But there’s more. And I’ll be right back in a moment.
SID: Hello. Sid Roth here. Welcome to my world where it’s naturally supernatural. My guest had an open vision in Israel seeing all of history and God speaking to people, and people either not hearing his voice or being disobedient, but then doing it, as Frank Sinatra says, my own way. And the sad thing was their works, their good works were burned with fire. Most of their works burned with fire. If you cannot hear God’s voice, you won’t do what God wants you to do. No matter what happens with this world, and we’re at the wrap-up right now, and those that are not on a firm foundation, once this world, once more is going to shake, will not stand. But those that can hear God’s voice, it’s going to be the most exciting time of your life. Now Dr. Gary Whetstone, I’m taking you back to 2005, my favorite of favorite cities on the planet, Jerusalem.
SID: You’re doing a little commercial for your next tour to Israel. You’re there with your wife and something happened that you did not bargain for. Tell me about it.
GARY: The cameras are rolling. Faye is standing next to me. I’m looking over at the old city of the Eastern Wall, and all of a sudden, everything vanished. The old city, the earth vanished, and I’m standing, and I’m watching humanity pass before my eyes. As I’m in the presence of God it felt like days, it felt like weeks. It was just like I was in there years. I had no idea of time. And time after time was unfolding, but it was like God was speaking to the masses and then individually to every person, “Hear my voice.” And then I watched people that I knew and I’m shocked because I’m watching them come out of the masses and God speaking to people I knew, ministers that I knew, “Hear my voice.” And I watched them from childhood times, young adulthood growing up, hearing, doing what God said. And then I watched them going off because they heard the voice of someone else, someone else telling them how to market, how to do this, how to do that, how to present something this way, that way. And as they went off they went on in and everything burned that God did not offer. As I watched people that heard God and what they obeyed God, everything they obeyed in God went forward into glory and nothing burned. But everything that God didn’t say, everything He didn’t say burned.
SID: Now you said that you saw people that you knew.
SID: And you saw their great majestic works that looked good. So all of society burned. It might have started with, God, but it finished with them. Did you go to some of these people? Tell me one you went to.
GARY: One I went to specifically, because I saw just what they were building, burned. And I went to the person. I said, “This is what I watched.” And the person hung their head and they said, “Gary, if I could change it I would now.” I said, “Change what?” They said, “Change I have finances coming into the ministry. If I could change our money model I’d change it today.” I said, “Then why don’t you change it? I mean, why would you not do what God is saying?”
SID: I would like to toss the whole thing out if I found out that was me.
GARY: You know, sometimes I watch people build an engine, and the supply line of that engine, they cannot give up because the engine is the success. Where the success really is doing what God says. It’s not what man values. It’s not what man appreciates. It’s not what man says is successful. The greatest shock of this, as I watched people that I knew was when I saw myself, and I watched my life, childhood. You know, I got born again in a mental hospital and it’s a miracle God even got to me, but He did.
SID: It’s one of the most amazing testimonies I’ve ever, ever heard. He was all set to have an electronic lobotomy. He would never been sane the rest of his life and he heard God’s voice. But so, God’s had his hand on you for a long time.
GARY: He’s speaking to me. I watched my voice when God spoke to me. I’m going through a divorce with my wife. And God spoke to me, “Faye is your wife.” I said, “But God, I’m divorced from her.” This was what I was experiencing. I’m watching my life. I saw how God restored our marriage. We got remarried again, as you know. And I’m watching when God spoke to me, “Go into business.” But I made decisions that went off course and I built businesses because in my mind, and I watched this, I thought I could create enough money that I could obey God. And that wasn’t God’s thought.
SID: He didn’t need that. He did not need your stinking money.
GARY: He doesn’t. God is not in deficit. And God spoke to me. And then I saw me in ministry. And I saw when I was listening to the voices of marketers, people knowing how to do things, people knowing how to manipulate people. And I watched how I was listening. And God stopped division cold. It just shut down. And He said, “If you do not hear my voice and obey my voice I will take the candle from the candlestick and I’ll blow out the light.” And the shock of that reality shook me to the core of my being. And I mean, I was—
SID: Gary made major, major changes and you are going to make major changes as a result of hearing the voice of God. We’ll be right back.
