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Sid: The Messiah said “You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.”  My guests Betsy and Chester Kylstra were just like you they were born again, they loved God with all of their heart, but there were blockages that were just…and they didn’t even know where they came from.  So God supernaturally began revealing keys to them and over the years they so streamlined this.  But what I’m curious about Betsy and Chester is how did you originally get the revelation for teaching on identity?

Chester:  Yes, it was an amazing thing we had actually been ministering now for several years using the integrated approach in tremendous changes in people lives.  One day we were ministering to this woman who was particularly bound up. We were getting ready to do the deliverance and we’d done the first three areas and we were ready to remove demons and I say to her “We see a real powerful combination here of shame and of fear and of control and we don’t really know how they’re working together and yet it’s clear that they are to really keep you trapped.”  And she looks at me with this sort of innocent face and says “How do they work together?”  And my first thought was “Lady I just told you I don’t know why are you asking me?”  And the next thing I heard come out of my mouth was the explanation of how they work together and I quickly turn to Betsy and say “Right that down, I think God just showed us something.”  But basically through abandonment the devil is able to bring into our lives the questioning “Who am I?”  and “What’s the matter with me?” “Why am I different from other people?”  My different was being a little kid with no father, and all the victim that came with that, so…

Sid: Or it could have been an absent father and mother would have had the same results I believe.

Chester:  Yes, we call it emotional abandonment, when someone grows up in a family where they literally got a father and mother but there is no connection there, really on their own.

Sid: Explain to me what…just define shame, fear, and control.

Chester:  Yeah, we’ll it is an identity issue as you started out, shame says there’s something a matter with me.  We use a phrase it says to us “You are,” it always talks in first person, “I am uniquely and fatally flawed,” I’m unique I’m the only one like this in the whole world, and fatal means I can’t do anything about it.”

Sid: And you know what?  People keep these secrets they think they’re the only ones with these problems and I heard someone say once “Our secrets keep us sick.”

Chester:  Yeah, true because how can our parents understand and I’m the only one like this in the whole world.  And of course a little kid doesn’t know that their parents have the same issue you know and they’re struggling with it.  So it’s a lie of the enemy to keep us isolated from each other and I must say it works quite well.  So that sort of shame uniquely and fatally flawed it’s about who I am as a person. We like to contrast that with guilt because people tend to use the two words synonymously but guilt is…

Sid: Oh, I thought we Jewish people had the corner on the market with guilt; have you ever heard of Jewish guilt? (Laughing)

Betsy:    We have yes.

Chester:    We have yes, we’ve  ministered to it Sid and many people. Guilt is “I did something wrong”  where shame is “I am wrong.” It’s an identity, so anyway being human God has designed for relationship first with Him and then with each other the fear has given place then.  Like “What if people find out that I’m uniquely and fatally flawed, what if they find out I’m different from every body and I got all these problems?”  And we’ve found that it doesn’t matter what the difference is even have red hair and everybody else has black or vice a verse it doesn’t make any  difference what the difference is if there is a difference shame can be given a place.  So the fear arises up it says “What if they find out I’ll lose all my relationships nobody will accept me?”  And so we go into control and give it place to control our situation and when we start out on Monday you were talking about the walls I erected that was part of my control system to keep from being hurt more. You put walls up so we don’t have to interact with other people and they don’t see who we really are.  And we paint a happy face on the outside of the wall and say “This is who I really am.”  You know we go to church “How are you doing?”  Oh, I’m fine, of course there’s no real time to get into it and we go into church but it’s like we wear a mask.

Sid: We’re actors on a stage.

Chester:  Actors on a stage and control can take on lots of different forms, huge number of variety of forms but it’s all shame, all fear, all control.  Like I knew a woman who would invite the family over but she would put name cards out and be very careful not to have anybody sit next to each other who could get into a fight, or who might be angry at each other.  Because then she would be a failed hostess and not be protecting her family.  So control can be what we call nice control, or you’re protecting other people from each other or it can be aggressive mean control.  Or it can be passive and turn inward and keep a person from even engaging in life because the fear of doing something wrong or their inadequacies being exposed.

Sid: People that say “I have a fear of speaking in public.”  They could have tremendous gifts of teaching by God but they’re so sabotaged they’ll never be able to walk into their gifting.

Chester:  Yeah, amen. We say “We need to get healed so we can fulfill the destiny that God’s got before us.”

Sid: Now you talk a lot about ungodly beliefs, tell me a bit about Tim.

Chester:  Okay Tim is in our chapter on ungodly beliefs and he was quite an interesting person, Betsy’s got a word on this.

Betsy:   Well, this was a young man who we met when he had just had a cocaine overdose and he had been gay and was trying to….

Chester:  He was gay.

Betsy:  He had HIV he was HIV positive. A lot of ungodly beliefs about hating himself and that he was trapped and that he would never get free and that his life was just finished.  And this is really an amazing story, as we just felt like the Lord wanted us to lay our hands on his shoulder and pray in the Holy Spirit for him.  The Lord came and changed his identity and he opened his eyes and he began to weep and he said “For the first time in my life I feel like a man.”  Now after that happened his ungodly beliefs about “I hate myself, I’m trapped, etc…

Chester: He had financial issues too.

Betsy:  Financial issues.

Chester: He didn’t think God was going to take care of him.

Betsy:  That God wouldn’t take care of him and those beliefs changed in that encounter and as we confronted him and said “Now you held all these beliefs.”  He repented of those and then he just said “God what do you want me to believe?”  And the Lord gave him the truth about himself, his life, and his circumstances. A very interesting thing about this man Tim, we went to see him when he was dying of AIDS and he was in a home for AIDS patients.  He said to us “Because I know who Yeshua is I am going to declare who he is every day of my life that I have left.”  And that was about twenty years ago, what happened was that little by little God just healed him and he’s still alive and we still hear from him.  So it was just not only God as he aligned himself with God’s truth and changed his belief system.  God’s physical healing took place in his life as well.

Sid: And that’s what I was just going to say, you’re finding people when they take care of these four areas which you call an Integrated Approach, the Sins of the Fathers, and the Curses, the Ungodly Beliefs, the Soul or Spirit Hurts, and the Demonic Oppression.  When they take care of that they get physically healed, like tell me about the woman with a tumor that had a curse.

Betsy:  Okay, this was a woman in her early 40’s who had two teenage children. She had a disease called Von Hippel-Lindau disease.  She had tumors in her cerebellum and in her left eye.  And she was losing her balance, she had had an aunt that had already died of this disease and it was fatal it was a generational disease that ran in her family.  She was already thinking “What are my teenage children going to do without me because I’ll be dead in a few years.”  And as she went through this when they broke the generational sins and curses she began to change, she began to feel different. Then when she got to the end she realized that she wasn’t feeling the same things that she had been feeling in her body.  Where she had been leaning way over to one side now she was beginning to stand up straight and she went back to the doctor and the tumors were gone and in her eyes now the only thing is a tiny bit of scar tissue.  And her mom who wasn’t a Christian sent her a Christmas, this was right before Christmas and her mom who wasn’t a Christian wrote her a card and said “You are a miracle this is just amazing.”  And so we have seen when these areas are taken care of that God… it’s so much easier for the healing that God always wants to give us to actually for us to receive it.

Sid: Well listen 100’s of churches would not have been getting your materials and literally requiring their entire congregation; I mean they’re going to have a healthy congregation.  And how can you believe God with all of your heart which is the only way to have God’s promises activated in your life if you got all these wounds.

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