Sid: I have on the telephone Pastor Robert Heidler, pastor of Glory of Zion Outreach Center in Denton, Texas. I just got a hold of an unpublished manuscript and I am so anxious for you to get this information all well footnoted. Pastor Heidler is a graduate, has a Master’s, as a matter of fact, from Dallas Theological Seminary. It’s the missing ingredients… I have to tell you Robert I read some things in here that maybe I should have known, but I didn’t know. It’s like the Spirit of God was showing me things, and now you’ve got the documentation of what God was showing. For instance, we know that the first church, and you document it so well in “The Messianic Church” had all the Biblical roots, Jewish roots, were in the first church. How do we know this for sure?
Robert: Well first of all because that’s the only kind of church they knew. I mean they were the apostles that planted the church were Messianic Jews, they were Jews who came to know Yeshua as their Messiah. As you study the history of the church for the first 3 or 4 centuries, that was the kind of Christianity that they practiced.
Sid: Wait a second. How do you attend one of the finest Biblical colleges in the United States, and not know what you know inside this manuscript today? How is it that our best scholars don’t know this today? How could things get so twisted?
Robert: Well it’s real interesting because for a thousand years during the Dark Ages, the church really had lost everything that it had had. In the Protestant Reformation…
Sid: You know to me one of the greatest evidences that there’s a God, is that not only did we come out of the Dark Ages, but we have Christianity today.
Robert: Yeah, but it’s when most writers have never gone back to study what the early church was like. One of my favorite overviews of church history is Eerdmans’ Handbook to the History of Christianity, and it’s a wonderful study of church history. When it talks about the relationship of the church to the Jews, it devotes one sentence to it out of 656, and it just assumes that was not an important part of the church’s life. Yet, when you read the early sources you find it was a very important part. It was very common to the third and fourth centuries for Christians to celebrate the Biblical feasts; to celebrate Shabbat. One thing that surprised me when I began to read is it was very common in the first few centuries for the Christians to really have two holy days. They celebrated Shabbat, to celebrate the God of creation who created the earth and rested, but then they celebrated Sunday as the day of the resurrection of Messiah. They didn’t see anything funny with doing that.
Sid: By the way, they did not celebrate on a Sunday morning did they?
Robert: No! Although sometimes they started on Saturday night and they were still going on Sunday morning.
Sid: [Laughing] Yeah, you mean it was ruckus wild party?
Sid: The reason you point out in your manuscript that most of them did not worship on Sunday morning is Sunday, during the day, was a work day
Robert: Hmm. Yes it was just not a day off for most people.
Sid: You know I have read that the early church celebrated the resurrection on Sunday, but most Christians are really not aware of how it started. I think they put a good Biblical meaning, spin on it if you will, but really there was a dividing line on the vibrant church and the dead the church. I think it began with someone by the name of Constantine, tell me about him.
Robert: He was a very interesting man. The church had been through a time of severe persecution, as a matter of fact, probably the 25 years before Constantine was the most intense persecution the church ever had. It was called the “Age of the Martyrs.” Constantine was a pagan, he was a worshipper of the pagan sun god Mithras. He was fighting with a rival Maxentius to take the throne of the Roman Empire. He was sort of frightened going into the battle because he had heard that Maxentius was a master of occult arts. So he prayed to his god, the pagan sun god Mithras, and prayed for strength and victory. He reported that when he prayed he saw a flaming cross in the sky next to the sun, and heard the words “Conquered by this.” So he went into battle, he won the battle, and he came to the throne of the Roman Empire announcing that he was now a follower of Christ, and made the cross his symbol, and the church was just thrilled with that. Persecution ended, great blessing was poured out on the church, but the problem was he didn’t seem to really know who Jesus was. Constantine hated the Jews, he didn’t see Jesus as the Son of the Jewish Yahweh, but he really evidently saw Jesus as a manifestation of the pagan sun god Mithras. So he began to… in exchange for the ending of the persecution, he asked the church to honor him as the head of the church, and to allow him to begin to make some changes in the church that he called the Council of Nicaea. Basically that was where he outlawed the celebrating of Biblical feasts, he brought pagan feasts into the church…
Sid: Now why did he hate things Jewish?
Robert: Well as a Roman Emperor you know the Jews had rebelled against Rome twice. So for the Romans the Jews were a conquered people, hostile to Rome, that was how they were described. So he really saw the Jews as enemies, he didn’t want anything to do with them.
Sid: Yes, but how did the Christians accept paganism coming into their worship?
Robert: That’s a good question. I think in the course of the book here, the manuscript, I go into a lot of that. They didn’t accept it very easily. As a matter of fact, they were still passing decrees in church councils for 400 or 500 years after this trying to stamp out the practice of Biblical feasts, and Shabbats, and things like that.
Sid: So you’re saying even after Constantine for 400 or 500 years we know from the records there were real Christians that still tried to hang on to their Biblical Jewish roots.
Robert: Exactly. It’s interesting, and I give a lot of the council decrees in the manuscript. In the Council of Antioch in 345 which is 20 years after Constantine made his decrees, said “Any bishop, presbyter, or deacon who will dare after this decree to celebrate Passover with the Jews let them be anathema from the church.” Basically he says “No one else in the church is allowed to talk to them.” The Council of Laodicea says the same thing in 365, then the Council of Ogday France in 506, council after council issuing harsh punishments and decrees if the church doesn’t stop celebrating its Jewish festivals. That’s just a picture of the commitment the church had to celebrating the Biblical feasts and festivals.
Sid: Well let’s just kind of, for those aren’t initiated in this. How did we go from Passover, which I might add in the King James Bible it literally translates from the Greek, the clear Greek word that means Passover to Easter? I mean that was an intentional mistranslation. How did we get from Passover, which we know the first church celebrated the resurrection of Jesus, to Easter?
Robert: Well that was Constantine at the Council of Nicaea. He said “This is not right that the church should celebrate a Jewish holiday, a Jewish feast.” Basically he outlawed it. He reset the date for celebration of Jesus’ resurrection to the time of the holiday the Romans already celebrated which was the spring fertility festival. The festival was in honor of the goddess Ishtar, or Eostre, and her symbol was the egg. It was a very popular festival for the Romans. So he took the celebration of the resurrection out of the Biblical context of Passover, put it in the context of a pagan fertility goddess celebration. In the King James, in the English speaking world we didn’t even change the name. If you look up the word Easter in any dictionary it will say that is from the name of a pagan fertility goddess. So Christian’s all over the English speaking world will come up to the time of celebrating the resurrection of Jesus, and basically say “We are going to celebrate Easter,” which is the name of a pagan goddess.
Sid: And where in the Bible does it talk about celebrating the birth of Jesus, Christmas?
Robert: Well it never does. I think… you know I don’t mind Christians celebrating Christmas.
Sid: No, and I hope people aren’t getting the wrong message from our discussion Robert because… you know there’s nothing wrong with knowing the facts.
Robert: Exactly. You know I tell our congregation I am so thankful we have a time in our culture where it is acceptable for people talk about the birth of Jesus, and talk about who Jesus was.
SID: So my friend, young kid, is traveling with William Freeman. He’s seeing miracles. Cancer, you can’t even stand in this man’s presence. So he said, I’m going to do the same thing, “I’m going to seek God.” And you spent hours seeking God and what happened?
DON: The initial action of bowing on my knees, praying after hours, nothing seen was happening. And I got up and sat on the altar, opened my Bible to Philippians, Chapter 2, where the Bible says, “God has highly exalted Jesus and given him the name above every name in Heaven, Earth and Hell.” And I, the revelation of the power of Jesus’ name became awesome to me. And it was the greatest name of things in Heaven and Earth and under the earth, and I was just ready and primed to meet someone who could fill that category.
SID: In other words, what happened is God was beginning to show him that he didn’t need a visitation from an angel. He just needed to believe God’s Word. So he began believing God’s Word. And you pray for a nine-year-old boy who had a brain tumor.
DON: Right. Yes, this happened in Joplin, Missouri, where Grandma Davis called me. She said, “I know you have been with Brother Freeman and I believe you can come and pray for my grandson. He’s coming this weekend. He’ll be with us and all his father is bringing in. And we want you to come and pray for this boy. He’s given up to die, no hope.” And it was just like a fire in my belly. I had to go and minister to that boy, to use His authority that I received in this revelation. And I laid my hands on the boy, cursed the brain tumor in Jesus’ name and commanded it to depart. There was no obvious or immediate change by any appearance. But when the parents took their son back to the Barnes Hospital in St. Louis for a new examination, they found out that the brain tumors were all gone. And that was a testimony that stood the test of time, for the boy grew up and became a father and it was a wonderful result. Well that was just the beginning of my ministering.
SID: Tell me about the man…. Now get this, he prayed for a man that had his kneecap removed. Tell me about him.
DON: Yes. His name, he came up in the prayer line, hobbling, and I asked him, “What do you want?” He said he want to be prayed for. And I said, “What’s your name?” He said, “Lucky Metz.” And I said, “Lucky, you haven’t been very lucky, have you?” And he explained to me, 22 years before he had been in an accident and his kneecap had to be removed surgically. For 22 years, he had no kneecap. And so I said, “Well the first thing to take care of, are you a born-again Christian?” And he said, “No, I’m not.” And I said, “I’d like to encourage you to receive Jesus.” I said, “You can go to Heaven without a kneecap, but you can never enter there without a relationship to Jesus Christ.” And he responded. And I led him a sinners prayer and he received Christ by faith. And I said, “Now the same Lord who has saved your soul has been your great physician.” So I laid hands upon that place where the kneecap had been and in Jesus’ name spoke what I call a creative miracle in his name, the wonderful name of Jesus. And when he lifted up his left leg he had a new kneecap…totally created a kneecap.
SID: Now that is normal. That is what it’s supposed to be. Now Don, do you believe that anyone that understands the Word of God in reference to healing can do the same things that you do?
DON: I think anyone who will have confidence in the authority of Jesus’ name, just like Peter and John did at the gate, and the scripture says, “In his name, through faith, in his name has made this man strong whom you see and know. Yea the faith which is by him has given this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.” If anyone will embrace the six specific scriptures in John 14, 15, 16, where Jesus gave authority for us to speak his name, and thank God, that name itself is the great healer and the device of God, as it were, to minister miracles. And he said these signs shall follow, not just the apostles or the preachers, the evangelists, but these signs shall follow the believers. In my name they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover.” And I’ve seen that demonstrated many times for years over and over, thousands of times, I’m sure over the span of all these years. But any believer who will simply take the authority. And the disciples prayed when they met together, “Lord, grant to us your service that with all boldness we make speak your word by stretching forth to heal and the signs and wonders may be done in Jesus’ name.” What an awesome prayer I prayed almost every day of my life since that time the revelation came. And what was the result of that? The Bible says that, “When they had prayed they were filled with the Holy Spirit and they began to speak the Word of God with boldness.” That is what I believe any person who will let the Lord give them that holy boldness and dare to speak the name of Jesus with authority. It’s the authority of his name is what brings the healings and miracles.
SID: What caused you to realize this truth? Something, it exploded in you. You believe that more than anything else. What caused that belief in you?
DON: It was just the working of the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit, the great teacher of the body, and I embraced that truth and it just burned in my spirit now. I’ve gone to India 24 times, as well as God has sent me to 56 nations. And every nation I’ve gone it’s been the same result. I always prepare my heart by the Word of God in the name of Jesus. And I know that when I step out and minister to the masses of people, usually the crowds are tens of thousands in India, and in the mass crowds impossible to lay hands on them all. So I simply speak the authority of Jesus’ name. I mean, it’s with such confidence. It’s his name above every name.
SID: You know the authority of the name of Jesus is not only so you can pray for other people, but it’s also so you can be totally whole. And God spoke to me that, two things. Number one, when we come back I’m going to have Don Gossett pray a prayer of faith for you. You’ve never heard a prayer of faith like he’s going to pray for you, and you’re going to be healed. But he also told me the second thing that many of you that have pains in your bones, arthritis, any type of pain in your bones throughout your whole body, the healing river of Jesus is moving on you right now.
SID: Now Apostle Maldonado told me that early this morning he was praying, and God gave him instructions on great miracles that are going to happen. But before that, we hear a phrase, “The Kingdom of God.” Tell me what that means.
APOSTLE MALDONADO: You know, when Jesus taught about the Our Father prayer, at the end of that prayer he said, “Yours is the Kingdom and the power, and the glory.” I call it the three realms of God. Well the Kingdom is the government of Heaven. The power is the ability of Heaven and the Glory is the atmosphere of Heaven, like what we feel now. So every time we preach the government, God has to confirm it with power. Any way you see it power is in the middle. The question is if we preach the kingdom, where is the power? If we preach the kingdom, where is the atmosphere of Heaven? When Jesus, I want you to pray this way, and let they said, “Let your kingdom come and let your will be done as it is in Heaven.” In Heaven, there’s no recession. In Heaven, there’s no sickness. In other words, our moral, our pattern here, any believer can bring Heaven on Earth now. So Kingdom is the government of God that we have delegated by Jesus. When Jesus came, he brought the Kingdom. He said, the Kingdom is within you, is in you. Any believer can bring the Kingdom here on Earth. If you go to pray for a person with cancer, you go in Jesus’ name. There’s no cancer in Heaven. That is my pattern. I will bring Heaven on Earth right now. If you believe it, it will happen.
SID: Well let’s, I want you to give me an example of that. There was this youth pastor that got the revelation of the resurrection, and he had a small youth group, and it grew. You’re telling me it grew to something like 4000 once he got this revelation.
APOSTLE MALDONADO: Well that’s the pattern, Sid. And every minister that comes in contact with our minister, that’s the pattern. This youth pastor came. He was activated through watching my teaching and reading my books. So he was so touched, and he went back into his church, and started activating the young people. It went to 4000 kids.
SID: Now one of the kids, a 12-year-old, his mother dies.
APOSTLE MALDONADO: Yes.
SID: The first thing a 12-year-old would think when their mother dies is not, God, I want my mother to come back to life. But he did. So he calls the wife of the youth pastor. And what happens?
APOSTLE MALDONADO: And she was in the movie, as a matter of fact. She was not in prayer. She was watching a movie. And she got the call, and said, “Who’s this?” “My mother just died. The doctors came. They checked. She’s dead.” And she said, “Well let me apply what I learned with Apostle Maldonado.” So she rebuked the spirit of death and the mother came back to life.
SID: Now that is normal. I pray that the whole world would become normal. For instance, you have verified miracles of people that have died and come back to life. But what’s more exciting to me than those verified miracles that you’ve had is your most recent School in the Supernatural. Tell me how many.
APOSTLE MALDONADO: We got 2500 people came into the School of Supernatural, foreign countries, large churches, small churches, big churches, business people, normal regular believers came into the school. And I took testimony. I said, “I’ve been teaching you how to walk in the supernatural.” I bring testimony. And 25 of those people came to testify. They got 25 people raised from the dead. And I’m very careful when I say that. I say, well, give me the documents. Where are the papers? And they brought out the documents saying, we have seen it in India, we saw it in South America, we’ve seen it in America. I mean, this should be normal. One of the believers, 30 days, had been saved for 30 days, and his boss fell from 16-20 feet, fell on the floor and he’s dead. Paramedics came, checked him out, and they said, “Don’t touch him. He’s dead.” So he goes, “Can you allow me to pray.” And just 30 days in my church. But he said, Pastor was teaching about rebuking the death of the people,” and he said, “Let me pray for him.” He rebuked the spirit of death and the man came back to life. Now the man got saved, went last week into baptism, water baptism, and both came and are being trained now to do miracles.
SID: That’s the way it supposed to be. Now we’re coming into a time in the history of Planet Earth where money isn’t going to be worth anything, where fear is going to be rampant. People, you think there is unemployment now, you haven’t seen anything yet. But that is not the government of God. Tell me about Dr. Gamel.
APOSTLE MALDONADO: Dr. Gamel, what I’m saying, when you walk in the power of the Kingdom and the resurrection you will see all kinds of miracles. Dr. Gamel is one of my Cuban doctors that came from Cuba, and he went me to Argentina. And being there the Lord said to me, “I will do a supernatural provision. I will bring supernatural provision now.” So I just declared it. And there’s some crazy people in the audience and they said, I got it, I receive it, you know. There’s some people that say, let me analyze it, let me. And there are some crazy people like you. We got some people that believe. We got the miracle. If you’re watching right now. So the doctor said, I believe he took some money from his house, took some out from the box in the house and paid the ticket to go to Argentina. But he said, “This is the rent. I need to pay my rent with this money.” So when I declared the supernatural provision, so he said, “Lord, you know, I did an effort to come here, because I didn’t have the money.” So he said, “Lord, you do something.” So he called his wife and said, “Let’s believe.” When he came back from Argentina, he told his wife, “Go over there and check.” So when they went back to the little box they found $11,200.
SID: Now I have to repent. I have to repent. I said I would turn him loose to teach. Next segment he will teach and you will receive the revelation.
SID: Hello. Sid Roth here. Welcome to my world where it’s naturally supernatural. I just love breathing in the rarified air of Heaven. You know, in the 1940s and 1950s, God touched men and women by the Spirit of God, and they had tent meetings all over the United States, major miracles happening. But they made a mistake. They did not teach their generation how they can do what these miracle ministries were doing. They were kind of on a pedestal. But you see, anything they can do, if they had taught their generation, anyone could do, because it’s God that does the miracles. So my guest was a teenager and was mentored by some of the great healing evangelists of the ’40s and ’50s. And I can tell you he wants to mentor you so you can do anything these great miracle ministries did. Could you picture going into a restaurant and seeing a waitress limp a little bit and say, “Can I pray for you?” And seeing her leg straighten out and everyone in the restaurant is listening more than they listen to that advertisement for a stockbroker. And then you stand on the table, well maybe you might not, stand on the table and proclaim the Gospel. How would you like to be able to do that? Well you’re going to be equipped. My guest was born and raised in a home where his parents did not know God. But as a young man, he had an encounter with God. Then at 17, he had an all-night visitation from God in which he was called to proclaim the Gospel throughout the whole world. So he goes to his dad who’s a non-believer, and he says, “Dad, have I got good news.” Remember, his father doesn’t believe in God. And he really put cold water on you, Don, and he said, “You can’t preach the Gospel. You stutter.” And Don found out, first of all, he knew God told him to do it. And so he stood on scriptures and God took the stuttering away from him. That was probably his first miracle. But what about his parents? Now your mom was an invalid. What was wrong with her?
DON: She had a series of terrible conditions that had gripped her body and she had surgery without success, and it released her into being what I call a semi-invalid, where she had limitations in walking and being free from pain and distress.
SID: Okay. So Don convinces his mother to get healed because she heard about one of these men that had a great miracle ministry, William Freeman. As a matter of fact, Freeman had a visitation from an angel. Tell me about that.
DON: Yes he did. He was pastor of a church. He had a great hunger for God. He had worked on the railroad. He was a brakeman and he resigned that to become a full time pastor. And he made a commitment to God, “Lord, when I worked on the railroad eight hours a day I was there. But now that I’m not on the railroad, I want to devote those eight hours to prayer.” And I’ve known very few people who ever had such a commitment. Now I don’t know entirely how long he maintained that, but it was a very vital part of his life. And then one evening as he was in his church study, he just lay himself on the floor meeting God and suddenly the room illumined. It was partly dark and illumined with bright light, and he looked up and there stood a man. And the man said, “I am an angel of the Lord sent by God to give you a gift of healing. You are to go and stretch forth your hands to bring healing to the people. If you can get them to only believe not one thing will stand before you, not even cancer. There’s a great sweeping suffering in the land. There must be an awakening because Jesus is coming soon.”
SID: Okay. Your mother went to this meeting. What happened to her?
DON: When she saw what the Lord was doing and hearing the testimony of the people who had been healed, she received Christ of course as her savior. It was the first great miracle. And then she got in that prayer line and we waited for him to lay her hands on her, “In the name of Jesus, I rebuke the spirits of infirmity that bind your life.” My mother was instantaneously healed. It was a miracle of great delight. And when she came off the platform, I as an 18-year-old young man, I raced down the aisle to meet her and embraced her, and tears were pouring down her face. And she said, “Don, I’m healed. I’m free of pain.” And that was a witness that was to affect, not only my alcoholic dad, but all of my family. They saw the reality of Jesus. He’s alive today. And one by one, every member of my family became a born-again Christian.
SID: Well you know something? I believe, we Jewish people have a Hebrew word, mishpochah, means family. And I believe it’s God’s intent that the Passover blood is over the door post, and it says in Exodus, “A lamb for a house.” Now Don was mentored by Freeman. He traveled with him and he said, “I wonder if I see God if maybe an angel will come to me and then I can have these great miracles.” We’ll find out what happened to him. Be right back.
SID: Hello. Sid Roth here. Welcome to my world where it’s naturally supernatural. My guest heard the audible voice of God and this is what God told him: “Teach my people how to operate in the supernatural.” And he has done this all over the world. But the last time I picked up the phone and I spoke with him there was an increase, I mean a tangible increase in the presence of God. And I said, “What is going on with you? Why has the presence of God just so dramatically increased?” And he said, “I’ve been teaching a revelation that very few of God’s people understand that will catapult you into doing the same things and even greater than what Jesus did.” Do you want to hear that? Now most people that have been taught of what the Bible says about Jesus’ death understand the cross and they must understand the cross. Why? Because your sins were atoned for. But my guest has been emphasizing a different aspect and he’s been seeing so many miracles happen. For instance, Apostle Maldonado, your wife heard the teaching, the revelation you received, and prayed for a woman that had her breast removed. Tell me about that.
APOSTLE MALDONADO: This woman came to one of her conferences in Argentina and actually, my wife was coming out of the meeting. She was in a hurry and this woman, one of her breasts had been removed because of cancer. So my wife said, “Be healed in Jesus name” and left. And the woman said, “Well, I need a longer prayer.”
SID: Where’s the religious…?
APOSTLE MALDONADO: As a matter of fact, she got mad. She got mad. She went home. Her husband was praying and saying, “God, I want my wife to have a new breast.” And one time she got up, and she was changing her bra, and suddenly her husband saw it first. And her husband said, “Watch! You got a new breast!” So the Lord grew back her breast.
SID: Listen, when you get this revelation, what Jesus said is going to be true in your life when you capture this revelation, there will be nothing impossible for you. Tell me the revelation that God explained to you.
APOSTLE MALDONADO: This is what it is. The majority of the church has gone into the cross. The cross is where we receive forgiveness of sin. Now that’s what the church is now, the majority of the church. Now they have not made the transition from the cross to the resurrection. And the resurrection, the cross is where you receive forgiveness of sin. The resurrection is where you enter into power. The cross is a historical fact. The cross is a historical fact. The resurrection must be revealed in the now. The cross—
SID: The Gospel is not in word only, but in power. And he’s giving you the revelation for the power.
APOSTLE MALDONADO: The cross is the demonstration of love. The resurrection is the demonstration of his power. So we must go into demonstration of his power. So that explains why the church doesn’t have power, because we got beautiful Christians. They love God. They have received forgiveness of sin. But what is the power if we talk about a risen Christ, we’re taking about risen Christ, it takes the Holy Spirit to reveal that historical fact. It is a fact. Jesus died on the cross. Everybody knows that. Most of the religious understand and they know, oh yeah, Jesus died. They know that. But getting into the power we must have the revelation in the now. And that is the Holy Spirit that wants to speak to those people that are watching right now. If you want to get into demonstration of the power of the resurrection, everything will come alive. Your dreams will come alive. Your vision will come alive. Your marriage will come alive. Everything what you do. In other words, the power of the resurrection is not only words, is not only something well for the physical body. Even though we see miracles, creative miracles where there’s no organs, God will create one, but it’s beyond that. It can be your marriage. It can be your business. Something will come alive when you get into that revelation. And what do I need? You need to be hungry. You need to be thirsty. God’s power is here now and it can be demonstrated for any believer that believes.
SID: Now why is the supernatural so important?
APOSTLE MALDONADO: The supernatural is so important because there is impossible things that will come into our life.
SID: Especially the age we’re living in now.
APOSTLE MALDONADO: Right. You know, one of these days I was praying and the Lord said, “I want you to tell the church to pray for national miracles.” And I said, “God, why?” And He said, “The national crisis that is coming upon this nation will take national miracles.” And supernatural in America we got many options. And when you got many options, you don’t commit to anything to believe anything because you got different options. The supernatural is so important because there are so many things, impossible circumstances of men that will never overcome it. You will never overcome it by natural means. You need supernatural means. Second, the Bible says when you bring the Kingdom, the people of Israel was established in the land by supernatural means, every miracle. It took miracles to stay in the land. If you want to advance the Kingdom, if you want to expand the Kingdom, if you want to do something for God, we need to establish by supernatural means.
SID: What has the church substituted for the supernatural?
APOSTLE MALDONADO: There is substitution. Entertainment substituted worship, charisma substituting the anointing. And I can give you a list. Faith has been supplanted by reason. Today we don’t do anything unless we have understanding. If you go to the scripture, every act of miracle of God, it cannot be explained. That’s what supernatural means, something that cannot be explained. It is beyond your head. It is beyond your reason. If you want to receive your miracle now you need to disconnect your head. And your reason has its place. I’m not saying you’re stupid, that we have to be stupid. That’s not what I’m saying. But you can’t get into the supernatural, you cannot move in the supernatural by the reason.
SID: Okay. I am going to turn Apostle Maldonado loose to teach you the revelation of the resurrection. Do you want that?
SID: There is such an explosion in this place and in your home of the miraculous. I don’t know what’s wrong with the muzzle. But there’s a muzzle about right here that is something is wrong with it, it’s being healed right now. Here’s a truth that Dr. Derrick Prince, who now is in Heaven, taught me. And once you understand this, you understand a lot of the Bible and lot of current events. God Himself will judge Israel for sin. But God uses Israel to judge the nations for sin. “He that touches Israel,” the Living Bible says in Zachariah, “is the same as someone that pokes their finger in God’s eye.” No, don’t be stupid, nations. God says, in Genesis 12:3, same thing I just said, “I, God, will bless those who bless the Jewish people. I, God, will curse those who curse the Jewish people.” It couldn’t have been plainer. Yes it is. Obadiah 1:15 is even plainer. Listen to this. “As you have done to Israel, so it will be done to you.” But Sid, that’s Old Testament. Ha! It’s the only Bible the first church had. Give me a break. They did pretty good. They got you here. They got you here, you know. So I’m going to give you a New Testament reference. That was to set you up for this. Matthew 25:40, “And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly I say to you, in as much as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren,'” this is Jesus speaking, “As you have done unto one of the least of these my brethren.” I looked the word up in the Greek. “Brethren”, it means “from the womb,” the Jewish people. “As you’ve done unto one of the least of the Jewish people, you did it to me.” Let’s get this straight. We’re about ready to see the devil’s worst nightmare. You want to see that? I do. I want to see it. Ephesians, Chapter 2, Verse 14 and 15, “For he himself is our peace who has made both,” that’s Jew and Gentile, “both one and has broken down the middle wall of separation so as to create in himself one new man from the two, thus making peace.” I told you “peace” is shalom, thus making completeness. As if to say, without the Jew and gentle together to make completeness there’s an incompleteness. As if to say, the Jewish person that believes in the Messiah is incomplete without the Gentile person that believes in the Messiah. And when the two come together as one new man, one new humanity. This is what Paul says, he is beside himself in that same second chapter of Ephesians, the 18th Verse, “In whom you are built together into a habitation of God by the spirit.” In other words, a full habitation. Maybe this is what the Messiah meant when he said, “When this one new man occurs,” he didn’t use that terminology, but he said, “Time is occurring that you will do the same works that I have done and even greater.” And even greater. When that one new man comes together it will be the devil’s worst nightmare. Jesus said it this way. I love it. You’ve never heard it this way, but this is the way the Messiah says it. John, Chapter 17, Verse 21 and 22, he’s praying and he says, “I pray that they…” Who’s they? There were only two people groups there at that time, Jews and Gentiles. “I pray,” oh you said Baptist? No, they didn’t exist. I’m sorry, ma’am. My goodness. “I pray that they,” Jew and Gentile, “might be one so the world may believe.” So what is at stake on the one new man? So the world will believe. You’re beginning to understand what the devil understands, that the church is just beginning to have the light bulbs come off. And then it goes in the next verse, he says, by the way, “When that happens, the same glory that is on me will be on them.” You got that? Anyone interested? Anyone interested in the same glory that’s on Jesus to be on you? You see what will happen when these two people groups come together? It gets better. You think it can’t? It gets better. You’re going to get it. Okay. Amos, the 9th Chapter, 11th through the 13th Verse, so misunderstood, it says, “On that day I will raise up the Tabernacle of David.” The word “tabernacle” in the Hebrew means “the house” or “the family” of David. “On that day I will raise up the family of David and they will become true Jews.” The word “Jew” comes from a Hebrew word that means “a worshipper of the Living God”, not just a worshipper of history, but a virgin birth of reality. “And in that day,” Amos goes on to describe a revival that the world has never, ever seen. He says that, “The farmers will go out for the harvest. There will be a lush harvest and they will not be able to gather all the fruit until the next harvest is already started.” And there’s never been a harvest like that. You will not be able to contain what’s going to happen when the Tabernacle of David, the family of David, the House of David, is restored through a personal intimacy with the Living God. And the highest calling at this moment is a Gentile Christian, and they do not even know their high calling. Romans 11:11 says, “Salvation has come to the Gentile to provoke the Jew to jealousy.” So you know how you’re going to do it? You get mentored in the supernatural. You do the same works as Jesus and even greater. Did you see what just happened in this studio? Only God knows what happened in the homes throughout the world. So many of you were healed instantly. The End Time book to the church, my favorite book in the Bible. No ma’am, it’s not Revelation. Esther, Hagasa. Let me tell you about Esther. She is a type of the End Time church. Esther was an orphan. Esther or the Church was young and beautiful. Esther was a virgin. I’m going to tell you something, Esther Church, you can have been the biggest streetwalker, prostitute in town. But when Jesus cleansed you he made you a virgin. I want you to know Esther had favor. Esther hid the fact that if you are the Messiah, you are the same as Abraham. See, she hid her Jewish roots. Esther soaked in oil and myrrh for a year to smell nice for the king. Esther equipped the Jewish people with the sword, the word of the Living God. Esther, when she reached out to spare the Jewish people, opened up the door for the greatest Gentile revival in history. That’s why Paul said, “To the Jew first opens a great door to evangelize the Gentile.” Go do it!